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Thread: Are Poets Born Not Made?

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    EDIT: Well, allow me to address this, since it's the only part that doesn't resemble the ravings of a sad and desperate man:
    Okay, idiot, we are now officially at odds. I'm so sick of your uneducated, overconfident person pretending to have half a clue about what he's saying. Oh, so you think the Romantic poets are aptly described as "intellectual" when they were, in fact, rebelling against the intellectualism of the Enlightenment? The problem isn't that you're wrong about whether poets are made or born or what "intellectual" means, but rather that you need to go back and finish junior college. Or are you too busy playing poker?

    You're a joke, man. You obviously have a Wikipedia education in literature and logic. You can't even use a dictionary properly or even make any point without resorting to fallacious reasoning.

    You're equivocating plain and simple. I have pointed this out to you, but you insist on continuing to do so. You keep trying to appropriate Keats, perhaps the archetypal Romantic, into your implausible revision of literary history, simply to win an argument on the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    If I know of anyone who dedicates a large amount of time to reading, learning, studying literature, even if completely informally, then I'd call them an intellectual.
    If I know of anyone who dedicates a large amount of time to perverting the language just so he can be right about some non-issue, then I'd call him a dumb ***. No one cares about what some uninformed yahoo considers intellectual; people care about established conventions of language that allow them to address other persons--including uninformed yahoos. Calling Keats an intellectual because he used his brain is like calling Voltaire a Romantic because he had feelings.

    Consider:

    Changes in society, beginning in the 18th century and continuing into our own time, underlie the romantic movement. It starts as a reaction against the intellectualism of the Enlightenment, against the rigidity of social structures protecting privilege, and against the materialism of an age which, in the first stirring of the Industrial Revolution, already shows signs of making workers the slaves of machinery and of creating squalid urban environments.

    http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/...#ixzz1wAYZMT1L

    "Romanticism" is the label for a literary-philosophical-artistic-musical-political movement which is often seen primarily as a rebellion against the stifling intellectualism and rigid logic of the Enlightenment

    http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/hum_303/humintro.html


    Get over yourself, scrub. You're wrong. Again. Now go cry in the corner. And then fill out the application for the community college.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Look, you started the thread about "born" VS "made" poets, and you clearly consider yourself to be more in the "born poet" mold, if at all, and the only definition I've gotten out of you about the difference is that "born" poets use their moods, emotions, and sensibilities. Where am I wrong? You've given me nothing else to go on.
    If you can't determine what Miyako meant in the post in question, then it's a problem with your reading, not Miyako's writing. For Chrissake, J, for whom English is a second language, understood it perfectly. Why can't you, as a native speaker, do the same?

    We all know the answer. You are CONSTITUTIONALLY INCAPABLE of admitting you were wrong. You're a narcissist with some massive insecurity about art and culture. You have some big vendetta against Miyako, presumably, because she suggested you were wrong previously. And so you have no recourse but to demonstrate the inadequacies of your public school education in attempt to discredit her.

    They have a name when for when you purposely misrepresent what someone says.

    Straw Man
    You commit the straw man fallacy whenever you attribute an easily refuted position to your opponent, one that the opponent wouldn’t endorse, and then proceed to attack the easily refuted position (the straw man) believing you have undermined the opponent’s actual position. If the misrepresentation is on purpose, then the straw man fallacy is caused by lying.


    http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#StrawMan

    I demand you cite where Miyako claimed that emotions were alone sufficient for the writing of poetry. Can't do it? I wonder why.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post

    So, again, follow the chain of events:

    2. You *seem* to be defending Vendler by claiming she's not a formalist, and that I should "read her books," and I would see she isn't one.
    Fallacy

    1. Miyako says Vendler isn't a formalist.
    Therefore, Miyako is defending Vendler

    Consider:

    Non Sequitur
    When a conclusion is supported only by extremely weak reasons or by irrelevant reasons, the argument is fallacious and is said to be a non sequitur.


    http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#NonSequitur

    You *seem* to have this sophomoric notion that including the word "seem" in an indictment excuses you from your logical responsibilities. In this, you are wrong.

    Consider this similar fallacy:

    1. Morpheus is attacking Miyako.
    2. Therefore, Morpheus seems to hate Miyako.

    The inclusion of "seem" does not avoid the error

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    It *seems* like a case of sour grapes, like, initially, you thought Vendler was on YOUR side, she wasn't a formalist, then when you realized she actually did what I did, you had to turn against her, so you found Schneider's terrible article.
    It "seems" as though you want to kill Miyako. It "seems" as though you're the type of person who hangs corpses in his closet. It "seems" as though you might cannibalize children.

    What's the matter? I said "seems".


