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Thread: "It's" vs. "Its"

  1. #61
    Liberate Babyguile's Avatar
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    -----
    'Anger's my meat; I sup upon myself,
    And so shall starve with feeding.'
    Volumnia in Coriolanus

  2. #62
    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade View Post
    I spent hours trying to understand the function of "whom" so I shan't be giving up on it so quickly.
    "Who" is the subject; "whom" is the object.

    "Who did you go with?"

    "You went with whom?"
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  3. #63
    running amok Sancho's Avatar
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    Well then, there you go. And speaking of which:

    There’s a fine history of grammar in rock-n-roll. In addition to the aforementioned Clash tune, my other favorite comes from Pink Floyd. I really hate to paint any large group of people with too broad a brush, or to point my finger across the pond, but in this case it’s a good thing, so I’ll go ahead. There seems to be a national obsession over there for grammatical correctness and a penchant amongst the rock-n-roll bands for creating rock operas. Over here we have a more cavalier attitude towards grammar and favor tunes you can dance to.

    Anyway, I always liked the contrast between Waters/Gilmore and the school children’s chorus in: Just Another Brick in the Wall.

    Waters/Gilmore:
    We don’t need no education
    We don’t need no thought control
    No dark sarcasm in the classroom
    Hey, teacher, leave them kids alone

    The school-children’s chorus:
    We don’t need no education
    We don’t need no thought control
    No dark sarcasm in the classroom
    Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone

    It’s almost as if the school kids couldn’t quite bring themselves to confuse a subjective pronoun with an objective pronoun. That’s how I hear it, anyway. I’m sure the chorus was recorded separately in a studio and then mixed in with the band’s music later, so it probably wasn’t planned. And, of course, there were several out-takes. In the movie version, the kids say – Leave us kids alone. But on the album, I hear, quite clearly – Leave those kids alone.

    At any rate, in America we’d’ve avoided the whole problem. Over here, it’s the school kids who abuse the teachers. “Silly teacher. If you don’t eat your meat, you can’t have any pudding!” And as for the Clash tune, it’d’ve turned out something like this: “’xactly who I ‘spoda be”
    Some people call me Maurice
    'Cos I speak of the pompatus of love

  4. #64
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Well... How 'bout them apples?
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    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
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  5. #65
    running amok Sancho's Avatar
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    Hmmm-Hmmm and them peaches too, which are starting to bloom around here.
    Some people call me Maurice
    'Cos I speak of the pompatus of love

  6. #66
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    As for "who vs. whom." I have my own method of determining which to use that works pretty well for me. I get all the "if it's an object, use 'whom'" stuff, but that's always struck me as a but complicated compared to my method. Basically, of you can answer the sentence as if it were a question with "he" or "they," use "who," and if you can answer with "him" or "them," use "whom." I use "him" and "he" rather than "her" and "she" because since "him" ends with a -m, you know it should be "whom" since it also ends with an -m.

    For example.

    - Who went to the store?

    He/they went to the store.

    - Whom did they go to the store with?

    They went to the store with him/them.

  7. #67
    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
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    I like that method. And welcome back.
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calidore View Post
    I like that method. And welcome back.
    Thanks.

  9. #69
    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    Behold, he hath risen!

    And indeed, that is completely right and amounts to the same thing as the subject object-rule.

    Therefore, Calidore's former post is wrong. It is 'Whom did you go with?' because you should also say, 'With whom did you go?'.

    It is not because the preposition (with) is now at the other end of the ssntence, that 'who' and 'with' do not essentially belong together and so whom stays the same.

    The confusion mounts when 'who' is at the beginning of the sentence (normally we start with the subject - he for example) and does not have a preposition immediately in front of it. So people do not decline it where it should be done.

    I like to be pedantic .
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

  10. #70
    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
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    Welll, that just shows how long it's been since I've been in school. And me raised by an English teacher.

    So, instead: "Who is on first!"
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  11. #71
    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    Oh, my, and I'm only 30 .
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

  12. #72
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Phew.

    Never expected "whom/who" to bring about so much discussion.

    I haven't had much problem with this since I was shown on a blackboard (yes, blackboard!) with couple of sentences similar to MM's examples.

    The subject/object difference does the trick for me, personally.
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  13. #73
    Liberate Babyguile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calidore View Post
    "Who" is the subject; "whom" is the object.

    "Who did you go with?"

    "You went with whom?"
    Both of those examples should use 'whom'. Use the method of him (whom)/he (who) mentioned before.
    'Anger's my meat; I sup upon myself,
    And so shall starve with feeding.'
    Volumnia in Coriolanus

  14. #74
    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
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    Just thought, does this mean George Thorogood should have sung "Whom Do You Love?"
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiki1982 View Post
    Behold, he hath risen!

    And indeed, that is completely right and amounts to the same thing as the subject object-rule.

    Therefore, Calidore's former post is wrong. It is 'Whom did you go with?' because you should also say, 'With whom did you go?'.

    It is not because the preposition (with) is now at the other end of the ssntence, that 'who' and 'with' do not essentially belong together and so whom stays the same.

    The confusion mounts when 'who' is at the beginning of the sentence (normally we start with the subject - he for example) and does not have a preposition immediately in front of it. So people do not decline it where it should be done.

    I like to be pedantic .
    One more time with the Winston Churchill anecdote. When the PM was criticized for ending a sentence with a preposition, he replied, "Madame, this is one pendantry up with which I will not put!"

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