Lucifer/Satan

[Neo_Sephiroth]

@Neo: I respect your view. I tend to believe that Satan doesn't have any power or the ability to act over humanity. It's interesting all this; we could spend writing forever (as many others have done) and might never get an accord. I consider agnostic myself, was raised in catholic family and fell great respect for those to still are in the way, so its Ok to believe the source of evil as one desires, and so the blessings as well.

At the end, we might get the answers. Meanwhile, discuss about this, has been a thrill!

:::Cheers!:::

It has been my honor to discuss this subject with you. I hope we can have more of these discussions. Until next we meet on another thread, cheers!

[cacian]

About Lucifer who could be the direct result of such a creature?
If it is God's making then what would be the reasons for such a deficient nuisance creature?
God surely has better things to do that make life difficult for everyone.
Just a thought there.

[Freudian Monkey]

In one sense we have Lucifer from Isaiah 14:12-14, the one Togre describes, the same that Milton describes which just-so-happens to be my avatar right now which is why I came into this thread in the first place. I tend to use the name "Lucifer" for this version, but to me it's just a character in a really, really good story. I love that story, and Lucifer's eternal, hopeless defiance.

In another sense, historically speaking, Satan is how Christianity characterized paganism and nature worship. I tend to use the word "Satan" for this one, but it's all just symbolism. The Hindu diety Pashupati, the Celtic Stag diety Cernunnos, the Greek god Pan, the Christian goat Satan, and the Neopagan Horned God are all the same thing.

I might even have missed some, but the point is that people from around the world at various points in history inspired each other's imagery and symbolism in terms of the horned-goat-god, but with the eyes of their particular beliefs putting their own spin on it.

So to me, in that one sense of Satan, it is very early Christianity's demonization (literally) and/or fear of nature worship.

Thanks for the insightful account.

I agree that all the different anthropomorphic variations of evil essentially derive from same mythological source, which is the cosmic oneness, harmony or God. The perfect state of the golden age or the paradise then begins to degenerate by forming the first dualisms - man and woman, good and evil etc. In the old testament Lucifer's role didn't seem to be categorically pure evil but rather that of a rebel or a fallen hero like Oedipus who is doomed by his hubris. Later christian theologians transformed him into an all-encompassing evil that was thought to have been responsible for every evil deed right from the beginning - a perfect scapegoat to drive away from amongst the people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oC1rsPVLks

[Neo_Sephiroth]

About Lucifer who could be the direct result of such a creature?
If it is God's making then what would be the reasons for such a deficient nuisance creature?
God surely has better things to do that make life difficult for everyone.
Just a thought there.

True. I wonder that myself sometimes. Perhaps, God did create Lucifer. If so, maybe, just as a child grows up into his/her own person, that's what happened to Lucifer? Lucifer grew up and rebel for whatever the reasons may be, Lucifer rebelled.

We all have freedom of choice. So, perhaps, if there are freedom of choice on Earth there should be freedom of choice in Heaven. Of course, this is not doctrines or whatnot. It's just my thoughts and opinions.

I think there are certainly differences between Heaven and Earth. But could there really be that much of a difference between the two? In my opinion, I think it's simpler than most would imagine.

To me, it's simple logic.

[cacian]

True. I wonder that myself sometimes. Perhaps, God did create Lucifer. If so, maybe, just as a child grows up into his/her own person, that's what happened to Lucifer? Lucifer grew up and rebel for whatever the reasons may be, Lucifer rebelled.

I guess if God did create lucifer then the opposite must be true.
He should be able to uncreate him.
How else would one justify and prove God's power?
The answer is to undo with has been done. That is power.That id God

We all have freedom of choice. So, perhaps, if there are freedom of choice on Earth there should be freedom of choice in Heaven. Of course, this is not doctrines or whatnot. It's just my thoughts and opinions.

I think there are certainly differences between Heaven and Earth. But could there really be that much of a difference between the two? In my opinion, I think it's simpler than most would imagine.

