May / Nobel Winners Reading: My Name is Red by Orhan Pamuk

[bouquin]

I'm enjoying how everyone seems to be cast in an "impure" light. There is not one human pov character that is not flawed in one way or another. Even Elegant who we ought to sympathize with because he starts off dead, we begin to see his death as a good thing.

I too appreciate the candid way of portraying the different personalities, with all their character flaws.

I'm now on Chapter 55 - almost done with the book - but I have not yet seen how Elegant's death could be "a good thing."

[Dark Muse]

After reading the chapter "I Am Death" I am quite curious, though it states that it is the illustration of Death speaking, I wondered if it was perhaps not also Death itself as well, perhaps speaking through the illustration. For there was a moment in which Death (the alleged illustration of Death) exhibits a self-awareness of his existence prior to the illustration having actually been created.

"In this manner, they entered into an elevated conversation with double entendre, allusions, puns, obscure references and innuendos, as befit miniaturists who respected both the old masters as well as their own talent. Since it was my existence that was being discussed, I listened intently to the conversation....

So before the illustration of Death was drawn, it was aware of itself. So I wonder if Death itself, and the illustration death are sort of simultaneously speaking here, if in a way they are one in the same.

I had a similar moment with the chapter "I Am Tree" in which though on the end it was the illustration of a tree which was speaking, there were moments in which I wondered if in someway it was also the essence of an actual tree as well.

[Charles Darnay]

I'm now on Chapter 55 - almost done with the book - but I have not yet seen how Elegant's death could be "a good thing."

It is explored in the "I will be called Murderer" chapters. Elegant would have brought around the ruin of Enishte Effendi - at least this is the initial rationale behind it. Whether this would have been the case or not is actually inconsequential.

After reading the chapter "I Am Death" I am quite curious, though it states that it is the illustration of Death speaking, I wondered if it was perhaps not also Death itself as well, perhaps speaking through the illustration. For there was a moment in which Death (the alleged illustration of Death) exhibits a self-awareness of his existence prior to the illustration having actually been created.



So before the illustration of Death was drawn, it was aware of itself. So I wonder if Death itself, and the illustration death are sort of simultaneously speaking here, if in a way they are one in the same.

I had a similar moment with the chapter "I Am Tree" in which though on the end it was the illustration of a tree which was speaking, there were moments in which I wondered if in someway it was also the essence of an actual tree as well.

All the image pov characters (dog, tree, coin, death....) seem to have an awareness that they are an image of what they are, and therefore have knowledge of what they are. There is certainly a play with reality vs. image and the idea that the image is an "impure form" of the real - and the worse the image, the more impure. This comes out most in the character of Death, because the drawing was considerably bad.

[Dark Muse]

It is explored in the "I will be called Murderer" chapters. Elegant would have brought around the ruin of Enishte Effendi - at least this is the initial rationale behind it. Whether this would have been the case or not is actually inconsequential.

But than again in one of the "I Am Called Murderer" chaters the murderer himself explores the possibility that Elegant may have been correct about Enishte (thus suggesting that his ruin would have been justified) and he does consider the possibility that his justification for the murder may be incorrect and that in truth his action was a vile one.

[bouquin]

After reading the chapter "I Am Death" I am quite curious, though it states that it is the illustration of Death speaking, I wondered if it was perhaps not also Death itself as well, perhaps speaking through the illustration. For there was a moment in which Death (the alleged illustration of Death) exhibits a self-awareness of his existence prior to the illustration having actually been created.




I had a similar moment with the chapter "I Am Tree" in which though on the end it was the illustration of a tree which was speaking, there were moments in which I wondered if in someway it was also the essence of an actual tree as well.

Spoiler Warning . . .

It is my understanding that in the chapters of the dog, the tree, Death, Satan, etc. it is the storyteller at the coffeehouse who's speaking. I think he would be the equivalent of our present-day stand-up comic.

from Chapter 56:
... the storyteller ... began plying his trade in the coffeehouse, and one of the miniaturists ... hung a picture on the wall to be amusing; the glib storyteller took notice and, as a joke of his own, began a monologue as if he were the dog in the picture, which met with great success; thenceforth, every night he continued to feature pictures drawn by the master miniaturists and to tell witty tales they whispered into his ear.

[Dark Muse]

I begin to wonder if Shekure is actually aware of the fact that Hasan reads Black's letters.

In "I Am Shekure" Chapter 26

I thought it was a little strange that after writing to Black, when she hears that Esther has come back she already knows, or assumes, that there will also be a letter from Hasan. Why would she expect that Hasan would writer to her at the same time that Black has? And if Hasan regularly writers to her at the exact same time in which Black writers to her, one would think that would become suspicious over time.

And than when she is reading the letters, she does not express any surprise that Hasan mentions the dream she had about her husband's death, which is also spoken of in Black's letter. Hasan appears to be quick reckless in his letter writing and if he frequently refers to things in his letters which are present in Black's letters, you would think Shekure would start to notice and wonder about that.

[bouquin]

I also enjoyed the stories - I particularly liked Stork's stories.

I think the grouping of 3s does give it a fairy tale like quality, which may be the point. I am not familiar enough with Islam to know if 3 is as significant a number as it is elsewhere.

I am still trying to figure Esther out. I have not read far enough to solidify my judgement, but based on where I am right now there is a bit of that "Renaissance idea of the Jew" like you find in Merchant of Venice - that is, Jews only care about money. Esther seems to deliver the letter to Hassan for monetary profit (even though she denies it) - but she also regrets doing it after.

That being said, it seems like all "Infidels" are corrupted by money (the Venetians and Franks) - and even some of the miniaturists. Esther seems to fit it with the theme that money is a truly destructive force in this world.

Esther is wily, too, like Shekure. But Esther is wiser, I think; she has more focus.

[Dark Muse]

I begin to wonder if Shekure is actually aware of the fact that Hasan reads Black's letters.

In "I Am Shekure" Chapter 26

I thought it was a little strange that after writing to Black, when she hears that Esther has come back she already knows, or assumes, that there will also be a letter from Hasan. Why would she expect that Hasan would writer to her at the same time that Black has? And if Hasan regularly writers to her at the exact same time in which Black writers to her, one would think that would become suspicious over time.

And than when she is reading the letters, she does not express any surprise that Hasan mentions the dream she had about her husband's death, which is also spoken of in Black's letter. Hasan appears to be quick reckless in his letter writing and if he frequently refers to things in his letters which are present in Black's letters, you would think Shekure would start to notice and wonder about that.

I spoke too soon and my own question was answered in the book. I just got to the part in which Shekure openly admits that she susspected her letters to Black were being read Hasan.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

About a hundred pages left and my one word description has changed: BORING.

[bouquin]

What has made you judge the book as boring?

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, like I said, the first hundred pages had me hooked. The story was moving at a good place, the narrative style had me captivated. And the writing is beautiful. But as I went along, things seemed to have stalled. It seemed like any sort of plot progression took the place of philosophical meandering and/or long and drawn out descriptions of art. At one point I think the descriptions of paintings went on for four or five pages.

Don't get me wrong, the descriptions were beautifully written--the whole book was--but I couldn't have cared less, honestly. Those first chapters had me reading because I wanted to find out what happened next, but by the end, I was slogging my way through it as if the book were a chore, and honestly. Skimming a lot of the sections that seemed plotless.

It's not that I think it's a bad book--I can very easily see how it could be seen as a masterpiece. Plus, I'm sure there's heaps of symbolism and allegory that an analytic reading would reveal, not to mention a knowledge of Turkish culture. That being said, I didn't enjoy it.

