what attracts you first?

[Emil Miller]

You don't see many people in london anymore with the scruffy look, everyone in london seems to have the short and neat and badass haircuts from the 1930's.

Really? I suggest a journey on the London underground will reveal a very different state of affairs. Shaven heads and tattoos abound, even among the women, and ridiculous 50-year-old teenagers are usually the only ones to be found with the scruffy long hair of their youth protruding from beneath the ubiquitous baseball cap, occasionally accompanied by an 'Elvis Lives' Tee-shirt. Jeans and trainers are still de rigueur for all occasions but among those of the 20-40 age group the woolly hat has replaced the baseball cap and the unshaven look is still in vogue. While the uglification proceeds apace, it is still possible to see well turned out people if one tries hard enough but they are increasingly difficult to detect.

[Alexander III]

Really? I suggest a journey on the London underground will reveal a very different state of affairs. Shaven heads and tattoos abound, even among the women, and ridiculous 50-year-old teenagers are usually the only ones to be found with the scruffy long hair of their youth protruding from beneath the ubiquitous baseball cap, occasionally accompanied by an 'Elvis Lives' Tee-shirt. Jeans and trainers are still de rigueur for all occasions but among those of the 20-40 age group the woolly hat has replaced the baseball cap and the unshaven look is still in vogue. While the uglification proceeds apace, it is still possible to see well turned out people if one tries hard enough but they are increasingly difficult to detect.

Ok fair enough London is big, and the London I know is very small, I don't really frequent the same zones as you most likley. When I go to clubs at night like Jalouse or China White or Madox or Bugis all the 20 somethings have the neat and elegant 1930's hair and they are all in well-cut blazers and suits, and no one ever wears sneakers.

And during the day time I frequent Kensington or Notting Hill as that is wear my friends live, and in the casinos's it the same.

And yes you are right on the tube you see lot's of ugliness but the poor have always been ugly, there has never been a time when they have been beautiful so moot point.

[Darcy88]

Hair, eyes, openness, body, voice, confidence, easygoing-ness. All of these.

[KCurtis]

Ok fair enough London is big, and the London I know is very small, I don't really frequent the same zones as you most likley. When I go to clubs at night like Jalouse or China White or Madox or Bugis all the 20 somethings have the neat and elegant 1930's hair and they are all in well-cut blazers and suits, and no one ever wears sneakers.

Boring-nice and seedy is better.

[/QUOTE]
And yes you are right on the tube you see lot's of ugliness but the poor have always been ugly, there has never been a time when they have been beautiful so moot point.[/QUOTE]

You are kidding, right?

[Emil Miller]

Ok fair enough London is big, and the London I know is very small, I don't really frequent the same zones as you most likley. When I go to clubs at night like Jalouse or China White or Madox or Bugis all the 20 somethings have the neat and elegant 1930's hair and they are all in well-cut blazers and suits, and no one ever wears sneakers.

I'm glad to hear it but will it start to set the trend of well dressed persons that went out of the window with the media manufactured style of the 1960s i.e long hair, tee shirt, jeans and trainers that disfigured the landscape until the much-needed economic crash of 2008 ? I say much-needed because a measure of self-respect is a necessary requirement for a civilized existence, and funny money is the death of civilisation.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

And yes you are right on the tube you see lot's of ugliness but the poor have always been ugly, there has never been a time when they have been beautiful so moot point.

You are kidding, right?

Why would he be kidding? He's right. Maybe it's different in other countries, but here, when the news does a story and it's from a poor area, the people aren't particularly attractive. Even if the person has the potential to be good looking, it's usually squandered by bad teeth, dirty clothes, bad grammar, etc.

And, Emil, I'm curious, how old are you? I'm 25.

[OrphanPip]

Why would he be kidding? He's right. Maybe it's different in other countries, but here, when the news does a story and it's from a poor area, the people aren't particularly attractive. Even if the person has the potential to be good looking, it's usually squandered by bad teeth, dirty clothes, bad grammar, etc.

