What are your thoughts about feminism as a movement and philosophy? I don't even want to give my thoughts right now because I don't want to influence any others.
What are your thoughts about feminism as a movement and philosophy? I don't even want to give my thoughts right now because I don't want to influence any others.
Yay for feminism!
But, when it becomes a matter of equality for convenience, and it's more for advantage than out of the essential rightness of the universe, then it's just inappropriate.
For example: The army. Women wanna be signed in for the front lines, which is fine. But, then they ask for the lifting requirements to be lowered, because they are not as physically strong as men.
An army applicant for the front lines must carry such-and-such a weight, because they have to carry backpacks and whatnot across fields... So, lowering the weight means that the backpack, of the weight designated, cannot be carried. So somebody else has to carry it for you. So you're holding back the team. Bad news bears.
A common example I think most should agree with is gentlemanly gesture: Opening a door for a lady out of respect, taking the time to pull out the chair.. When the lady gets snappy, well, that's just rude. I'm sure there are ladies out there who do the same for men, and it's not like they get snappy. Traditional gentlemanlyness is something to be cultivated, not scorned, in my opinion at least.
And then there are women who will argue that men and women are already the same. It's simply not true. I think we should all admit that we're all different, we all have weaknesses and strengths.
But, when it comes to the workplace, and general attitudes, obviously it's only right that women get neither special treatment, nor being looked down upon. Women should have every right that a man does. But, as said, they should be willing to work just as hard, if not harder for it to become physically strong in appropriate fields, if they need to.
There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written or badly written. ~Oscar Wilde.
I think it is too broad an issue to give a single opinion on. There are examples of feminism that are great (such as raising awareness about the gross inequalities in the workplace that still exist today) and then there are there examples of people trying to use feminism to promote their personal ideas despite how many people (of both sexes) disagree.
I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...
I think there are cetain differences between the sexes that are a result of biology and socialisation as a starting point. Men and women are not the same.
Having said that, it is no reason to label people and discriminate against them. I thought the whole equal wages thing in the UK had been done and dusted years ago, but apparently there are still cases of discrimination on the grounds of sex where the woman is not on a waged parity with men.
Though they are in a minority, there are women who can physically do as much or more than men in certain fields. There are women commandos now who have passed the course, and I think they have to do it on equal terms with the men.
Where I live, we have dustbin ladies - is it scavengers or garbage operatives in the US? - which has been unheard of before. (We now have wheeled bins which anyone could manouvre, so why not?). There are female plumbers and engineers. Great. I'm all for it.
Some of the more recent feminists - so I heard in interviews - have revised the original view of feminism as anti family where the family was seen as a structure for the oppression of women. I think what they're saying is that if women want to raise families and be Mothers, then that should be celebrated, just as the achievements of women in careers should be celebrated too. It should be a personal choice which path an individual takes without prejudice or pressure.
One area where there is a lot of potential for problems for women is where there has been immigration, and the family has retained it's culture and expectations of the role of women within that. In the UK there have been so called honour killings of sisters and daughters where the expectations of the family have clashed with an adopted western attitude. I hasten to add that though it is a recognised problem, such extremity is not widespread practice here, but no doubt presents problems for some.
Last edited by Paulclem; 03-03-2012 at 09:00 PM.
For me, feminism is a matter of the choices, opportunities and the rights of women being equal to that of men. In this century I think women are not too far off achieving a pretty equal playing field in this respect but there are some opportunities that are harder to acquire than men and perhaps some that are still closed altogether even in the 21st century. I think feminism is being able to choose to work and learn and do whatever a man is 'allowed' to do without people thinking we're an inferior species who simply to not possess the knowledge/intellect/sense that a man does. I find it hard to grasp that women were ever denied this right and were thought of as incapable of thinking as men do.
But I do find that some feminists are unrealistic. Women should accept that at the highest of physical strength and power, woman is certainly not equal to a man at his highest. Also, (I might get shot for this) but I think the same goes for intellect in certain respects, hence why mostly men have been the great innovators, inventors and thinkers. However, VERY few men and women are at the highest possible peak, so I'm not saying that all men are stronger and cleverer than women because we all know that that is simply not true in any shape or form - but mankind at his highest is always going to beat womankind at her highest.
I also think that if a woman chooses to have children they should be there for that child as a mother really should and if that means not working, I think that is important. This is really because I think that society benefits from children growing up with a mother in the house to properly care and nurture. When considering feminism in terms of a marriage/relationship, I think it's important that any marriage is based on equality and respect. So, I would never marry a man who expected tea on the table after work and ironed shirts in the drawers etc. just because I am the woman in the relationship.
I do agree with Charles D that feminism is a complex subject with many considerations and it is very much subjective.
Last edited by Veho; 03-03-2012 at 09:00 PM.
"...You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?..." E. A. Poe
I like and I dislike feminism. I dislike the idea it introduced which posits that men and women are indentical in every way but anatomy. And I hate that feminism often demeans traditional females roles, like homemaker and mother. It has unleashed upon women the same money-obsession that has forever plagued men. Some women are happier in the kitchen and the nursery than they are in the board-room or cubicle. These women shouldn't be made to feel any weaker or lesser on account of their own chosen priorities. Raising good kids is a great ambition and noble occupation. These women have my respect.
I like feminism because it really has given women more freedom and more opportunities than they had in the more male dominated society that preceded the movement. If a woman wants to be a doctor or lawyer or politician then it should be only merit, not gender, that predicts her success. If I worked in an office and had a female boss I would think nothing of it. But if this was 1950, before the triumph of feminism, I would probably regard such a situation as absurd and emasculating.
Last edited by Darcy88; 03-04-2012 at 03:42 PM.
The idea that men and women are identical is called structuralist feminism, which posits that everything that makes a woman a woman is cultural, and the idea of "the feminine" should be suppressed. The other theory is essentialist feminism, which says that women are indeed born with inherently feminine traits, and that they should be embraced. Right now, the latter seems to be the more popular mindset. Plus, the "all men are bad" idea of the early feminist movements that have caused so many to dislike feminism just aren't as prevalent as they once were.Originally Posted by Darcy88
This is true. That sort of militant type of feminism that has dictated what women could and couldn't do: things like saying women couldn't dress pretty and wear jewelry, couldn't let men help the (or even be in relationships with men), couldn't be stay home mothers; all this has, more-or-less gone away.
I was at a recent lecture that talked about how one of the biggest battles for feminists is trying to convince people, men and women, that there are no longer any set-in-stone beliefs that one must adhere to to be a feminist. A woman can like to dress up and wear jewelry, be doted on by her boyfriend; a woman can even be pro-life and feminist.
I'm taking a theory class on feminism right now which is what inspired me to bring this up.*
Last edited by Mutatis-Mutandis; 03-03-2012 at 11:41 PM.
Alright, people keep saying this. I need clarification. What non-physical quality might I, as a woman, posess that will never be posessed by a man and vice versa?
Last edited by JuniperWoolf; 03-04-2012 at 05:32 AM.
__________________
"Personal note: When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once when I was six, I did. At first the brightness was overwhelming, but I had seen that before. I kept looking, forcing myself not to blink, and then the brightness began to dissolve. My pupils shrunk to pinholes and everything came into focus and for a moment I understood. The doctors didn't know if my eyes would ever heal."
-Pi
Thankyou! You must have a good Mom!
Agreed. And being a gentleman has nothing to do with feminism, I think. It is just polite and gentlemanly!
1) men have impulses which may lead certain men to rape women. Women do not.
2) Your average man is stronger and faster than your average woman
3) Your average woman is more organized than your average man.
4) Your average woman will cry more times in her life than your average man
Also in highschool and university I have discovered the pehnomenon that Men socialize by insulting each other in a playful manner, while women socialize by complimenting each other in a viscous manner.
Although I haven't actually defined a metric on what "organized" means nor taken a random sample, that's a feature I would not have guessed distinguished men from women.
Since I haven't been at a university in two decades, discussions of "feminism" with people I actually know just doesn't occur. As I think about it, I don't even know what feminism is. Neither do we talk about things like "Marxism" or "existentialism" for that matter. Sometimes I think discussions of feminism are more like mating rituals that occur among people who haven't yet found a partner, but I don't want to belittle any political efforts at equality by that comment.
