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Thread: The Singer or the Song?

  1. #16
    Registered User hawthorns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVW8GCnr9-I

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md4HB96MY-U

    These two examples of music... quite appropriate to the season... rank among the greatest musical achievements of the Renaissance. Gesualdo pushed the limits of traditional tonality to the breaking point... and then pulled back... achieving an unsettling sense of harmony.

    Gesualdo the man, on the other hand, was a violent and brutal individual:

    In 1586 Gesualdo married his first cousin, Donna Maria d'Avalos, the daughter of the Marquis of Pescara. Two years later she began a love affair with Fabrizio Carafa, the Duke of Andria. Evidently, she was able to keep it secret from her husband for almost two years, even though the existence of the affair was well-known elsewhere. Finally, on October 16, 1590, at the Palazzo San Severo in Naples, when Gesualdo had allegedly gone away on a hunting trip, the two lovers took insufficient precaution at last (Gesualdo had arranged with his servants to have keys to the locks of his palace copied in wood so that he could gain entrance if it were locked). Gesualdo returned to the palace, caught them in flagrante delicto and murdered them both in their bed. Afterward, he left their mutilated bodies in front of the palace for all to see. Being a nobleman he was immune to prosecution, but not to revenge, so he fled to his castle at Venosa where he would be safe from any of the relatives of either his wife or her lover.
    Details on the murders are not lacking, as the depositions of witnesses to the magistrates have survived in full. While they disagree on some details, they agree on the principal points, and it is apparent that Gesualdo had help from his servants, who may have done most of the killing; however, Gesualdo certainly stabbed Maria multiple times, shouting as he did, "she's not dead yet!" The Duke of Andria was found slaughtered by numerous deep sword wounds, as well as by a shot through the head. When he was found, he was dressed in women's clothing (specifically, Maria's night dress). His own clothing was found piled up by the bedside, unbloodied.

    The murders were widely publicized, including in verse by poets such as Tasso and an entire flock of Neapolitan poets, eager to capitalize on the sensation. The salacious details of the murders were broadcast in print, but nothing was done to apprehend the Prince of Venosa. The police report from the scene makes for shocking reading even after more than four hundred years.

    Accounts on events after the murders differ. According to some sources, Gesualdo also murdered his second son by Maria, who was an infant, after looking into his eyes and doubting his paternity (according to a 19th century source he "swung the infant around in his cradle until the breath left his body"); another source indicates that he murdered his father-in-law as well, after the man had come seeking revenge. Gesualdo had employed a company of men-at-arms to ward off just such an event. However, contemporary documentation from official sources for either of these alleged murders is lacking.

    By 1594, Gesualdo had arranged for another marriage, this time to Leonora d'Este, the niece of Duke Alfonso II... The relationship between Gesualdo and his new wife was not good; she accused him of abuse, and the Este family attempted to obtain a divorce. She spent more and more time away from the isolated estate. Gesualdo wrote many angry letters to Modena where she often went to stay with her brother.

    Late in life he suffered from depression. Whether or not it was related to the guilt over his multiple murders is difficult to prove, but the evidence is suggestive. According to Campanella, writing in Lyon in 1635, Gesualdo had himself beaten daily by his servants, keeping a special servant whose duty it was to beat him "at stool", and he engaged in a relentless, and fruitless, correspondence with Cardinal Borromeo to obtain relics, i.e., skeletal remains, of his uncle Carlo, with which he hoped to obtain healing for his mental disorder and possibly absolution for his crimes.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Gesualdo

    Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio, known commonly as Caravaggio, was one of the greatest and most influential artists in the whole of Western art history. He can virtually be credited with giving birth to the Baroque era... rejecting the artifice and extreme stylization of Mannerism, and returning to the naturalism of the Renaissance, yet infusing this with an unheard-of drama:





    Caravaggio began his career pandering homoerotic images of "pretty boys" to high-ranking clergy:



    Caravaggio was involved in an endless string of street brawls, gambling, and excessive drinking. He had a long police record that included numerous fights, the battering down of a door of a private home, the wounding of a police officer, the serious wounding of a knight, and the killing of one Ranuccio Tomassoni... reportedly as part of a duel over a dispute at a tennis match. His violent behavior led to his been repeatedly banished from one city-state to the next and the repeated loss of influential patrons. Toward the end of his life, at least one assassination was made, leaving him disfigured, and the high lead content in the bones presumed to be of the artist suggest he may have been the victim of poisoning... although lead was a major component in oil paint and an artist who was not careful could certainly ingest toxic levels.

    In both instances I am able to embrace the artist's achievements... the art... while condemning the artist as an individual. The reality is that many other artists in any field of artistic endeavor were less than ideal human beings. Beethoven and Michelangelo could be jerks. Picasso was a real a**hole. Rimbaud and Verlaine were both idiots. But this in no way affects my appreciation of their art.
    I saw those top two! Among my favorites.

  2. #17
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    I was going to mention Caravagio, but stlukes beat me to it, of course.

    I think the OP's answer depends on how much the author's/artist's views effect his art. Look at Orson Scott Card--he wrote some excellent stuff early in his career. But as he got older more and more f his political message infested his stories, and, no surprise, it is not at all liked by most.

  3. #18
    Registered User hawthorns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi View Post
    I was going to mention Caravagio, but stlukes beat me to it, of course.

    I think the OP's answer depends on how much the author's/artist's views effect his art. Look at Orson Scott Card--he wrote some excellent stuff early in his career. But as he got older more and more f his political message infested his stories, and, no surprise, it is not at all liked by most.
    Same thing happened with John Le Carre. Went from incredible to intolerable.

  4. #19
    First of all it is not a question of valuing writers because of an implied message.

    My point is that there is a link between literature and moral well being and because of that link it may well be that we should consider the moral character of a writer when we are evalating their work.

    As a slight aside I would mention Bibliotherapy which is a way of using literature to deal with mental health problems. In fact the more I think about it, it is not an aside at all , but something rather central.

  5. #20
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    My point is that there is a link between literature and moral well being...

    Is there? And how does this apply to artists/authors whose moral stances are diametrically opposed?

    ...it may well be that we should consider the moral character of a writer when we are evalating their work.

    So we are to evaluate or judge a work of art based upon an issue that has nothing to do with art and is based upon our own moral values or standards. Thus a strict orthodox Jew or Christian should dismiss the work of a writer or painter or architect who was homosexual?

    As a slight aside I would mention Bibliotherapy which is a way of using literature to deal with mental health problems. In fact the more I think about it, it is not an aside at all , but something rather central.

    Oh no... another variation on Art Therapy.
    Beware of the man with just one book. -Ovid
    The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.- Mark Twain
    My Blog: Of Delicious Recoil
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  6. #21
    It might be to the point if the ideas promoted were discussed instead of flippantly and somewhat shallowly dismissing points raised.

    On the other hand this may well be an illustration of how education appears to have failed.

  7. #22
    In the fog Charles Darnay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagantes View Post
    My point is that there is a link between literature and moral well being
    Ah, herein lies the issue. It's fine to believe this - I'm not going to tell you what to believe - but this is not "an accepted fact", and I think many who have posted on this thread would disagree with this claim - at least in a general sense.

    I don't believe that there is a link between literature and moral well being an a way that produces any insight. Person A reads a book and becomes a serial killer. Person B reads a book and devotes his life to philanthropy. What moral well-being is literature supporting?
    I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...

  8. #23
    Ruskin thought there was. So did Mill. That's the purpose of my examples.

    It's not that there's a causal link between reading and actions, but rather that by reading there is an effect, which in simple terms does you good and is more or less so proven.

    Now if moral truths can be gained from Literature it would almost inescapably follow that moral worth is important when we evaluate particular writers. It therefore might be considered important if a particular writer llived in a way which was seen to be untrustworthy.