And, Emil, I'm curious, how old are you? I'm 25.

That depends on whom you're defining as poor. Are they crack heads or are they lower working class? Because most of the people I grew up around had good teeth and weren't particularly unattractive. Then again, dental care for people on welfare and children is free in Quebec.

[paradoxical]

I'm glad to hear it but will it start to set the trend of well dressed persons that went out of the window with the media manufactured style of the 1960s i.e long hair, tee shirt, jeans and trainers that disfigured the landscape until the much-needed economic crash of 2008 ?

Well, that wasn't manufactured by the media but was in fact actual youth rebellion. It is only after a real social movement that those in marketing attempt to catch up and make money off something they don't understand, just like grunge in America. As always, the media, advertising, and others who don't get it are too late.

I'm trying to understand what you meant regarding the economic crash of 2008. Surely you're not saying that was a good thing?

When I go to clubs at night like Jalouse or China White or Madox or Bugis all the 20 somethings have the neat and elegant 1930's hair and they are all in well-cut blazers and suits, and no one ever wears sneakers.

I wonder if you're not actually working class yourself but trying to come across as some upper crust scion who stands to inherit a small fortune when Mummy and Daddy are gone.

And yes you are right on the tube you see lot's of ugliness but the poor have always been ugly...

There are only two or three people on this site who say things like this, and I wonder if they don't do it to get a rise out of people. It also strikes me that they are all probably quite young. Wish I could tell you exactly what I'd like to say.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

That depends on whom you're defining as poor. Are they crack heads or are they lower working class? Because most of the people I grew up around had good teeth and weren't particularly unattractive. Then again, dental care for people on welfare and children is free in Quebec.

I'm talking poor poor, like the ghettos, people on crack, etc. Heck, where I live, there're plenty of areas where people just choose to look like trailer park trash. So, I guess you're right, most people choose to look the way they do, though I think there's still a correlation. I'm not trying to demean anyone here, I'm just commenting on what I've observed.

[Varenne Rodin]

So, horribly far gone drug addicts are ugly. It has nothing to do with being poor. In California, a poor person can live relatively similarly to a wealthy person. I grew up below the poverty line. I worked and studied my way out of it. I have always been clean, well mannered, sophisticated and healthy with a carefully cultivated physical appearance. Let's not rush to judge people who are born into a battle with class systems.

So many extremely attractive pop stars and actors were plucked out of ghettos. Tennessee is one of the poorest states in our nation, with Memphis being largely ignored in the state's budget plans, and it seems to consistently produce some of the most attractive people I have ever seen. Seth Green's wife Clare Grant is a terrific example.

In contrast, there are so many ugly wealthy people. All of the money in the world can't make them pretty. Donald Trump. Rush Limbaugh. Penny Marshall. Rosie O'Donnell.

This is obvious, right?

[qimissung]

I work with a lot of kids who are considered low socio-economic, and they are generally quite beautiful. But I do know what you mean, Alexander. Their parent's hard lives are stamped on their faces.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I guess you're right. Ugly people are everywhere. Still, I've never encountered an attractive street bum. Ever.

[Varenne Rodin]

Some people think Jewel is attractive, some people don't. She was homeless for years, playing folk music for coins downtown San Diego. She would sometimes sleep at a shelter my friend worked at. Eventually she slept in a van. Michael J. Fox was also homeless when he landed his role on Family Ties. At some point he started renting a shabby apartment. He had no phone. He had to wait next to a pay phone all day every day to find out important job related info.

[Alexander III]

I'm glad to hear it but will it start to set the trend of well dressed persons that went out of the window with the media manufactured style of the 1960s i.e long hair, tee shirt, jeans and trainers that disfigured the landscape until the much-needed economic crash of 2008 ? I say much-needed because a measure of self-respect is a necessary requirement for a civilized existence, and funny money is the death of civilisation.

