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Thread: a true agnostic?!

  1. #1
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    a true agnostic?!

    Is there such a thing?
    I was wondering whether agnosticsm can merit its own religion of beliefs of disbeliefs?
    How long would it last before one makes up their own mind about going one way or the other?
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

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    Most agnostics, in the way they describe their belief system, are really atheists. Either they don't know it, or they don't want to attach themselves to the word "atheist" because of the connotations some put on the word.

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    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    I think the words "agnostic" or "atheist" require a specific object which others would call a "God" they believe in. There are people who claim to be opposed to all Gods, but it seems too vague to me. So if that is the case, we are all agnostics or atheists since there is some conception of God we do not accept.

    The question of how long something lasts before a change occurs I find very interesting. Most of the time we don't seem to change much, but then something happens and suddenly we have a different way of looking at things. Change occurs quickly and then we live with that change for perhaps quite a while.

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    ShadowsCool ShadowsCool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi View Post
    Most agnostics, in the way they describe their belief system, are really atheists. Either they don't know it, or they don't want to attach themselves to the word "atheist" because of the connotations some put on the word.
    I agree with Mutatis in that an agnostic neither believes or disbelieves there is a God. Here's what I gathered about them:

    - A person who actively denies the existence of any and all deities is an Atheist.

    - A person who feels that we have no method by which we can conclude whether a deity exists is an Agnostic.

    Agnosticism is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God. An Agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence
    Last edited by ShadowsCool; 04-22-2012 at 10:08 AM.
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    In the fog Charles Darnay's Avatar
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    My experience with Agnostics is that they are more in line with "pagans" or even Neo-Platonist beliefs when it comes to spirituality.

    They generally want a form of spirituality (for many reasons) but being familiar only with the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God, they do not want the (forgive the expression) "baggage" that is the Tanakh/Bible/Koran, or the religious institutions.

    I knew someone who said they believed in God, and in most of the stuff in the Tanakh, but claimed to be agnostic simply because she could not identify herself with a faith (Jewish) whose fundamental text denounces homosexuals.

    So, while I agree with Shadow's distinctions on a philosophic level, I think Agnosticism is more a cultural movement - much like the 16th century Protestant movement - to discover a form of spirituality removed from the institution that controlled it (in that case, the Catholic Church.)
    I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...

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    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    I think the words "agnostic" or "atheist" require a specific object which others would call a "God" they believe in. There are people who claim to be opposed to all Gods, but it seems too vague to me.
    how do you mean by 'opposed to all Gods'?

    So if that is the case, we are all agnostics or atheists since there is some conception of God we do not accept.
    Even if one does not accept does that necessarily make one or the other?
    I am not so sure on this one.
    If the concept of God did not exist there will be neither.
    The question of how long something lasts before a change occurs I find very interesting. Most of the time we don't seem to change much, but then something happens and suddenly we have a different way of looking at things. Change occurs quickly and then we live with that change for perhaps quite a while.
    changes occur when we least expect them and so one would propably say never say never.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

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    ShadowsCool ShadowsCool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Darnay View Post
    My experience with Agnostics is that they are more in line with "pagans" or even Neo-Platonist beliefs when it comes to spirituality.

    They generally want a form of spirituality (for many reasons) but being familiar only with the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God, they do not want the (forgive the expression) "baggage" that is the Tanakh/Bible/Koran, or the religious institutions.

    I knew someone who said they believed in God, and in most of the stuff in the Tanakh, but claimed to be agnostic simply because she could not identify herself with a faith (Jewish) whose fundamental text denounces homosexuals.

    So, while I agree with Shadow's distinctions on a philosophic level, I think Agnosticism is more a cultural movement - much like the 16th century Protestant movement - to discover a form of spirituality removed from the institution that controlled it (in that case, the Catholic Church.)
    Makes sense, I agree
    shad·ow ing

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    All three stooges of history, namely theists, atheists, and agnostics, properly read, are atheists. The theist has a better chance to survive because he hides within the parameters of some inhibiting culture.

