R.I.P. Gore Vidal

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, to be fair, he did come across as embittered. He was the very archetype of a crotchety old man in his old age, just really smart. It's definitely possible to love and author's works and not be too crazy about the author. Example: Cormac McCarthy. Awesome writer, but kind of a dick.

[Number7]

And what have you read by him?

I haven't, he doesn't appeal to me, I've watched him on tv and read about him in the news and I get the impression that he was a man who being openly gay in Conservative America felt very angry and marginalised. He seemed to imply that it was the whole of Western civilization that was failing to appreciate homosexuality rather than simply the societal prejudice at the time.

[OrphanPip]

I haven't, he doesn't appeal to me, I've watched him on tv and read about him in the news and I get the impression that he was a man who being openly gay in Conservative America felt very angry and marginalised. He seemed to imply that it was the whole of Western civilization that was failing to appreciate homosexuality rather than simply the societal prejudice at the time.

I think that unlikely, Vidal hardly ever wrote about sexuality. Apart from Myra Beckenrige and The City and the Pillar most of his writing (particularly later in life) centred around the role of the statesman and what he saw as the decline of America's Jeffersonian ideals.

[Number7]

I think that unlikely, Vidal hardly ever wrote about sexuality. Apart from Myra Beckenrige and The City and the Pillar most of his writing (particularly later in life) centred around the role of the statesman and what he saw as the decline of America's Jeffersonian ideals.

Yes I gathered that, the whole 'Roman Empire' thing usually follows the same trajectory.

[stlukesguild]

I haven't, he doesn't appeal to me...

How does that make such a decision... especially about a critically acclaimed writer... without reading what he has written?

I've watched him on tv and read about him in the news and I get the impression that he was a man who being openly gay in Conservative America felt very angry and marginalised.

Being openly gay strikes him off the list of writers you might seriously consider reading? Along with Oscar Wilde, Peter Ackroyd, W.H. Auden, Federico García Lorca, Allen Ginsberg, Juan Goytisolo, Wilfred Owen, Jean Genet, Pier Paolo Pasolini, Luis Cernuda, Constantine Cavafy, Marcel Proust, Hugo von Hofmannsthal, Walt Whitman, Maurice Sendak... not to add bi-sexual writers such as William Shakespeare, Paul Verlaine, Herman Melville, Sappho, etc...?

Gore was certainly angry about many things... primary among these was the manner in which he viewed many modern and contemporary political leaders, especially on the extreme right, of abandoning much that he admired about the United States.

He seemed to imply that it was the whole of Western civilization that was failing to appreciate homosexuality rather than simply the societal prejudice at the time.

That may be the impression that you got from watching him on television, but I can't say that such was at all the impression I got from reading any of his books.

[Number7]

I haven't, he doesn't appeal to me...

How does that make such a decision... especially about a critically acclaimed writer... without reading what he has written?

I've watched him on tv and read about him in the news and I get the impression that he was a man who being openly gay in Conservative America felt very angry and marginalised.

Being openly gay strikes him off the list of writers you might seriously consider reading? Along with Oscar Wilde, Peter Ackroyd, W.H. Auden, Federico García Lorca, Allen Ginsberg, Juan Goytisolo, Wilfred Owen, Jean Genet, Pier Paolo Pasolini, Luis Cernuda, Constantine Cavafy, Marcel Proust, Hugo von Hofmannsthal, Walt Whitman, Maurice Sendak... not to add bi-sexual writers such as William Shakespeare, Paul Verlaine, Herman Melville, Sappho, etc...?

Gore was certainly angry about many things... primary among these was the manner in which he viewed many modern and contemporary political leaders, especially on the extreme right, of abandoning much that he admired about the United States.

He seemed to imply that it was the whole of Western civilization that was failing to appreciate homosexuality rather than simply the societal prejudice at the time.

That may be the impression that you got from watching him on television, but I can't say that such was at all the impression I got from reading any of his books.

I'm sure most people have preferences that form decisions about what appeals to them and what doesn't, to make the leap that you're making that I should read Gore Vidal before deciding his style and subject matter doesn't appeal to me is absurd. It would logically follow from such a proposition that you would have to read everything to have a view on what appeals in the first instance, maybe I'm missing out but that's up to me isn't it? I also find US politics boring, there's more to life.

As for the comment about his homosexuality, I wasn't discriminating. I'm gay, I was making the point as I saw it from his interviews and things he's said that he made outlandish statements about the subject like many gay men often do, but especially at a time when the subject was little understood in America.

[stlukesguild]

I'm sure most people have preferences that form decisions about what appeals to them and what doesn't, to make the leap that you're making that I should read Gore Vidal before deciding his style and subject matter doesn't appeal to me is absurd. It would logically follow from such a proposition that you would have to read everything to have a view on what appeals in the first instance, maybe I'm missing out but that's up to me isn't it? I also find US politics boring, there's more to life.