Apart from the drawn on descriptory section, I find an even bigger reason I didn't like the book--I didn't give one rat's *** about any of the characters. It seemed either I disliked them or didn't have any feelings for them one way or another. Black could've died at the end nd my emotional reaction would've been "meh." Plus, Shekure was a loathsome, mysigonistically portray character (the writing of her character gave me the distinct impression that the author really has no business writing women, unless he was going for the selfish, vain, naive, and all around unpleasant approach to writing Shekure), not to mention her incredibly obnoxious kids (seriously, I was rooting for the author to kill them off). Black was a lovestruck idiot, a shallow man who made it clear that he only loved Shekure for her looks, and the rest of the principal characters were creepy pederasts.

So, yeah, that's why I didn't like it. 5/10.

[bouquin]

I actually agree with most of what you're saying. My favorite characters were the Gold Coin and Satan! I would have preferred several more chapters devoted to them rather than to the dubious miniaturists. But at the same time I also liked the way Shekure, her two boys and the other characters were portrayed with all their shortcomings, doubts, and flaws. They were more interesting that way, I think, although not necessarily endearing. Black sure did not come out as a dashing, dark and handsome knight in shining armor!

I also felt that the descriptions of the works of art and the stories of kings and concubines, wars and warriors became tedious and repetitive after a while. If I had known where to skip certain chapters I could have done so and still not have missed much on main thread of the story itself.

[Dark Muse]

I have to admit personally I enjoyed the descriptions of art, and the philosophies and theories relating to art. Though Art History was one of my favorite classes so maybe that is part of why. I do have a deep interest in art and look books which center around art. But I loved the chapters of Master Osman and hearing his own theories relating to art, and his analogies, and I liked the chapters dealing with the miniaturists. Also loved the chapters depicting the illustrations themselves. I loved I Am Red and also thought that I Am A Horse was great.

I really liked the way in which it seemed the author was toying with the idea of art imitating life and life imitating art, and how the lines between art and reality were blurred. Particularly when it came to the chapters with the illustrations in which it seemed as if the illustration seemed to be both an illustration as well as representing the spirit or essence of the actual thing of which it was an illustration of. And than there was the ongoing debate about depicting something from real life within art. So it seamed there was a lot of blurring of lines of what really is real.

I also enjoyed the murder mystery aspect of the book, for me where it seemed to drag a bit, is when it came to the story of Shekure and Black, as honestly I did not really much care, nor have much interest in their romance, and the chapters which dealt with them were the slowest for me to get through. Though one of my favorite human characters was Esther. I found her quite entertaining and I liked see her perspective on things.

[Charles Darnay]

So I just finished the book. I became distracted with other books along the way - such is how it goes.

I agree with DM in that the musings on art were the highlights of this book. I love the language and the philosophy of art and imitation.

As far as the plot goes - I found that it went downhill after [SPOILER ALERT] Enishte's death. Things started to become dull and monotonous, with the exception of the parts dealing with aesthetic philosophy.

I found that by the end I liked Shekure's character. Sometimes you pitied her, and sometimes you hated her, but she was the most dynamic out of the characters.

[Dark Muse]

So I just finished the book. I became distracted with other books along the way - such is how it goes.

I agree with DM in that the musings on art were the highlights of this book. I love the language and the philosophy of art and imitation.

As far as the plot goes - I found that it went downhill after [SPOILER ALERT] Enishte's death. Things started to become dull and monotonous, with the exception of the parts dealing with aesthetic philosophy.

I found that by the end I liked Shekure's character. Sometimes you pitied her, and sometimes you hated her, but she was the most dynamic out of the characters.

Though I am thoroughly enjoying the book, and I cannot say there is a point in which I have come to dislike it, or like it less, I agree that it does seem as if it slows down a bit, and drags in parts, after the point of the murder.

In regards to Shekure, I myself found that after his marriage to her, I started to like Black more than I previously did, because I sympathized with him for being married to her. It seemed to be a case of careful what you wish for.

Frankly I think it would have served her right if both Hasan and Black became fed up with her and left her to herself.