villainy and literature

[MorpheusSandman]

I would not suggest Paradise Lost because while Satan is very human, the entire poem relates to the heavens, to the supernatural and all that is beyond man.

Let's face it, whenever man writes about anything it's not "beyond man" because whatever they're imagining is through an eternally human mind. Satan is a completely humanistic character, and that's what makes him so fascinating. Much more so than Milton's God who's full of flaccid absolutes. But Blake had a good reason for why that was.

[Mr Endon]

Better be careful about including Kubrick and Hitchcock in that list because they hardly presented anything approaching traditional villains (though there is plenty of conflict in their films). Both had a way of making the villains the most sympathetic and humanistic characters of their films.

True!

As for villains in films, for me the perfect villain is in the Coen brothers' 'No Country For Old Men'. A ruthless, inscrutable force of nature. A character as flat as they come, granted, but that's why it's the perfect villain.

I agree with the general trend of the thread, but I also think that in lesser authors the use of a villain can be a rather facile way to pin down all the negative feelings evoked in the novel in one circumscribed compartment - in other words, to have a scapegoat. For example, Anna Karenina, Wuthering Heights, or any Beckett novel, show that conflict without villainy is possible.
(There's no villain in Wuthering Heights, right? It's been a while since I've read it)

[MorpheusSandman]

Even Chigurh in No Country for Old Men is an interesting case. We think of him as the ultimate implacable villain, but he's really more of an indifferent force of nature. To me, his bit with the coin exists solely because as an unconscious force of nature he can't make decisions on his own. The minute he makes a decision in the end where his coin is taken away, he walks out of the film a bleeding human. I wrote a lengthy piece about that film for Cinelogue: http://www.cinelogue.com/reviews/no-country-for-old-men

[Heteronym]

could villainy be dipsuted as unimportant/dated in literature and could bravery and chivalry become the norms of literature history?

What novels have you been reading? Bravery and chivalry? Most great novels, contemporary and classic, are cesspools of depravity, moral cowardice and cynicism, where good sure as hell doesn't win, ever.

[Sfizz]

The definition of villainous is perceived differently by different people. As in current film/literature this is expanded on so the viewer/reader dig deeper into the story and determine their own opinion on the villain. Therfore it will never ge old as our mind subconsciously inserts a villain where there is a hero.

[cacian]

What novels have you been reading? Bravery and chivalry? Most great novels, contemporary and classic, are cesspools of depravity, moral cowardice and cynicism, where good sure as hell doesn't win, ever.

Indeed and that is the problem you see. It would take bravery and chivalry to change it. I believe in changes they are always for the better.

[cacian]

The definition of villainous is perceived differently by different people. As in current film/literature this is expanded on so the viewer/reader dig deeper into the story and determine their own opinion on the villain. Therfore it will never ge old as our mind subconsciously inserts a villain where there is a hero.

Inserting a villain is easily done when the person's mind is inclined to believe villany essential to the plot. I defy villany as something learned rather then inherent. Too much of it in books and films it simply becomes part of everyday thinking.

[Volya]

How can you write a book with no conflict?
Even if there is no physical, human villain, there must always be some concept that provides the conflict and drives the narrative of the story.

[Volya]

It is far easier to do bad deeds than good ones, similarly it is easier to be a 'evil' person than a good one. If it wasn't, then there would be no bad people. And a quick look around the world shows us that there are definitely bad people.
To quote Kick-***: 'In the world I lived in, heroes only existed in comic books. And I guess that'd be okay, if bad guys were make-believe too, but they're not.'

[cafolini]

It is far easier to do bad deeds than good ones, similarly it is easier to be a 'evil' person than a good one. If it wasn't, then there would be no bad people. And a quick look around the world shows us that there are definitely bad people.
To quote Kick-***: 'In the world I lived in, heroes only existed in comic books. And I guess that'd be okay, if bad guys were make-believe too, but they're not.'

There are many bad people in this world, but that does not make it easier to do bad deeds. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

[cacian]

How can you write a book with no conflict?
Even if there is no physical, human villain, there must always be some concept that provides the conflict and drives the narrative of the story.

I can. It is not all about conflict. There are so many others things one can write about. Characters can be one. How they think and intereact is another.

[byquist]

Here's an interesting point in watching dramas: a villain is more interesting to watch if you see some goodness in him or her. For instance, seeing a 100% mean and nasty Iago is rather dull. But, seeing him portrayed as having some good -- I mean he probably was a decent kid at one time, and probably his mother liked or loved him -- makes him even more scary when he acts heinously. Shakespeare has a quote somewhere that those who behave evil have tendencies of goodness. Or, that evilness (irrespective of persons) has some glints of goodness.

[cacian]

Here's an interesting point in watching dramas: a villain is more interesting to watch if you see some goodness in him or her. For instance, seeing a 100% mean and nasty Iago is rather dull. But, seeing him portrayed as having some good -- I mean he probably was a decent kid at one time, and probably his mother liked or loved him -- makes him even more scary when he acts heinously. Shakespeare has a quote somewhere that those who behave evil have tendencies of goodness. Or, that evilness (irrespective of persons) has some glints of goodness.

Ok. But have we not all got sides of goodness because not all are evil.

[cafolini]

Ok. But have we not all got sides of goodness because not all are evil.

[cacian]

How can you write a book with no conflict?
Even if there is no physical, human villain, there must always be some concept that provides the conflict and drives the narrative of the story.

Ideologies can make good conflicts.
It is not all about the characters.