    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    It's called having eyes and a brain. I don't think anyone would take Schneider seriously after reading his exchange with Patrick on PoemShape. Schneider is actually a competent film critic, but he's woefully outmatched when it comes to poetry.
    Says the guy who thinks Keats was a big intellectual, metaphysics is medieval voodoo and the laws of logic and mathematics can, in no way, exist outside the physical universe. So if we can write Schneider off on the grounds of an exchange he had on the internet, then, surely, we can write you off too.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    people care about established conventions of language that allow them to address other persons
    You mean established conventions like those in the dictionaries that I cited that wasn't good enough for you? You know someone is desperate when they have to keep harping at someone over a choice of one word even when that person has gone to great lengths to explain precisely what they mean by that word that has several VALID definitions, one of which said person was using. But, never mind, you'd obviously rather prove my usage of the word intellectual was wrong (even if it wasn't) than actually grasp what I meant by the word and discuss whether or not it applies to certain poets. You keep calling ME a narcissist, but how narcissistic do you have to be to pretend like you are the ultimate arbiter of language and definitions? That because someone is using a word in a different way than you typically use it they must be ignorant, uneducated, and wrong, rather than you just misunderstanding how they were using it? I find it amazing that it's only you and JCamilo that has taken issue with it; everyone else seemed to understand me and my usage of it just fine, perhaps because they could grasp how I was using it in the context of poets learning the craft, so they took it to mean precisely that.

    Anyway, let miyako answer for herself. SHE'S the one that started the thread with the "made" VS "born" poets dichotomy, and, thus far, I haven't read what distinction she's trying to make. If you notice, immediately after she mentioned the whole moods, emotions, sensitivity bit, I asked her, quite plainly, why is it that everyone with their own inborn moods, et al. can't write like the great poets, to which she still hasn't responded. Even Mutatis pressed her on this for a couple of posts, elaborating on my point that even though everyone has these feelings, not everyone can write good/great poetry, and she never, ever answered, eventually ending with: "Mutatis, I give up... to your control. I'm weak. hehehe " I even asked her again, after she started stressing how unique everyone's emotions/feelings are: "So everyone is a unique little snowflake; so why are some people better writers than others?"

    Maybe if we're all terribly misreading poor miyako it's because she hasn't really taken the trouble to lay out precisely what she means by "made" VS "born" poets. Frankly, I don't think her sense of the two is much different than what I laid out in my last post with Person A and Person B (that, of course, you completely ignored). My entire point is, and has been since the beginning of this thread, that I don't know of many (perhaps any) poets that are considered "great" that took the Person A route, though I know plenty who took the Person B route and many more who took the in-between route.

    By the way, why is it that Stlukes can say: "I stated earlier that I am not limiting learning to formal academic study... Early on in this debate others suggested that art was the result of combination of the learned (not to be interpreted as only meaning that learned in a formal, academic setting)..." yet when I said the same thing (in fact, I was one of the "others" suggesting that earlier in the thread) you felt compelled to jump all over me? Apparently, when Stlukes points out that there are multiple valid definitions of a word, and he's using it in a particular way, that's fine and dandy with you. I do that, and I'm committing some great evil against the English language.

    By the way again, I never claimed you and/or J were "wrong," (J even said that he didn't feel he and I were differing and was merely using the word in different ways; if he could admit that, why can't you?) what I claimed was, quite clearly, we were all using different definitions of the word "intellectual." Here's an easy example taken from a classic: If a tree falls in a forest (you know the rest):

    Person A: It doesn't make a sound because nobody hears it.
    Person B: It does make a sound because it sends vibrations through the air.

    Both seem to be disagreeing by stating opposite sides of the "it does/doesn't make a sound," but they're both actually right because they're simply using "sound" in different ways (one being an auditory experience, the other being acoustic vibrations). Similarly, what happened in this thread was I was using intellectual in precisely the way I've repeatedly outlined, while you and JCamilo were reading my usage and thinking of the word in different ways. You were not WRONG to do that, anymore than I was WRONG to do what I did.

    But what you ARE WRONG about is continuing the dispute over the word even when I've clarified what I meant by it, and that that meaning is, indeed, a common usage that's in the dictionary. I did not make it up, I did not clearly use it in a different way THEN to how I'm saying I'm using it NOW. I've been consistent, and that consistency has support from numerous dictionaries. That you can't accept it testifies to your obstinacy with regards to proving I was wrong about something. If you're that desperate, latch on like a bulldog to the fact I stated that "innate intellectual" was an admittedly bad term, but quit harping on this one freaking word. You know (now) what I meant by it, so if you were really concerned about discussing anything (rather than just being concerned about "winning") then you would've moved on to actually discussing if Keats (or any other poets you choose) fit under that usage or not. That Keats and the Romantics were not "intellectuals" in the same way as the Enlightenment poets is obvious, but that they were not "intellectuals" in other ways is what's in dispute. You can't just arbitrarily choose one definition of a word, say someone is not that under that particular definition, and then claim they're not that under any other definition.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    You mean established conventions like those in the dictionaries that I cited that wasn't good enough for you?
    You mean the definitions that demonstrated you didn't understand them since you missed that they hinged upon the inclusion of the word "intellect" whichi was the very point of contention? Dur....


    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Anyway, let miyako answer for herself.
    I'll say what I want to--especially when it involves one person making fallacious accusations against another for the sole purpose of trying to shame her.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    By the way, why is it that Stlukes can say: "I stated earlier that I am not limiting learning to formal academic study... Early on in this debate others suggested that art was the result of combination of the learned (not to be interpreted as only meaning that learned in a formal, academic setting)..." yet when I said the same thing (in fact, I was one of the "others" suggesting that earlier in the thread) you felt compelled to jump all over me? Apparently, when Stlukes points out that there are multiple valid definitions of a word, and he's using it in a particular way, that's fine and dandy with you. I do that, and I'm committing some great evil against the English language.
    Why do I act differently with StLukes? Because StLukes doesn't insist upon arguing an equivocation. He says "okay, perhaps study isn't the right word"; he doesn't say "no, study is exactly the right word and here's why." Besides the disagreement over "study" is minor compared to the disagreement over "intellectual." StLukes also isn't trying to bully the terms of the conversation by equivocating.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    But what you ARE WRONG about is continuing the dispute over the word even when I've clarified what I meant by it, and that that meaning is, indeed, a common usage that's in the dictionary. I did not make it up,
    No, you did not make up the word "intellectual", you simply misused it. You also quoted a dictionary that demonstrated the error without you realizing it. You missed the fact that the point of contention was over what we meant by "intellect", which was itself used in the definition you cited. Dur...

    I am continuing to dispute the usage of the word because you are still trying to co opt the terms of the conversation with it. You are trying to suggest that Keats was a "made" poet because he viewed poetry intellectually. Concede, and I'll stop kicking your butt.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    You can't just arbitrarily choose one definition of a word,
    I'm not arbitrarily choosing one definition, dolt. I am using the connotation of the word, which everyone besides you understands. You can't understand this just as you can't understand the friggin dictionary definition you, yourself, cited, just as you couldn't understand the Wikipedia article you, yourself, cited. Talking to you is like talking to an obstinate five year old.

    You're wrong; you lose; get over it.
    Last edited by stuntpickle; 05-28-2012 at 10:50 AM.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    You mean the definitions that demonstrated you didn't understand them since you missed that they hinged upon the inclusion of the word "intellect" which was the very point of contention?
    "Intellect" was not the point of contention, "intellectual" was (I went back and CTRL+F the first several pages just to confirm this, and "intellect" was never mentioned, while "intellectual" was mentioned frequently). That "intellectual" has the root word "intellect" does not mean that the two are identical. The fact that every dictionary has two separate entries for both terms, and that they are slightly different should be proof of that. Again, Merriam-Webster says quite plainly:

    a : given to study, reflection, and speculation
    b : engaged in activity requiring the creative use of the intellect <intellectual playwrights>

    Here's their entry for "intellectual defined for English-language learners:"

    2. intellectual noun
    [count] : a smart person who enjoys serious study and thought

    That is pretty damned unambiguous. That you're trying to impose the root word "intellect" on to these two is just you playing dictionary dictator.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    He says "okay, perhaps study isn't the right word";
    Way to cut off his quote. Try again, here's what he said: "study may not be the best word if we take it to mean formal study... but I stated earlier that I am not limiting learning to formal academic study."

    So, allow me to appropriate stluke's qualification: "intellectual may not be the best word if we take it to mean only those who have formally studied and learned poetry... but I stated earlier that I am not limiting intellectual to formal academic study. Ironically, I said almost this exact same way earlier in the thread and, again, that wasn't good enough for you (though it is when stlukes does it).

    Gee, that was easy. So we're cool now?

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    You are trying to suggest that Keats was a "made" poet because he viewed poetry intellectually.
    Keats is not the same Keats we know without his years of studying and critically thinking about the classics and his contemporaries, and even about his own work in terms of what worked and what didn't, as well as about the various aesthetic theories he expressed both inside and outside of his poetry. He wasn't "born" with any of that, and if you want to say it's not the product of formal learning, then I'd agree. If you want to say it's all the product of intuition and instincts then I'd disagree, as he was clearly conscious about many of these ideas. If you want to talk about whether his learning was "intellectual" it would all depend on which definition you pick. My original argument is that one can grasp something intuitive, and then think on it enough until it emerges as an intellectual concept that is rational. I'd suggest even most of the theories offered in formal learning have their roots in that kind of intuitive-to-intellectual progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    I am using the connotation of the word, which everyone besides you understands.
    And I am using one of the denotations of the word, which everyone but you understands. Again, you don't get to arbitrarily pick a connotation and claim I'm an idiot for using a different denotation.

    You're wrong; you lose; get over it. (Gee, that accomplished a lot).
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    "Intellect" was not the point of contention,
    HAHA! What an idiot. You're right. The root word had nothing to do with the actual word, even if we were all trying to point out the essence of the root word, and there were several posts explicitly discussing the distinction between mind and heart, rationality and emotion. What could "intellect" have to do with that? God, man, if you were any dumber you couldn't breathe.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    That "intellectual" has the root word "intellect" does not mean that the two are identical.
    The point of contention is whether intellectual properly connotes a reliance on reason as opposed to emotion, which is a problem still contained in the root word. Gee, over-reliance on literal interpretations and a preference for denotation over connotation. Your poetic future is BRIGHT!