I have good new for you, there is a huge reversal going on right now. For instance at university we have plenty of funny scenarios were in most lectures the lecturers and dressed in jeans and a polo shirt and sneakers and plenty of the student are in blazers and slacks and nice shoes. There is a rise in elegance, just as in the 60's there was a clothing rebellion against the standard order of conformity, now there is the same thing happening again, except the uniform of conformity is now t-shirt, jeans, and sneakers.

At uni plenty of guys I know buy blazers and sport coats and go to tailors to get them adjusted, and this is a new practice as I was talking to some of my cousins who went to university in the 90's both in Italy and in england and they all told me the standard was t-shirt and jeans, but now wandering the universities and the people of english and Italian universities there is a re-emergance of beautiful dress. Just look at Hollywood, has anyone else noticed that there has started to grow an obsession with the sartorially beautiful which was non-existant 20 years ago.

Why would he be kidding? He's right. Maybe it's different in other countries, but here, when the news does a story and it's from a poor area, the people aren't particularly attractive. Even if the person has the potential to be good looking, it's usually squandered by bad teeth, dirty clothes, bad grammar, etc.

And, Emil, I'm curious, how old are you? I'm 25.

I didn't think I was going to spark up a debate, because it seemed obvious to me. Besides considering me and emil were talking not about facial features but about manners of dress and cleanliness and hair, it is obvious that I was talking about beauty in that sense. A man who can barley reach the end of the month and have enough money left for food is not going to have beautiful clothes for him and his children, he is not going to take them to salons to get their hair cut, he is not going to give a **** about many affectations which people with more money and more leisure time devote themselves too.

Surely one must have a very distorted perception of reality to assume that the poor are just as beautiful as the middle and higher classes. The latter have leisure time and money to devote themselves to pursuing beauty, and higher standards are expected of them socially, while for the poor there are no high social expectations, it is normal being obese and having Walmart clothes.

Im 19, 20 in a few months - and I believe Emil is double my age.

That depends on whom you're defining as poor. Are they crack heads or are they lower working class? Because most of the people I grew up around had good teeth and weren't particularly unattractive. Then again, dental care for people on welfare and children is free in Quebec.

Free health care in normal in every civilized nation except the US and now Greece. Besides statistically poverty=obesity in the first world. Also I was not talking about beauty of facial features which one is born with. A bum can have amazing facial features.

I'm trying to understand what you meant regarding the economic crash of 2008. Surely you're not saying that was a good thing?



I wonder if you're not actually working class yourself but trying to come across as some upper crust scion who stands to inherit a small fortune when Mummy and Daddy are gone.



There are only two or three people on this site who say things like this, and I wonder if they don't do it to get a rise out of people. It also strikes me that they are all probably quite young. Wish I could tell you exactly what I'd like to say.

1) he meant the economic crash has a positive aspect of sobering us up, we in the west have been essentially living in a fantasy land for the last 60 years and the crash woke us up to reality.

2) Sure why not, I could be working class, I have several working class friends.

3) nothing I said was radical, in fact the opposite believe of what I said seems very radical and detached from reality. You surly can't think we live in a world were money doesn't matter and we all live happy and equal holding hands and skipping along as the billionaire and the Mcdonald's empty lead the same lives.

I work with a lot of kids who are considered low socio-economic, and they are generally quite beautiful. But I do know what you mean, Alexander. Their parent's hard lives are stamped on their faces.

I was never talking about facial features, that is determined by birth, I was talking about everything determined post-birth, and yes I think you are quite right, having parents under constant stress because they can't pay the bills or growing up in an environment of leisure and serenity have drastic differences for a child.

[Alexander III]

I guess you're right. Ugly people are everywhere. Still, I've never encountered an attractive street bum. Ever.

That is true, the old proverb you can lead a donkey to water but you can't make it drink. Many people have the water but don't wish to drink.