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
Those are all good ones. I've noticed women look in mirrors and reflective surfaces a lot, many even carry one around in their purse. I don't know if it can be proven, but I'm pretty sure that men are as whole more prone to physical aggression than women are. If I was at a bar and feeling very horny I'd take home even an average looking girl. A girl of looks comparable to mine would probably rather go home alone than lower her standards like that. A stay at home mother may have some misgivings, may wish rather that she be out working, but for most men the prospect of being a stay at home father is degrading and emasculating, and its not just a cultural thing, I believe its to an extent in our genes that men be hunters and women be mothers and tenders to domestic things. There are differences in brain structure between the sexes. The corpus callosum in women is thicker and has more connection, making women better "multi-taskers." Makes sense since hunting is a rather focused activity while keeping your child safe from cliffs or predators while picking berries and gossiping about Lorf's spiffy new lion-skin loin-cloth and what a little slut that new cro-magnum hussy Grindla is would take a much more diversified pattern of brain activity. The part of the brain in which emotion is centred is larger and more active in women (the limbic system I think.) This latter difference is the reason women can seem more emotional and erratic and suffer higher rates of depression. We also can't discount the difference in behaviour caused by the differing amounts of testosterone and estrogen featured in either sex. I remember reading a feminist take on the biblical story of Abraham and Isaac. The writer argued that no woman would sacrifice her son, not for anything, even God. She argued that men are more abstract, women more emotional. I agree. I believe we are complimentary parts that unite to complete a perfect beautiful whole.
Last edited by Darcy88; 03-04-2012 at 01:59 PM.
5) Men rarely tend to bleed for several consecutive days every month and for those days become volatile sentimental storms.
6) Men are more prone to substance abuse than women.
7) Women have higher self-expectations when it comes to personal beauty. A man in his teenage years will discover all the faults in his visage. At first he will try to alter, but by the end of puberty he will look into the mirror and findhimself comfortable with his facial flaws. A woman will not find herself comfortable with her facial flaws until much later in life. An average looking man 20 soemthing man is more likley to have a higher self-esteem than a 20 something average looking woman, because he has realized my face is flawed but that is ok, for the women the fact that her face is flawed is more of a big deal - beauty matters more to women than to men. This may also be because men care more about beauty in their choice of partner than women. For both sexes beauty is important, but the average man will first fall in love with what he see's, the average woman will first fall in love with what she hears. Ofcourse there are exceptions such as me myself and I, my expectations for personal beauty are in line with those of the average woman not your average man.
7) Men are more prone to homophobia, than women, this is clearly seen by conversation within all male or all female groups. The adjective "gay" frequently being used as a jocular insult amongst male friends. I do not think this is a cultural phenomenon, men on the whole are more likley to find homosexuality uncomfortable than women, because amongst males the concept of the "conquest" and "sport" of womanizing plays a very important part in male pride and relations.
8) Men are more violent than women, war so far in history is a male dominated art. Sure nowadays we have women in the army, but they are a small % comapred to men, and the percentage is even smaller when looking at the troops who fight on the front lines. For a man it is easier to kill than for a woman, it is in our nature. Also men are predisposed to view war from the point of "Glory" - for men war was always seen as a way to demonstrate barvery and greatness, it is war which makes many men imortal. Women on the other hand rareley see the "glory" of war that men do.
Last edited by Alexander III; 03-04-2012 at 02:37 PM.
That's all nice and dandy Alex, although it still has problems with empiricism. But you completely missed the point of Robin's question, none of those things are evidence of what is exclusive to men or women, apart from the physiological process of menstruation (which was excluded from her question).
Also, you and Darcy are simply belabouring against a strawman anyway. There are few feminist, if any who posit that men and women are identical except for culture. Even the most ardent of constructivist would not say that. The point of structuralist feminism isn't to argue that what is feminine and what is masculine are not biological, it is to argue that cultural attitudes about femininity and masculinity are in part culturally constructed, despite an assumption of naturalness that pervades our current culture. This is obviously true, a simple survey of historical ideas about masculinity and femininity across multiple cultures will tell you this.
The point isn't to make everyone believe that women and men are identical, but to undermine several assumptions of normative gender that generate barriers to social equality.
Gender equality does not mean a lack of gender difference, it means that neither gender is assumed to be arbitrarily inferior.
Last edited by OrphanPip; 03-04-2012 at 03:51 PM.
"If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
- Margaret Atwood
If proving and proliferating that principle is the goal of feminism then I am a feminist. But I really have encountered the "men and women are identical in all but anatomy" perspective countless times. I've had multiple professors argue it before the class. The differences are primarily biological and not cultural. I was called a misogynist once by a women's studies major for saying this.
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