    For your edification: the point of contention isn't the word "intellectual", moron, but what we mean by it, which is still a problem with any definition using the root word. Durrr.....

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    So we're cool now?
    I'll doubt I'll ever be cool with some second-rate obfuscator whose only skill is confusing himself. You're an idiot who understands nothing of logic or language.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Keats is not the same Keats we know without his years of studying and critically thinking about the classics and his contemporaries,
    Spare me the idiocy of you continuing to argue that Keats was some big intellectual. You're talking to someone whose primary emphasis in study concerned the English Romantics. I have little interest in watching some dolt try to appropriate them into his hilarious argument.

    1. Keats was smart.
    Therefore, Keats was an intellectual.

    1. Keats read lots poetry.
    Therefore, Keats was an intellectual.

    1. Keats thought a lot about poetry.
    Therefore, Keats was an intellectual.

    1. Keats said some interesting things about poetry.
    Therefore, Keats was an intellectual.

    Fallacy. Fallacy. Fallacy.

    Dude, you're hilarious.

    If it's simply a disagreement about what intellectual means, then why are you so insistent about continuing the argument?

    Oh! Oh! I know! Because you're a narcissist who can never concede a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    And I am using one of the denotations of the word,
    I hear it's only the good poets who care about denotation. Good luck. Hope the poker thing works out.
    Last edited by stuntpickle; 05-28-2012 at 11:52 AM.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    The root word had nothing to do with the actual word,
    Welcome to language. That happens sometimes. I'm sure you'll learn to accept it some day.

    If you want to have fun with root words, the root words of "intuitive" comes from "intueri" which means "to look at, to consider." "Intellect" comes from "intellectus" which means "discernment, understanding." I wonder how someone "understands" something without "considering" that something? Likewise, did you know that intuition and tuition share the same root word of "tueri" which means "too look at, watch over." Do you want to claim that intuition and tuition have the same meaning like intellect and intellectual because they share a root word?

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    even if we were all trying to point out the essence of the root word,
    I didn't notice any until you showed up. Again, those first several pages the entire discussion over the classification of "intellectual," not "intellect."

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    The point of contention is whether intellectual properly connotes a reliance on reason as opposed to emotion, which is a problem still contained in the root word.
    No, the point of contention is over what kind of learning and thought it requires for one to be considered an intellectual. Even JCamilo admitted this: "I was using intellectual as the class of person, the scholar, academic." I even noted this afterwards: "now it seems we've shifted to discussing exactly what constitutes an intellectual artist... I think the distinction I've been trying to make is between intellectual and academic/critic, but another distinction would have to be drawn between intellectual and just "everyday thinker" or "every product of our minds" as well... most "everyday learners" do not come up with something like "Negative Capability," which is the product of much reading and reflection. But because it was done outside of the academy, it couldn't be said to be "academic" either, so "intellectual," to me, seems the right way to describe it."

    I mean, I think J summed it up better than you did: "I told you we do not have much disagreement... Afterwards we developed this discussion with two pararel topics, because I found the use of the world intellectual confusing... But as I said, I can see what you want to mean and there is no need for wasting time with vocabulary discussions, considering in the end we are not claiming poets are born writing poetry... Either way, I do think you are presenting with a very specific kind of poet (or artist) but our disagreements seems to be so small relating this thread that it is better we wait another oportunity to discuss it as we are not leaving the site so soon."

    After that, J and I basically settled (as far as I was concerned) whatever disagreement we had. He admitted that he was using "intellectual" to mean "academic, scholar," I expressed I was not using it to mean this, but what I stated. J understood my usage, and even if he didn't think that usage was appropriate it, he simply moved on once he understood what I meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    For your edification: the point of contention isn't the word "intellectual", moron, but what we mean by it
    Duh, and I pointed to several dictionaries that explain what I mean by it and for some reason only you're privy to, you won't accept their definition or mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    1. Keats was smart.
    Therefore, Keats was an intellectual.

    1. Keats read lots poetry.
    Therefore, Keats was an intellectual.

    1. Keats thought a lot about poetry.
    Therefore, Keats was an intellectual.

    1. Keats said some interesting things about poetry.
    Therefore, Keats was an intellectual.

    Fallacy. Fallacy. Fallacy.
    So I take it you disagree with Merriam-Webster, then?

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    If it's simply a disagreement about what intellectual means, then why are you so insistent about continuing the argument?
    I could ask you the same thing. The only reason I keep continuing is because you won't accept that, by golly, I'm using a word in one of the ways in which a dictionary defines it and, by golly, the initial debate was with someone who was using the word differently and, by golly, we were both using it in completely valid (merely different) ways. That you feel the need to insist someone is "right" and "wrong" rather than that were was simply a misunderstanding that was cleared up by our clarifying what we meant is a reflection on your narcissistic need to "win" the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    Hope the poker thing works out.
    It bought me my house, a high end audio system, a decent home theater, lots of CDs, lots of books, lots of movies, and lots of free time to read, listen, watch, study, and debate with fine folks like yourself. Not bad for a guy that's such an idiot, eh?
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

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  7. #232
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    I don't want to join in this ruckus, so spare me. I have no more patience for this. I tried to shape this thread by injecting different line of thoughts, so we could have a rich conversation about the topic, but, unfortunately, I failed. The title of this thread should have been about "intellectual" since the latter got more attention.

