Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 36

Thread: Some Good Advice

  1. #1

    Some Good Advice

    "How sad you are", he wrote,
    Addressing Rahel Levin Varhagen,
    "Be cheerful, no need to feel so sad".
    Less than a month later,
    In October 1811 by the Wannsee,
    The writer of this letter,
    Heinrich von Kleist shot himself.

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    scotland
    Posts
    318
    Historical snippet, not in any sense a poem. Thought the real drama would have been the suicide pact with Henriette Vogel.

  3. #3
    I wonder how many times do I have to define "a poem" or, perhaps, what a poem is not.

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    5,046
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by vagantes View Post
    I wonder how many times do I have to define "a poem" or, perhaps, what a poem is not.
    Such as the above not being a poem?

  5. #5
    A poem is not a form of words arranged in a particular way; nor does it employ types of words which are heightened or inflated or not in common use. Nor should we seek to restrict poetry to language which contains imagery or which has a rhythm.

    If we say some writing is poetry because of technical reasons we are displaying an ignorance of cause and effect in poetry.

    Like all good writing poetry communicates. It provides an experience, which needs to be evaluated when we read.

    To me a poem provides an insight at some particular moment, which resonates far beyond the moment>

  6. #6
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Heart of the Dreaming
    Posts
    3,020
    Well, this is a poem in the sense that it has line breaks intentionally chosen by the author, but I know what hallaig is saying in that I'm not sure what else makes it poetic, per say. EG, I'm not sure what these line breaks add that would be absent if you wrote it out in prose. One minor suggestion would be to move "Heinrich von Kleist" to the end of the penultimate line and leave "shot himself" for the last line. That will put emphasis on the verb "shot" by being the first word in the line, and also by paring the last line down to only two words. It will also make a nice parallel to L2, which also opens with a verbal participle.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagantes View Post
    If we say some writing is poetry because of technical reasons we are displaying an ignorance of cause and effect in poetry.

    Like all good writing poetry communicates. It provides an experience, which needs to be evaluated when we read.

    To me a poem provides an insight at some particular moment, which resonates far beyond the moment>
    The problem is that if we don't define poetry in technical terms then we have no basis for separating it from any other kind of writing, because your second and third paragraphs here would apply to all kinds of writing that we would not declare poetry.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  7. #7
    So, poetry can only be something cast in a particular mode or method?

    Why should this be? Why seek to limit technically?

    I appreciate that creative writing is highly fashionable and that it is considered a good thing to learn how to produce different verse forms.

    And what a lot of dullard numbskulls that has produced.

    A poem is a moment of insight suddenly glimpsed. It is, almost by definition, fragmentary: like a shaft of sunlight in the middle of a cloudy day.

    Or as something more solid and substantial such as the National Health Service in the UK, which is a great piece of poetry both in conception and in its working out. For American readers - perhaps the Gettysburg Address.

    One of my favourite human beings was the poet A E Housman. Here are two poems about him:

    1. He failed his exams at University, but became a celebrated and much respected Latin Professor devoting his life to a 5 Volume edition of Manlius- perhaps the most boring poet who ever lived.

    2. Housman was diagnosed late in life with a heart condition. His rooms at Cambridge were on an upper floor and he would run upstairs hoping to induce a heart attack. I believe he died peacefully in bed.

    Why are these poems?

    Because they are startling in their insights into a mind of an extremely complex human being. And they are startling into their insights into life and the way we should live it.

    And if you cannot grasp what I am banging on about then poetry has passed you by.

    Study Mathematics as the lady once said to Rousseau.
    Last edited by vagantes; 05-03-2012 at 11:11 AM.

  8. #8
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Heart of the Dreaming
    Posts
    3,020
    There's a lot of people of the romantic, muddled brain type that revel in the ambiguity of definitions especially when it comes to things they're passionate about like poetry. To them, to lock something as divine as poetry down to a cold and clinical "definition" is as welcomed as death. You can call those two statements about AE Houseman poetry all you want, but you can not change reality by changing definitions. Those two statements are not anything close to any works that are traditionally called "poetry," and if you showed them to random people, nobody (including poets) would label them as poetry. If you want to do so, then be my guest, but you seem to be living in a world where you get to define words any way you want without having to synchronize your definitions with other minds. The great irony is that all poetry would lose all ability to communicate if nobody agreed what the words meant, yet when it comes to poetry itself there are people that think poetry loses all meaning unless it can mean anything and everything. You'll pardon me if I don't find it useful to embrace a definition of poetry that allows anything written in the history of mankind to be poetry regardless of its technical features, intentions, what it provokes in others, etc.

    Poetry is a moment of insight suddenly glimpsed? Well, the Einstein is the best poet that ever lived. Milton is one of the worst. I'm glad we cleared that up. And you'll pardon me if I don't find this piece poetry even by your own definition.
    Last edited by MorpheusSandman; 05-03-2012 at 11:17 AM.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  9. #9
    You seem to be agreeing with me.

    Glad I have convinced you.

  10. #10
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Heart of the Dreaming
    Posts
    3,020
    Considering you seem to think you can define words any way you want without the agreement of others, I guess you can glean from my last post that I'm agreeing with you. I think most wouldn't see it that way.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  11. #11
    Well you have chosen to describe Einstein as a great poet.

    That means you have started to think and read imaginatively.

    No writer could ask for more from their audience.

  12. #12
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Heart of the Dreaming
    Posts
    3,020
    Quote Originally Posted by vagantes View Post
    Well you have chosen to describe Einstein as a great poet. That means you have started to think and read imaginatively.
    I read most imaginatively when I was 2 and couldn't read at all. That seems to be what you want to reduce your audience to: 2-year-olds.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  13. #13
    All are at the crossroads qimissung's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lost in the bell's curve
    Posts
    4,943
    Blog Entries
    66
    REMINDER


    if you feel you are unable to show respect towards those who do not share your thoughts and beliefs.

    Posts containing personal and/or inflammatory comments will be removed without further warning.
    Last edited by qimissung; 05-03-2012 at 05:57 PM.
    "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its' own reason for existing." ~ Albert Einstein
    "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonzai
    "Some people say I done alright for a girl." Melanie Safka

  14. #14
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    The Heart of the Dreaming
    Posts
    3,020
    qimi, you should really be posting that here where vagantes has taken to attacking me directly. This thread is mild by comparison.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  15. #15
    This is a poem to me. The one bellow is a poem too.

    Best Brownies

    Preheat oven
    to 350 degrees.
    Grease and flour
    a square mould.
    In a large pan,
    melt butter.
    Remove from heat,
    and stir in sugar,
    eggs, and vanilla.
    Beat in cocoa,
    sifted flour, salt
    and baking powder.
    Spread batter
    into the mould.
    Bake until golden.
    Do not overcook.

    It is so because of how I internalize the text I read and how I create my own meanings in my reading.
    "You laugh at me because I'm different, I laugh at you because you're all the same."

    --Jonathan Davis

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Stuntpickle Morality
    By Rores28 in forum Religious Texts
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-31-2012, 10:37 PM
  2. Intrinsic good
    By Tarvaa in forum Philosophical Literature
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 11-23-2010, 01:28 AM
  3. Good Enough
    By jconley77 in forum Short Story Sharing
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-28-2010, 05:39 PM
  4. Does Good & Evil Exist
    By ron@y in forum Philosophical Literature
    Replies: 104
    Last Post: 09-18-2009, 12:06 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •