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Thread: Religious Rituals

  1. #16
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usman.khawar View Post
    There are some missconceptions about divorce in Islam.

    The view which u stated above about divorce is represented by a few sects. This view was set in the era of 2nd Caliph Hazrat Omer who took an administrator order due to the fact that men were dominating women by making them in constant panic. Three times saying in one time become final divorce but before him it was not like that.

    Woman is also given the right to take divorce from man known as “Khulaa” if she is not happy with him.

    Before his era, there was a process of divorce. Before telling the process I must say that we have popular sayings in Islam that divorce is that legal action which is not appreciated by God. So in Islam due to this process mostly people come back from their decisions of divorce. In the process of divorce, In Muhammad’s era and in 1st Caliph’s era, three or more times saying of the word divorce was consider as one even if a man say 10 times at a time. After giving 1st divorce, one has to wait for 4 periods of women to make 2nd divorce. Then once again after 2nd one has to wait for the same time for final divorce. Moreover if some woman is in her periods no man was allowed to give divorce. After completion the process of divorce, God orders Man to send woman back in very good manners giving some gifts or something.

    Chapter At-Talaq:. Verse 1. “O Prophet! When ye do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, and count (accurately), their prescribed periods: And fear Allah your Lord: and turn them not out of their houses, nor shall they (themselves) leave, except in case they are guilty of some open lewdness, those are limits set by Allah. and any who transgresses the limits of Allah, does verily wrong his (own) soul: thou knowest not if perchance Allah will bring about thereafter some new situation.”
    Verse 4 : . Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
    Verse6: 6 . Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable. And if ye find yourselves in difficulties, let another woman suckle (the child) on the (father's) behalf.


    Man makes woman in continues fear of separation by saying 1st divorce and then in waiting time taking it back. Due to this very reason 2nd Caliph made this administrator order that three times divorce in one time would be considered final. But we see that Era is changed now again. Now we have choices. We can follow any one of the true companions of Muhammad we want to. In the time when Quran was revealing that era was very simple as Islam is. If we want to understand Islam we have to see how the companions of Muhammad understand that. Where is my view is concern i'would try to follow what was common in Muhammad's era also define in Quran:

    Chapter Baqra : 228 . Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods.Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day.And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation.And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them.And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
    229 . A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness.It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah.If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom.These are the limits ordained by Allah.so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others).

    Thanks and Regards
    Hi usman
    what do you mean by
    This view was set in the era of 2nd Caliph Hazrat Omer who took an administrator order due to the fact that men were dominating women by making them in constant panic.
    do you mean that he wanted to empower women to divorce easily by saying divorce three times?
    What happens if a man divorce a woman by saying divorce and then she turns to be pregnant?
    You mention they are not allowed to divorce if she has her period.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    Hi usman
    what do you mean by

    do you mean that he wanted to empower women to divorce easily by saying divorce three times?
    What happens if a man divorce a woman by saying divorce and then she turns to be pregnant?
    You mention they are not allowed to divorce if she has her period.
    yes to start the process of divorce man has to wait that his wife gets free from her periods or pregnancy. coz as mentioned in the verses one has to count the exact timings of the periods. and yes there is no need for lawyer. but here at this point again we are given suggestion from God in Quran, that there should be each person from both sides to sit together. if these person wish to make both sides together again they will succeed. i think its seems somekind of lawyer concept but ofcourse it can be happen without them. there are choices.

    do you mean that he wanted to empower women to divorce easily by saying divorce three times?

    its all about feelings of woman. Mostly men were dominating woman in the sense that by saying 1st divorce they put their wives in constant danger of seperation, Man has already in mind that he will take back the divorce. due to the fear of dumping woman was no doubt feel bad. After 3 periods it is the choice whether to continue the divorce's process or take it back and live again together. This is all about the feelings of wives. to make ensure that man couldnt not dominate woman in this matter, Omer made this law. so due to this Man became careful in using this term as a threat to dominate them. God knows better.
    Last edited by usman.khawar; 04-27-2012 at 02:15 PM.
    Rab e adkhilni Mudkhla Sidqnw wa akhrijni mukhraja sidkanw wja alni milla dunka Sultananasira!!

  3. #18
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    Thank you! I have heard of Jehovah's witness is that anything to Jehovah's credibility as God. What I mean why witnesses?
    Actually, I think Jehovah's Witness isn't much more than a catchy name that means they witness (preach) about God. Going back to the Ten commandments, there is the commandment "You should not take the Lord's name in vain." The Israelites (Jews) took this to an extreme. They had refused to say His name at all. In fact, when they wrote it, they removed all the vowels which left (YHWH). Later, other took the vowels from the word Adonai (meaning Lord), and somehow derived (Yahweh)...(I however don't understand how that worked, but that is what I read). Yahweh was later anglicized to Jehovah (as I previously mentioned). The religious group, the Jehovah's Witnesses just adapted that into their name.

