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Thread: Religious Rituals

  1. #1
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Religious Rituals

    differences and similarities.

    I find the holding of the bible in a court hearing most intriquing.
    I am not sure what the actual true significance of it is but it makes think of the Koran book which is not to be held or touched apparently unless you are clean/purified.
    They are both similar in the sense that they are the 'words of God' which lives one like me wondering how many Gods are there and different in that one is handled lightly and afidavi randomly and the other is not easily accessible to be touched.

    Another ritual is that the picture of Jesus is displayed on a cross, painted, on frescos and so widely visualised with long hair, white and semi-naked but in Islam the prophet Mohamed is never seen because he is I quote: too divine/percious to be portrayed or painted because there is no one like him.

    Similarity is they are both prophets, differences one is internationally visualised and the other is never to be seen.

    and last but not least in catholic religion one is not to divorce easily for one has to wait at least 5 years before is able to break the marriage union and in Islam one can simply pronounce the sentence I quote :
    'I divorce you' three times by a male and one is quit of this union.

    Both of similar is that they demand a union by a sanctity of a God and the difference is that one is near impossible to break and the other is done on a whim.( Hurray I'd say marry the islamist way at least one gets to divorce without the need a lawyer. That one single benefit out of it.) sorry I just could not help it.


    I find these rituals very interesting.

    Any other rituals you wish to share would be most welcome.
    Last edited by cacian; 04-26-2012 at 09:27 AM.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  2. #2
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Actually the Bible teaches us not to swear by physical things, but just to be honest. Therefore the ritual of swearing "on the Bible" violates the teaching that is within it. The Bible teaches us to JUST TELL THE TRUTH.

    Matthew 5:36-37
    36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  3. #3
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    Actually the Bible teaches us not to swear by physical things, but just to be honest. Therefore the ritual of swearing "on the Bible" violates the teaching that is within it. The Bible teaches us to JUST TELL THE TRUTH.

    Matthew 5:36-37
    36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
    Thank you Bien.
    What about lying whilst holding the bible? Is there any mention of that because it is easy to just say yes or no.
    what does whatever is more mean? is this insinuating one's lies?
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  4. #4
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    Thank you Bien.
    What about lying whilst holding the bible? Is there any mention of that because it is easy to just say yes or no.
    what does whatever is more mean? is this insinuating one's lies?
    If you go to another passage in Matthew, it shows that the sect of the Pharisees had devised a list of "rules". If you swear by the temple, it didn't mean anything, but if you swear by the GOLD in the temple, then you had to uphold your promise. (The Pharisees were materialistic therefore the GOLD was more important than that which was spiritual). They would use semantics to deceive. So I believe that He is saying here, that whatever rules are more than that of JUST BEING HONEST, they are rules devised for evil. Which clearly the Pharisees were using to be deceitful.
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  5. #5
    Allah is not to be sensed (physically) by any mortal. Yet, Mohamed was definitely a mortal and is supposed to be buried in Medina (Yahtrib, the city of his birth). All these guys are funny jokers. And it is obvious that they no longer count where the action is.
    Under the same light, the statistics that give them very large numbers of adepts are falser and falser in reality. I wouldn't waste my time with them.

  6. #6
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafolini View Post
    Allah is not to be sensed (physically) by any mortal. Yet, Mohamed was definitely a mortal and is supposed to be buried in Medina (Yahtrib, the city of his birth). All these guys are funny jokers. And it is obvious that they no longer count where the action is.
    Under the same light, the statistics that give them very large numbers of adepts are falser and falser in reality. I wouldn't waste my time with them.
    I'm glad that I don't serve Allah then. Jehovah desires to be reunited by His people. It's peculiar that people often confuse these two very different personalities.
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  7. #7
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    I'm glad that I don't serve Allah then. Jehovah desires to be reunited by His people. It's peculiar that people often confuse these two very different personalities.
    who is Jehovah?
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  8. #8
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafolini View Post
    Allah is not to be sensed (physically) by any mortal. Yet, Mohamed was definitely a mortal and is supposed to be buried in Medina (Yahtrib, the city of his birth). All these guys are funny jokers. And it is obvious that they no longer count where the action is.
    Hi cafolini I don't get what you mean...can you explain a bit more what you mean ''these guys''?