    This is not to side with Stunt. Morpheus, you have the passion for argument, but your logical reasoning skill is either lacking or non-existent. I have been pointing your misreadings again and again. Fallacies turn readers off. That you speak English and know the topic is not enough in an argument. You have to know logic. How can you communicate if your understanding of things is fallacious? There's still time. Read.
    Last edited by miyako73; 05-28-2012 at 02:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miyako73 View Post
    your logical reasoning skill is either lacking or non-existent. I have been pointing your misreadings again and again.


    What about all of YOUR misreadings? Those don't count?

    I have asked you countless times in this thread to clarify what you mean by "born" VS "made," and you have repeatedly declined, even when it came to Mutatis asking and stlukes asking. Nobody has been able to get a straight answer from you. The MOST we got was your spiel about emotions, sensibilities, etc. at which point I assumed that's what you meant by "made" since, afterall, that IS what the thread was about.

    Plus, I truly wonder how much better my "reasoning skills" need to be when one debate is over a misunderstanding about the usage of a word and I point out that the way I was using it is listed in multiple dictionaries, and that we (me and J, then me and stunt) were just using it in different ways. Now you're just clinging onto to stunt's vacuous accusations about my (non-existent) fallacies and supposed lack of knowledge regarding logic, all of which have been predicated on gross misreadings of what I was saying. If there's anyone you should accuse of misreading, it's stunt. I could point out at least 10 examples in this thread alone.
    Last edited by MorpheusSandman; 05-28-2012 at 02:30 PM.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Welcome to language. That happens sometimes. I'm sure you'll learn to accept it some day.
    Don't pretend to instruct me in language, ignoramus.



    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    If you want to have fun with root words, the root words of "intuitive" comes from "intueri" which means "to look at, to consider." "Intellect" comes from "intellectus" which means "discernment, understanding." I wonder how someone "understands" something without "considering" that something? Likewise, did you know that intuition and tuition share the same root word of "tueri" which means "too look at, watch over." Do you want to claim that intuition and tuition have the same meaning like intellect and intellectual because they share a root word?
    The above is an example of another straw man argument. I was not claiming that words adhere to their original derivations or to this or that latinate root. You're arguing against a claim no one is making due to your perennial problem of conveniently misconstruing what others say. This is the same thing that you're doing to Miyako, and it's not simply I who am recognizing it. You're also again guilty of equivocation.

    First, there can be no debate on simply a subject. Resolved: intellectual.....? That's a rhetorical vacuum that none can approach. Resolved: "intellectual" means X, however, can be a point of contention.

    Sophomoric mistake #1:

    You misunderstand that we can simply be arguing over a word like "intellectual" or "intellect." The truth is the problem we're having relates directly to both words because they concern the same idea. Let's go ahead and dismantle your elementary school error by listing the primary definition MW offers:

    a : of or relating to the intellect or its use

    This is a common rhetorical flourish employed by all dictionaries: of, relating to, pertaining to X, which is appropriate when a word is the adjectival form derived from a noun.

    The first sign of a second-rate mind is when someone pretends that a rudimentary reference can wholly adjudicate a disagreement. This is what happens when 4th graders disagree: one of them looks up a word in the dictionary and says "See, I told you." I can already anticipate your second-rate obfuscator's mind: You're about to say "But you cited the dictionary first." Of course, but I used it in the appropriate fashion.

    You see, you clearly demonstrate that you don't know how to use a dictionary when you completely ignore the essence of a word in favor of some secondary meaning. You also demonstrate that you're fairly ignorant of the biggest problem with language: namely, that words can only be defined with other words. This is essentially the big problem with language first proposed in the 20th Century, and for someone who pretends to understands linguistics and semiotics, this is friggin hilarious. If you're trying to get at the essence of a word, and all you can do is hang a bunch of other words one the word the one in question is derived from, you don't succeed in making the meaning any clearer.

    The apparent difficulty in understanding the meaning of the word "intellectual" is understanding the word "intellect". There's no way around this, and that you can't understand this demonstrates your idiocy.

    Sophomoric mistake #2 (fallacy of equivocation, one of your favorites, it seems)

    When I called "intellect" the root word, I did so as a courtesy to you since that's what you called it.

    Consider:

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    That "intellectual" has the root word "intellect" does not mean that the two are identical.
    Then there followed a discussion about the centrality of "intellect," and then you switched this, for no reason, to a discussion of "intellectus", which ironically still contains the same problem despite all your infantile attempts to hide it.

    So we have the following fallacious argument:

    1. Stunt says the root word "intellect" is central to the meaning of "intellectual".
    2. I demonstrated how antique roots do not mean precisely the same thing as their modern byproducts by examining the word "intellectus" (which was, itself, a false obscuring of the facts).
    Therefore, stunt is wrong.