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    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    how do you mean by 'opposed to all Gods'?
    That's what is vague about it. How do you know you've covered all the possible conceptions one can come up for God?
    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    Even if one does not accept does that necessarily make one or the other?
    I am not so sure on this one.
    If the concept of God did not exist there will be neither.
    I assume if one says they don't believe in Allah or Jesus as a God they would be atheists or agnostics only with respect to either Allah or Jesus. They might believe in Yahweh or Rama or Zeus or Chance or something indefinite called Consciousness.
    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    changes occur when we least expect them and so one would propably say never say never.
    I agree.
    Last edited by YesNo; 04-22-2012 at 02:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowsCool View Post
    I agree with Mutatis in that an agnostic neither believes or disbelieves there is a God. Here's what I gathered about them:

    - A person who actively denies the existence of any and all deities is an Atheist.

    - A person who feels that we have no method by which we can conclude whether a deity exists is an Agnostic.

    Agnosticism is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God. An Agnostic is a person who feels that God's existence can neither be proved nor disproved, on the basis of current evidence
    One does not have to deny the existence of god to be an atheist, atheist just means a lack of belief in a god--nothing more, nothing less. Now, there are hardcore atheists who believe that without a doubt there is no god, but they're rare, because for them it's not a belief, it's a fact. Could there be a god? I guess, but i don't believe so.

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    ShadowsCool ShadowsCool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi View Post
    One does not have to deny the existence of god to be an atheist, atheist just means a lack of belief in a god--nothing more, nothing less.

    That's a befuddling statement. Contradictory in every sense. In all due respect.

    If an atheist thought there may be a God, as you suppose many do, then why would they choose not to believe? Out of hadred?
    Last edited by ShadowsCool; 04-22-2012 at 04:24 PM.
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    In the fog Charles Darnay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi View Post
    One does not have to deny the existence of god to be an atheist, atheist just means a lack of belief in a god--nothing more, nothing less. Now, there are hardcore atheists who believe that without a doubt there is no god, but they're rare, because for them it's not a belief, it's a fact. Could there be a god? I guess, but i don't believe so.
    I don't think this can work. It's like trying to reconcile the story of Creation as it appears in the Bible and the theory of evolution - I have seen it done, but it doesn't work.

    "Well," they say, "you see, when it says that God created the world in six days, those are days according to God's perception of time, not ours. Therefore the six days could have been billions of years, as evolution theory posits."

    "No," says I, "that is a cop-out. Get off the fence."

    You could reject God, but if you believe God exists and what is written is true, you are not an Atheist.
    I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...

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    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
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    No MM is right.

    Atheism is a stated disbelief in God, it doesn't have to mean one believes God is impossible, it's a statement of one's relationship to the answer of the question "Does God Exist?"

    Agnosticism is a statement of one's relationship to the nature of the question rather than the answer.

    Some agnostics can be theists and some can be atheists.
    "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
    - Margaret Atwood

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    ShadowsCool ShadowsCool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanPip View Post
    No MM is right.

    Atheism is a stated disbelief in God, it doesn't have to mean one believes God is impossible, it's a statement of one's relationship to the answer of the question "Does God Exist?"
    Which doesn't mean I am wrong by the way.

    It's a peculiar pickle to navigate being an atheist. One can believe there may be a God but not a God he or she is willing to associate with? Confusing indeed.
    shad·ow ing

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowsCool View Post
    That's a befuddling statement. Contradictory in every sense. In all due respect.

    If an atheist thought there may be a God, as you suppose many do, then why would they choose not to believe? Out of hadred?
    There's a difference in thinking there MAY be a god and that there COULD be a god.

    I don't believe there is a god, but I concede that, however unlikely the chance, there could be. I don't think there is, though. I don't believe people have been abducted by aliens, but it could have happened. I'm not sure what's confusing about this mindset.

    An theist doesn't believe there's a god. It's s simple idea that is often complicated. I guess, and I say this with respect, the difference between a lot of atheists and religious people is that we can conceded that there's a possibility we're wrong. Most religious people I've met don't think that way--for them, the existence of god is as certain as the sun rising.

    I didn't choose not to believe in god. I don't believe in god. I didn't in one day go from being a believer not not being one on a whim. I've tried believing in god. It doesn't work for me.
    Last edited by Mutatis-Mutandis; 04-22-2012 at 04:37 PM.

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