    Under the same light, the statistics that give them very large numbers of adepts are falser and falser in reality. I wouldn't waste my time with them.
    again here I am not following.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  9. #9
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    If you go to another passage in Matthew, it shows that the sect of the Pharisees had devised a list of "rules". If you swear by the temple, it didn't mean anything, but if you swear by the GOLD in the temple, then you had to uphold your promise. (The Pharisees were materialistic therefore the GOLD was more important than that which was spiritual). They would use semantics to deceive. So I believe that He is saying here, that whatever rules are more than that of JUST BEING HONEST, they are rules devised for evil. Which clearly the Pharisees were using to be deceitful.
    I have never heard of the Pharisees until now.
    They are in the same as the Sadducees.
    Did they exist during Jesus time?
    I don't understand what you mean by
    ''they would use semantics to deceive''.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  10. #10
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    When I first became a Buddhist, I didn't really understand the purpose of the Buddhist rituals, and put it down to the reverence to The Buddha before we got to the important stuff - the meditation.

    I gradually came to realise that the ritual gives structure to your practice. A Buddhist's motivation is what makes a meditation Buddhist, and this is easily generated when following the prayers and chanting. It acts as a reminder of the practice, is often a communal part of a group meditation - which gives it a special shared meaning, and enables - with practice - your mind to develop the right knd of motivation and focus. It ultimately makes the meditation more powerful.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    Hi cafolini I don't get what you mean...can you explain a bit more what you mean ''these guys''?


    again here I am not following.
    The Arabs, these guys, produced Islam to become independent of the West. The fight was in Mecca because the Beduins (including Jews) fought for the seat of Abraham. But they lost. The Arabs develop an empire with Malacca as a pivot and conquered northern Africa and inwards, and outwards, the Iberian peninsula. When the first Portuguese reached Malacca one said, "The owner of Malacca has his hands around the neck of Venice." That was the purpose of Islam, and these funny guys, as long as they lasted in the West, did it well and effectively. Any Arab who knows his history knows this is true.
    I will not waste my time with the religious dialectics (diahrrealectics?) of this matter.
    Last edited by cafolini; 04-26-2012 at 05:46 PM.

  12. #12
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    who is Jehovah?
    Jehovah is the Anglican form of Yahweh. This is the God of Abraham as viewed by Christian-Judeo religions. There is a Godhead (Trinity) of deities who are the Father (Jehovah), the Son (Messiah/Christ), and the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God). Three distinct persons, but all completely united in purpose and power. All three were involved in the creation account in Genesis. Jehovah is only the Father in respect to showing the relationship of being the heir. All three are equal with the exception that Jesus willfully submitted to Jehovah as an example to others.


    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    I have never heard of the Pharisees until now.
    They are in the same as the Sadducees.
    Did they exist during Jesus time?
    I don't understand what you mean by
    ''they would use semantics to deceive''.
    The Pharisees and Sadducees were two different sects similar to political parties at the time. Varying beliefs (i.e. the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, Pharisees did), but both Jewish. There were other sects as well, like the Essenes (who were the ones who discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls). The Pharisees would use semantics (technicalities) to benefit them. They would make a promise (and swear on the temple), but when it came time to fulfill the promise (contract) they would say that the promise wasn't valid because they didn't swear on the "gold" in the temple. It's like making a promise, but then say, "Sorry, I had my fingers crossed!"
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  13. #13
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafolini View Post
    The Arabs, these guys, produced Islam to become independent of the West. The fight was in Mecca because the Beduins (including Jews) fought for the seat of Abraham. But they lost. The Arabs develop an empire with Malacca as a pivot and conquered northern Africa and inwards, and outwards, the Iberian peninsula. When the first Portuguese reached Malacca one said, "The owner of Malacca has his hands around the neck of Venice." That was the purpose of Islam, and these funny guys, as long as they lasted in the West, did it well and effectively. Any Arab who knows his history knows this is true.
    I will not waste my time with the religious dialectics (diahrrealectics?) of this matter.
    Thank you cafolini that makes sense now.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post

    and last but not least in catholic religion one is not to divorce easily for one has to wait at least 5 years before is able to break the marriage union and in Islam one can simply pronounce the sentence I quote :
    'I divorce you' three times by a male and one is quit of this union.