    Got it!! presumably these sects are similar to what we call the sunnists and suffist in Islam right??
    Yes, but these are religious sects from Judaism. There is no connection to Christianity however. I don't even know if they even exist today.
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  4. #19
    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    Actually the Bible teaches us not to swear by physical things, but just to be honest. Therefore the ritual of swearing "on the Bible" violates the teaching that is within it. The Bible teaches us to JUST TELL THE TRUTH.

    Matthew 5:36-37
    36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
    That probably goes back to the Old testament prohibition against idolatry also. Worship the Presence, not the physical.

    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    All three were involved in the creation account in Genesis.
    This is the first I've ever heard of Jesus existing as part of a Trinity before his conception, let alone all the way back to Creation. Wasn't he brought into existence as a human aspect of God to take the burden of the sins of Man? Where is he mentioned in the early Bible (aside from prophets foretelling his birth and activities as a human)?
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  5. #20
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calidore View Post
    This is the first I've ever heard of Jesus existing as part of a Trinity before his conception, let alone all the way back to Creation. Wasn't he brought into existence as a human aspect of God to take the burden of the sins of Man? Where is he mentioned in the early Bible (aside from prophets foretelling his birth and activities as a human)?
    Colossians 1:15ff,
    "15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence."

    Combine this with what is said in Genesis 1:26-27

    "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

    In these passages concerning the creation, the Hebrew word Elohim is used. The word El is the singular form of God, while Elohim is the plural form. This is seen in the English translation in the verses shown above, when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image..." All three Persons of the Godhead are present, and are eternal.

    Also consider John 1:1-5,
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

    Verse 14 shows us that this is referring to Jesus.
    " And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  6. #21
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    So what about rituals then?

  7. #22
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    So what about rituals then?
    Are there any that you want to discuss? Feel free to share what you know, or if you have any specific questions, you are free to ask anyone.
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  8. #23
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    So what about rituals then?
    the significance of baptism is one.
    what does it actually mean to be immersed in water?
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  9. #24
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    the significance of baptism is one.
    what does it actually mean to be immersed in water?
    That is symbolic of the dead, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Romans 6:1-11,
    "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  10. #25
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    That is symbolic of the dead, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Romans 6:1-11,
    "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    Thank you Bien I was not so clear on why water and so I thought it was to encourage purity ( hygiene).
    The other issue I have with the word
    ''7 For he who has died has been freed from sin''
    and
    ''He died to sin once for all;''
    Two questions I have if I may:
    One:
    If Jesus died for all sins then isn't this idea reading into the future that people will sin?
    In other word is this premaditating 'sin', something one may or may not commit?
    and where does tha leave those who do not sin ?
    Two:
    If Jesus was betrayed and then killed how could he have died for someone else's sin?
    He did not have the power to stop himself from being killed and yet he makes it to be a sin affair and comes back to life again three days later. Was it mentioned anywhere that he would rise from the dead?
    That would have been a proof that he had godly power to tell his apostles that he would rise again in the same way that he tells them he knew he was going to be killed or die?
    I mean did he say he was going to die or be killed?
    Thanks!
    Last edited by cacian; 04-28-2012 at 07:47 AM.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  11. #26
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    What I mean is, rituals are the taking part aspect of religion. I wondered what you thought of this aspect in your religion.

    I find Buddhist rituals helpful, as I posted earlier, and I wondered if you thought the same.

  12. #27
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    What I mean is, rituals are the taking part aspect of religion. I wondered what you thought of this aspect in your religion.

    I find Buddhist rituals helpful, as I posted earlier, and I wondered if you thought the same.
    If you are talking to me then my answer is I do not have any religious rituals.
    I could not make my mind up about all religions because the only I always had in my mind whilst I was growing is why so many religions when surely there has to be the one god only.
    That is what my mind was telling me all along. There cannot be thousands of different gods.
    So I gave up and decided to start my own religion if you like.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  13. #28
    BadWoolf JuniperWoolf's Avatar
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    I love religious rituals, especially Catholic and esoteric ones (Golden Dawn and all that). They're so intricate, and they smell and look pretty. Plus, you typically get something to eat and drink, like on holiday rituals such as Christmas. Christmas contains an animal sacrifice, it's a widely acknowledged part of the holiday that you kill a bird (although not personally anymore) and then eat it.
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  14. #29
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    If you are talking to me then my answer is I do not have any religious rituals.
    I could not make my mind up about all religions because the only I always had in my mind whilst I was growing is why so many religions when surely there has to be the one god only.
    That is what my mind was telling me all along. There cannot be thousands of different gods.
    So I gave up and decided to start my own religion if you like.
    Thousands of Gods? You must be a Hindu.

    I was talking to Bien and anyone else.

  15. #30
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    =Paulclem;1136378Thousands of Gods? You must be a Hindu
    No I am not. I am me. I have nothing to do with hindus. I don't understand their religions especially the worshipping of animals such as cows. I find that most strange.
    Last edited by cacian; 04-29-2012 at 11:27 AM.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

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