To me, it's simple logic.

I think this idea that heaven only exists if hell does is the same as saying white only exists is black did which we all know is rubbish.
If God set hell as an example to punish his people after they have died why punish them on earth too and scare the life out of them by setting hell as an example?
It does not make sense.
But then to prove his point God with this same power God should be able to undo it and so lucifer is no longer. Why compete with evil when you can have it all and compete with none.
The power to do and the power to undo is where it's at. That is the true meaning of power that is the true meaning of God.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Cacian ~ Again, I do apologize in advance if I say anything that offends anyone in any way. But this is my thoughts and opinions.

I have to ask myself in my mind, "If men and women can't undo their own child/children without killing them...Can God undo Lucifer without killing him as well?" I think God has great and all powers but, perhaps, God is still subject to laws? Not ordinary laws but some kind of divine laws. I don't know what those divine laws are. Divinity is not my specialty. The laws of men, however, I know a tad bit about.

As for hell, I actually don't believe it exist.

[cacian]

Cacian ~ Again, I do apologize in advance if I say anything that offends anyone in any way. But this is my thoughts and opinions.

I have to ask myself in my mind, "If men and women can't undo their own child/children without killing them...Can God undo Lucifer without killing him as well?" I think God has great and all powers but, perhaps, God is still subject to laws? Not ordinary laws but some kind of divine laws. I don't know what those divine laws are. Divinity is not my specialty. The laws of men, however, I know a tad bit about.

As for hell, I actually don't believe it exist.

Hmm that is the power of divinity it just removes it as in rubs out.
A bit like when one scribbles with a pencil and then thinks it is too scruffy so reaches out for the rubber which gets rid of it. Notice it is the rubber that does it not anyone else.
That simple.
Humans however do.
That I guess the difference between a God and a human.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Hmm that is the power of divinity God just removes as in rubs out, a bit like when one scribbles with a pencil and then thinks that is no good so he reaches out for the rubberthat simple.
Humans however do.
That I guess the difference between a God and a human.

Hmmm...I definitely agree that God has that power to do so. I also agree that there is quite a dramatic difference between God and humans. After all, the scriptures does say God create humans. So, for me to say that there is a dramatic difference between God and humans is most definitely an understatement.

However, still, I ponder in my mind..."If God can just rub out the wicked, and there are many in this world...How is it that they are still here?"

That leads me on to ask..."What is stopping God? He has all powers...What could possibly stop Him from doing so?"

Which brings me to these theories and questions...Could it be some forces of law? An eternal law that forbid ls Him to interfere and used His power even though He has that power?

[Freudian Monkey]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

[Neo_Sephiroth]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

That is very profound.

[cacian]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

Omnipotence as oppose to impotance?
The two sounds rather related.
The word final does not make sense because final goes contradicts infinity which we know is where we are at.
''He needs not to exist'' I am afraid is saying ''well I exist and without God then I need not exist too.''
By negating God one must negate themselves too it is the rule of thumb.
To save us? from what ? who is us?
I thought salvation is true Jesus and so where does that leave Jesus and God and the Bible.
Do we deny that too?
One can live in denial but one cannot destroy what has been written.
One cannot destroy a word it is impossible in the same way that one cannot destroy meanings because of memory.
One can burn a book but one cannot get rid off what is been written.

I am not us I did not negate nor did I contradict so I stick out of it.
A proof to who and why?
If the word God exist then what other proof are we looking for?
A bit like saying
The word I does not exist so how do I proof it does not ?
Well I can't because I need to write it to prove it and without the I cannot write.
A catch22?

[Freudian Monkey]

That is very profound.

Comedy is often profound. I'm glad that you liked it.

[cacian]

Comedy is often profound. I'm glad that you liked it.

Hi can I ask what your signature mean?

[Ser Nevarc]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

God is batman?

[cacian]

"It is the final proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us."
- Reverend Mackerel

why does anyone needs to save anybody?
999 can do that.