    Both of similar is that they demand a union by a sanctity of a God and the difference is that one is near impossible to break and the other is done on a whim.( Hurray I'd say marry the islamist way at least one gets to divorce without the need a lawyer. That one single benefit out of it.) sorry I just could not help it.


    .
    There are some missconceptions about divorce in Islam.

    The view which u stated above about divorce is represented by a few sects. This view was set in the era of 2nd Caliph Hazrat Omer who took an administrator order due to the fact that men were dominating women by making them in constant panic. Three times saying in one time become final divorce but before him it was not like that.

    Woman is also given the right to take divorce from man known as “Khulaa” if she is not happy with him.

    Before his era, there was a process of divorce. Before telling the process I must say that we have popular sayings in Islam that divorce is that legal action which is not appreciated by God. So in Islam due to this process mostly people come back from their decisions of divorce. In the process of divorce, In Muhammad’s era and in 1st Caliph’s era, three or more times saying of the word divorce was consider as one even if a man say 10 times at a time. After giving 1st divorce, one has to wait for 3 periods of women to make 2nd divorce. Then once again after 2nd one has to wait for the same time for final divorce. Moreover if some woman is in her periods no man was allowed to give divorce. After completion the process of divorce, God orders Man to send woman back in very good manners giving some gifts or something.

    Chapter At-Talaq:. Verse 1. “O Prophet! When ye do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, and count (accurately), their prescribed periods: And fear Allah your Lord: and turn them not out of their houses, nor shall they (themselves) leave, except in case they are guilty of some open lewdness, those are limits set by Allah. and any who transgresses the limits of Allah, does verily wrong his (own) soul: thou knowest not if perchance Allah will bring about thereafter some new situation.”
    Verse 4 : . Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
    Verse6: 6 . Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable. And if ye find yourselves in difficulties, let another woman suckle (the child) on the (father's) behalf.


    Man makes woman in continues fear of separation by saying 1st divorce and then in waiting time taking it back. Due to this very reason 2nd Caliph made this administrator order that three times divorce in one time would be considered final. But we see that Era is changed now again. Now we have choices. We can follow any one of the true companions of Muhammad we want to. In the time when Quran was revealing that era was very simple as Islam is. If we want to understand Islam we have to see how the companions of Muhammad understand that. Where is my view is concern i'would try to follow what was common in Muhammad's era also define in Quran:

    Chapter Baqra : 228 . Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods.Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day.And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation.And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them.And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
    229 . A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness.It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah.If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom.These are the limits ordained by Allah.so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others).

    Thanks and Regards
    Last edited by usman.khawar; 04-27-2012 at 11:12 AM.
    Rab e adkhilni Mudkhla Sidqnw wa akhrijni mukhraja sidkanw wja alni milla dunka Sultananasira!!

  15. #15
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    Jehovah is the Anglican form of Yahweh. This is the God of Abraham as viewed by Christian-Judeo religions. There is a Godhead (Trinity) of deities who are the Father (Jehovah), the Son (Messiah/Christ), and the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God). Three distinct persons, but all completely united in purpose and power. All three were involved in the creation account in Genesis. Jehovah is only the Father in respect to showing the relationship of being the heir. All three are equal with the exception that Jesus willfully submitted to Jehovah as an example to others.

    Thank you! I have heard of Jehovah's witness is that anything to Jehovah's credibility as God. What I mean why witnesses?

    The Pharisees and Sadducees were two different sects similar to political parties at the time. Varying beliefs (i.e. the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, Pharisees did), but both Jewish. There were other sects as well, like the Essenes (who were the ones who discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls). The Pharisees would use semantics (technicalities) to benefit them. They would make a promise (and swear on the temple), but when it came time to fulfill the promise (contract) they would say that the promise wasn't valid because they didn't swear on the "gold" in the temple. It's like making a promise, but then say, "Sorry, I had my fingers crossed!"
    Got it!! presumably these sects are similar to what we call the sunnists and suffist in Islam right??
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

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