Obviously a choice as to what to read is indeed up to the individual. Nor would I suggest that a writer isn't for you unless you have read him/her (a sort of Catch-22, eh?). What I would suggest is that you probably should read a writer first before making any critical comments on his/her work, and that the writer's personality as revealed through TV appearances is not necessarily an accurate view of all they have to offer. I would suggest that there is much more to Vidal than US politics. Julian, one of his finest novels, is actually set in the Roman Empire.

[Number7]

I'm sure most people have preferences that form decisions about what appeals to them and what doesn't, to make the leap that you're making that I should read Gore Vidal before deciding his style and subject matter doesn't appeal to me is absurd. It would logically follow from such a proposition that you would have to read everything to have a view on what appeals in the first instance, maybe I'm missing out but that's up to me isn't it? I also find US politics boring, there's more to life.

Obviously a choice as to what to read is indeed up to the individual. Nor would I suggest that a writer isn't for you unless you have read him/her (a sort of Catch-22, eh?). What I would suggest is that you probably should read a writer first before making any critical comments on his/her work, and that the writer's personality as revealed through TV appearances is not necessarily an accurate view of all they have to offer. I would suggest that there is much more to Vidal than US politics. Julian, one of his finest novels, is actually set in the Roman Empire.

I wasn't making critical comments, I was expressing my opinion, and I said that he was thorny, which he was. The snooty attempt to patronise me simply doesn't wash by the way.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

How could you know what his style is if you've never read him? Also, he's written outside kf the realm of U.S. Poliics. He explored other countries, and I'm pretty sure a lot of his novels move beyond the strictly political.

Anyways, it's never a good idea to think that just because you don't like a person's character you won't like their writing, because it's quite often that what they write won't be analogous to their personality. I've seen so many times how a comedic writer may be dull in real life, or vice versa. To sum up, you can't decide if you'll like someone's art based on that person.

[stlukesguild]

I wasn't making critical comments, I was expressing my opinion, and I said that he was thorny, which he was. The snooty attempt to patronise me simply doesn't wash by the way.

No one is trying to patronize you. I have little need to impress you or gain your approval. If, on the other hand, you would prefer that I insult you, I am quite adept at that, I can assure you.

By the way... it is somewhat sad that an attempt to recognize the passing of a talented writer has been reduced to a debate as to his relative worth. I must say there have been similar threads devoted to recognizing the passing of other writers... some of whom I didn't care for in the least, yet I tried to avoid making negative comments on such threads. Rather like insulting the dead during the eulogy.

[JuniperWoolf]

Well I'll be, I had no idea Herman Melville was bisexual.

It's definitely possible to love and author's works and not be too crazy about the author. Example: Cormac McCarthy. Awesome writer, but kind of a dick.

Atwood too. I've heard some interviews with her on the radio, what an ice queen.

[Number7]

I wasn't making critical comments, I was expressing my opinion, and I said that he was thorny, which he was. The snooty attempt to patronise me simply doesn't wash by the way.

No one is trying to patronize you. I have little need to impress you or gain your approval. If, on the other hand, you would prefer that I insult you, I am quite adept at that, I can assure you.

By the way... it is somewhat sad that an attempt to recognize the passing of a talented writer has been reduced to a debate as to his relative worth. I must say there have been similar threads devoted to recognizing the passing of other writers... some of whom I didn't care for in the least, yet I tried to avoid making negative comments on such threads. Rather like insulting the dead during the eulogy.

I'm not making any sort of speculative judgement on Vidal's art. I simply said he was a prickly character, as a commentator on US politics, culture and society he may have said many poignant things but some of his views arose from being marginalized in a very Conservative society.

[tonywalt]

Idk, Vidal seemed to appreciate camp and kitsch and would more likely have been amused, he did the Ali G show after all, he didn't take himself totally seriously. Part of his viscous wit was always a public act, he kind of epitomized the caricature of an upper class waspish *****y queen.

True, he became a bit more outlandish (and even a bit too negative on Society) towards the end. Still Sharp as hell though. I suppose, on a very selfish note, it was good to hear the last gasp of the more Northeast (NY to Boston Brahmin) Mid Atlantic accent. And the ironic wit that goes so naturally with that accent.

I am unsure who could fill his shoes today. No one.

[stlukesguild]

Well I'll be, I had no idea Herman Melville was bisexual.

He was married and had 4 kids... but a number of aspects of his writing... including suggestions of the homoerotic... have led a good many modern critics to assume that Melville had homosexual leanings... or even homosexual experiences... perhaps during his younger years as a sailor.

[Seasider]

Today's Guardian had a Gore Vidal quote that I had never read and has not been mentioned in this thread. Vidal was being described as a master of irony, not it was said Americans strongest suit.
Example chosen was his response to Truman Capote's death:

Good career move.
Yes it's ironical and cruel too.