    Again and again you make the SAME errors of thought. Perhaps you should try learning from your mistakes some time.

    Sophomoric mistake #3

    You pick the least likely candidate for intellectual revisionism: John Keats.

    Consider:

    Negative Capability

    It can sometimes be hard to understand how someone can ‘know’ something through emotion. In our society the word ‘know’ is so strongly associated with the words reason, rationality and logic that is hard to imagine being able to know something in any other way. Sure, we can know things through language and through perception, but those are basically just two different kinds of input – in the end it’s our reason working on what we perceive or what is communicated to us through language that makes us know something.

    Indeed, from a typically Western atheistic-scientific perspective, emotion and faith are actually often dismissed as ‘ways of knowing’ and are perhaps more often thought of as ‘ways of believing’ or better still, ways of coming to a belief.

    However, this way of thinking does not have to be the case and, throughout history, there have been examples of people who have tried to downplay the importance of reason and emphasise how important emotion is in really knowing something, in really coming to the truth. Keats, one of the English Romantic poets of the 19th Century, believed this and, although this is a bit of a simplification, he called direct, non-rational, emotional access to the truth ‘Negative Capability’.


    http://mrhoyestokwebsite.com/WOKs/Em...0Capabilty.htm

    Negative capability is the state of creative opposition that enables one to transcend any intellectual or social constraints.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_capability

    Negative Capability

    A term used many times on this website...

    'The concept of Negative Capability is the ability to contemplate the world without the desire to try and reconcile contradictory aspects or fit it into closed and rational systems.'


    http://www.keatsian.co.uk/negative-capability.htm

    The hilarity of your idiotic assessment of Keats is that you miss that the biggest charge leveled against him is one of ANTI-intellectualism. When your hero Richard Dawkins set out to discuss anti-intellectualism, he chose Keats as his historical target.

    I can think of not a single poet who would more viciously resist the categorization as an "intellectual" than Keats. His whole friggin ethos was about the rejection of the intellect. He is the poster child for emotion in the intellect vs. emotion debate.

    You seem to think J is sort of conceding the argument to you, but I think you're grossly misinterpreting his actions. Of course, I can't read J's mind, but I think he realizes that you're generally clueless about the subject and that discussing it with you further is futile. I mean, had you chosen someone else--ANYONE ELSE--we might be able to take you seriously. But you chose friggin Keats--the guy who kept insisting on a rejection of the intellect in favor of emotion! This is your "intellectual".

    You're just embarrassing yourself.
    Last edited by stuntpickle; 05-28-2012 at 02:46 PM.

  10. #235
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman

    "I have asked you countless times in this thread to clarify what you mean by "born" VS "made," and you have repeatedly declined, even when it came to Mutatis asking and stlukes asking. Nobody has been able to get a straight answer from you."

    I'm curious. Can you paste your and your friends' statements that "asked to clarify born vs. made" and mine that "repeatedly declined"? Maybe my speed-reading did not catch them.

    Let me give you a hint. Anything about art or literature, as far as reception is concerned, cannot be generalized. Why? Because it involves perception. Everyone has its own perception. Have you noticed my usage of I, me, and myself in this thread?

    Initially, this thread aimed to elicit different perceptions, but, unfortunately, you wanted to dominate. Hence, this thread has become a space for your verbal diarrhea.
    Last edited by miyako73; 05-28-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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  11. #236
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    The truth is the problem we're having relates directly to both words because they concern the same idea.
    No, they concern a similar idea, not the same idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    you clearly demonstrate that you don't know how to use a dictionary when you completely ignore the essence of a word
    Oooh, the “essence” of a word! That sounds exciting… and delicious! I didn’t know words were these mystical things that had an “essence.” I thought they were signs that referred to things, and sometimes they were signs that referred to multiple things. I thought they were things that evolved due to usage, sometimes dropping meanings, sometimes picking up meanings, sometimes still closely associated with its roots, sometimes branching off to be quite different from its roots. Silly me. I’ve been missing “the essence” of intellectual… is the essence something like the creamy center of a candy bar?

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    in favor of some secondary meaning.
    ”Secondary meaning?” Now we’re RANKING meanings? Your meaning is an admiral, mine’s a captain, yours wins!

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    that words can only be defined with other words.
    Yes, and the words MW uses to define intellectual are clear and unambiguous. I'll repeat them for you:

    a : given to study, reflection, and speculation
    b : engaged in activity requiring the creative use of the intellect <intellectual playwrights>

    Who’s obfuscating now?

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    If you're trying to get at the essence of a word,
    I’m NOT trying to get to any essence! Neither are dictionaries. Dictionaries are just documentarians of usage that attempt to define words intensionally with as little ambiguity is possible. One thing a dictionary can’t do is extensionally define something (which is how we first learn words) by pointing to something and going “THAT.”