  9. #24
    In the fog Charles Darnay's Avatar
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    In that case I consider Mill untrustworthy. I like his writing, but he was too far removed from the world itself for me to take anything from his ethical philosophy.
    I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by vagantes View Post
    It might be to the point if the ideas promoted were discussed instead of flippantly and somewhat shallowly dismissing points raised.
    Or maybe it's that a number of us don't agree with your assertions about literature and something as open to interpretation as 'moral truths'.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagantes View Post
    On the other hand this may well be an illustration of how education appears to have failed.
    And it might help if you tone down the patronizing attitude.
    Last edited by Pierre Menard; 04-09-2012 at 12:35 PM.
    Vladimir: (sententious.) To every man his little cross. (He sighs.) Till he dies. (Afterthought.) And is forgotten.

  11. #26
    Mill cured his nervous breakdown by reading Wordsworth.

    Now how did he do that?

    Curious that you are evaluating Mill by your opinion of his character.

    I worry about some comments on here which appear to indicate that basic reading skills are not being taught in schools.

    What seems to be taught instead is to value commonplace opinion and the ability to make snap judgements based on rigid mindsets.

    Accepted critical thinking is to place value on the text.

    But who owns the text?

    And if the text belongs to the reader, who can place meaning where they will, then what determines worth. If it is because the reader gains something from the text then is not he or she finding truths within the text placed there by the writer? The author needs to be respected. If they are to be respected then how they lived, thought and behaved has an importance.

    Glib, slipshod second-hand opinions do not provide satisfaction.

  12. #27
    In the fog Charles Darnay's Avatar
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    My comment on Mill was partially a joke....but he was indeed removed from the world.

    Also, there is a line somewhere that has to be drawn. If we are discussing moral philosophers, or socio-political philosophers, then I agree with you 100% that we should be looking at their character when reading their work, because their work is quite literally imposing their views on us and telling us how to live. This is not so explicitly the case in "literature" - by which I understand as fiction - or even in metaphysical, epistemology, or aesthetic philosophy.

    So if we are talking about Mill, or Kant - then yes, we must look at the author's character. If we are talking about Dickens and Hemingway - not necessarily.
    I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagantes View Post
    It might be to the point if the ideas promoted were discussed instead of flippantly and somewhat shallowly dismissing points raised.

    On the other hand this may well be an illustration of how education appears to have failed.
    Or maybe it would help if you actually offered a bit of elucidation on your points instead of throwing single sentences out there and expect people to respond thoroughly (or ignore someone's point if it doesn't directly adhere to what you wanted to discuss). You throw out that bilbiotherapy is a relevant point. Why? How?

    You complain about the forums reading skills? I think the problem is your writing skills.

  14. #29
    Registered User hawthorns's Avatar
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    As a slight aside I would mention Bibliotherapy which is a way of using literature to deal with mental health problems. In fact the more I think about it, it is not an aside at all , but something rather central.
    I have to admit, the classics have been therapeutic for me. Proust was a literary anti-depressant for 18 months. A lot cheaper than pills.

    But how is this related to moral truths or a writer's character? I think I missed something. Happens a lot... Proust for the most part was an extreme reclusive, odd, and (amoral?) individual. Not exactly someone I'd want to emulate. And yet his insights on the human psyche, memory, etc. spoke to me.
    Last edited by hawthorns; 04-09-2012 at 02:16 PM.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    The Birth of a Nation...?
    I'm talking about that innovative (if horribly racist and ultimately evil) DW Griffiths film which Woodrow Wilson called "lightning in a bottle" and helped spark the second rise of the KKK. o_o It was a great work of art in the service of an absolutely evil cause.

    LOL I'm Episcopalian and homosexual. I still find the relationship between moral truth and religion in something to be important to its premise. The moral truth of something is both inextricably linked entirely separate from its respective religion in word. Take for example, the Birth of a Nation, which claims to be Christian but in reality embraces violence and polarization as opposed to brotherly love... The only way the religion of the author is particularly relevant to our debate is the level of congruence the message of the work shows with the author's particular spirituality, either shedding light on their hypocrisy, as in the case of Griffiths and Conrad, or their immense guilt, spiritual angst, and depth of thought, as in the case of Faulkner, Gesualdo, Dostoevsky, Joyce, Britten, Nabokov, Mann, and countless other true artistic geniuses.
    Last edited by dysfunctional-h; 04-09-2012 at 02:46 PM. Reason: clarity~
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