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    The apparent difficulty in understanding the meaning of the word "intellectual" is understanding the word "intellect".
    The only “difficulty” is in your befuddled mind. That’s the only difficulty. JCamilo and I understand each other. We accepted we were using different definitions and moved on. Now you’re coming in trying to play dictator of meaning, trying to pretend that “intellectual” must be understood by understanding its root word “intellect,” but this is blatantly, egregiously, outrageously false. Sometimes root words help to clarify a word, and sometimes they don’t. Hence understanding the common definitions of “tuition” doesn’t help at all in understanding “intuition”.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    1. Stunt says the root word "intellect" is central to the meaning of "intellectual".
    2. I demonstrated how antique roots do not mean precisely the same thing as their modern byproducts by examining the word "intellectus" (which was, itself, a false obscuring of the facts).
    Therefore, stunt is wrong.
    I like how you conveniently label the two roots as “antique” VS “modern,” but there is a continuity, not a discrete split. One way certain words grow far away from their roots is because their compounds build up different associations over time. So the same way that “intuition” and “tuition” can start out meaning very similar things, but one comes to mean something completely different than its root, is proof of how such events occur. While “intellectual” is not AS FAR away from “intellect” as “intuition” and “tuition,” the idea that the associations have grown away from the root is undeniably. They still both have a similar meaning of learning, but one refers to a certain faculty of learning, the other refers to people who have learned, or even those that engage in “study, reflection, and speculation.”

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    Consider:

    [I]Negative Capability
    Those were some nice links, but it seems to me that many are extrapolating far beyond Keats’ one and only usage of the term, which is simply:
    Quote Originally Posted by ”Keats”
    I had not a dispute but a disquisition with Dilke, upon various subjects; several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement, especially in Literature, and which Shakespeare possessed so enormously - I mean Negative Capability, that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason - Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. This pursued through volumes would perhaps take us no further than this, that with a great poet the sense of Beauty overcomes every other consideration, or rather obliterates all consideration.
    That Negative Capability is a potent argument against “fact and reason,” and in favor of “being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts” is undeniable, but the way in which Keats REACHED this theory was entirely intellectual. “Several things dove-tailed in my mind, and at once it struck me what quality went to form a Man of Achievement…” Gee, does that not sound like an intellectual process he’s describing? Does it not sound like the product of someone who is “given to study, reflection, and speculation?” That Keats is arguing for anti-reason and anti-fact does not mean he is being an anti-intellectual as he is doing so, as his entire formulation, the entire process that allowed for that formulation, was entirely an intellectual endeavor, one achieved by his reading and reflecting on Shakespeare, his “disquisition” with Dilke, his reading and disagreement with Coleridge. All of these circling around “the life of the mind,” all of them from “a smart person who enjoys study and thought.”

    Again, that you are equating an intellectual with someone who has to consciously theorize about everything, like a Coleridge, is your own usage. That JCamilo was using it to simply denote “academics, scholars” was his. That, for me, it’s defined by people who are “given to study, reflection, and speculation” and who “enjoys study and thought” is mine that I do not limit to people who feel it necessary to develop everything into some formal, academic theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    your hero Richard Dawkins set out to discuss anti-intellectualism, he chose Keats as his historical target.
    He’s not my hero, and all this tells me is that he had his own definition of intellectualism.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    His whole friggin ethos was about the rejection of the intellect.
    Yes, and he did so while being quite intellectual about it! Gotta love the irony! Much like his statement that: "If poetry comes not as naturally as the leaves to a tree, it had better not come at all" even though poetry did not come so easy to him and he suffered more than one failure and setback, even giving up on certain works, and worked very hard and diligently at refining his aesthetic, style, and thematic material.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuntpickle View Post
    You seem to think J is sort of conceding the argument to you, but I think you're grossly misinterpreting his actions.
    Would you please listen to yourself? “(I) think J conceded the argument to me”? I quoted him exactly, and I happen to agree: I don’t think there was an argument to concede because we didn’t even really disagree. We were merely using two different definitions of the same word, and once that difference was cleared up, there was no disagreement. There’s nothing to concede, nobody won, nobody lost. Good grief.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

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  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Oooh, the “essence” of a word! That sounds exciting… and delicious! I didn’t know words were these mystical things that had an “essence.” I thought they were signs that referred to things, and sometimes they were signs that referred to multiple things. I thought they were things that evolved due to usage, sometimes dropping meanings, sometimes picking up meanings, sometimes still closely associated with its roots, sometimes branching off to be quite different from its roots. Silly me. I’ve been missing “the essence” of intellectual… is the essence something like the creamy center of a candy bar?
    The essence of a word is a metaphor--something that is likely to be difficult for a literalist goon with a Cliff Notes understanding of literature. I find it hilarious that some moron who pretends to be an expert in linguistics always resorts to a literal interpretation and quoting from the dictionary.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    ”Secondary meaning?” Now we’re RANKING meanings? Your meaning is an admiral, mine’s a captain, yours wins!
    A wonderful demonstration that you have no clue. I wonder what all those organizational letters and numbers mean. Perhaps you should try actually reading all the documentation in the front of a dictionary that can help explain to you how it is organized.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Who’s obfuscating now?
    You, as usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    The only “difficulty” is in your befuddled mind. That’s the only difficulty. JCamilo and I understand each other. We accepted we were using different definitions and moved on. Now you’re coming in trying to play dictator of meaning, trying to pretend that “intellectual” must be understood by understanding its root word “intellect,” but this is blatantly, egregiously, outrageously false. Sometimes root words help to clarify a word, and sometimes they don’t. Hence understanding the common definitions of “tuition” doesn’t help at all in understanding “intuition”.
    Let me rephrase it for you. I suspect J is trying to avoid your obvious ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Again, that you are equating an intellectual with someone who has to consciously theorize about everything, like a Coleridge, is your own usage. That JCamilo was using it to simply denote “academics, scholars” was his. That, for me, it’s defined by people who are “given to study, reflection, and speculation” and who “enjoys study and thought” is mine that I do not limit to people who feel it necessary to develop everything into some formal, academic theory.
    Yeah, I'm equating the two things because they are equatable. There's an historical conversation about intellectualism in the 18th and 19th Centuries that I wouldn't expect a poker player reading Semiotics in 30 Minutes in between hands to understand. And Keats was a MAJOR component in that discussion. The problem here is you're some uneducated dolt ignorant of the fact that "intellectual" is precisely the wrong word to use in this context.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Yes, and he did so while being quite intellectual about it! Gotta love the irony!
    It isn't irony, but a contradiction, two things dullards often mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Would you please listen to yourself? “(I) think J conceded the argument to me”? I quoted him exactly, and I happen to agree: I don’t think there was an argument to concede because we didn’t even really disagree.
    I think J was simply being nice. I think J realizes that anyone with even a passing acquaintance with the subject would realize how inappropriate the comment is.

    You also flatly accused J of bringing up the word intellectual in the first place. This is simply more evidence of your intellectual dishonesty. You're a narcissist who has to obscure all of literature just so he can be right. I hope you know more about poker than you do literature.
    Last edited by stuntpickle; 05-28-2012 at 03:46 PM.

  13. #238
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miyako73 View Post
    I'm curious. Can you paste your and your friends' statements that "asked to clarify born vs. made" and mine that "repeatedly declined"?
    You on Page 4: "born poets fvck me up awake, made poets fvck me up asleep. Boredom is what separates the two."

    Several responses:

    http://www.online-literature.com/for...&postcount=105
    http://www.online-literature.com/for...&postcount=107
    http://www.online-literature.com/for...&postcount=102

    You didn't answer any of them that I saw.

    You on Page 10: "I also don't write at my whim. Without my mood, I can't think of apt words to use. Without my sensitivity, I am blind to the images in my head. Without my emotions, my metaphors are stale. My writing skill may not be natural or inborn, but my mood, sensitivity, and emotions are."

    Several replies:

    http://www.online-literature.com/for...&postcount=164
    http://www.online-literature.com/for...&postcount=168
    http://www.online-literature.com/for...&postcount=196
    http://www.online-literature.com/for...&postcount=212

    You replied to Mutatis once, then stopped. You never replied to my simple question, and you seemingly ignored Stlukes.

    Finally, many pages later you say: "I believe there are two kinds of artists or writers, the ones with talents and the ones with skills. Talent is inborn while skill is acquired. Both talent and skill can improve to near perfection and they can also decline or diminish into oblivion.

    The best analogy I think:

    Born - talent - already a pencil - sharpen
    Made - skill - still a wood and a graphite - made into a pencil - sharpen

    The made writers have to do more effort and learning than the born ones to better their craft. But then again, over-sharpening a pencil make its tip thinner and break. That's the dilemma. "

    Which seems to be what most of us were saying from the beginning of the thread, so it's a little frustrating that you only finally decided to mention this on Page 17. But even here, how does one separate "talent" and "skill," what is "inborn" from what is "learned"?
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

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  14. #239
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    Morpheus, you failed again.

    Read what I wrote. Those are my opinions, perceptions, and views.

    Ex.

    "born poets fvck me up awake, made poets fvck me up asleep. Boredom is what separates the two."


    If I want to make that a general statement, I would have written it as:

    "born poets fvck readers awake, made poets fvck readers asleep. Boredom is what separates the two."

    Misreading again. Aren't you all-in yet?


    By the way, I'm still waiting for your response to my last post. I am not writing in French. Understand my question. I see two fallacies involved already besides argument by verbosity.
    Last edited by miyako73; 05-28-2012 at 03:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    Which seems to be what most of us were saying from the beginning of the thread, so it's a little frustrating that you only finally decided to mention this on Page 17. But even here, how does one separate "talent" and "skill," what is "inborn" from what is "learned"?
    There's no contradiction in what she's saying. You're just making poor assumptions in order to pretend otherwise. Your accusation was that Miyako was clearly stating that all one needed was emotions to write poetry. I have already demanded you cite where she said this. You have failed to do so. You are again guilty of fallacious reasoning.


    Any further response without citing where Miyako stated that all anyone needed were emotions to write poetry, is evidence of your dishonesty.

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