Where does the authority lie?

[Shea]

On my way home this evening, I passed a church building that had a sign posted out front stating their times of service. Not only that, it also stated the type of service that it would be; informal, contemporary, or traditional. My question is, where do they get the athuority to change the worship service other than to do what was commanded of us in the Bible? God set certain rules for us to follow, and if we don't follow them, aren't we guilty of itching ears? (See Tim 4: 2-4) Many people pose the argument that "Well, society changes and we just want to bring the people in the door." So people presume that they can bring God down to the level of society instead of bringing people to God with truth as He commanded.

God doesn't change, so why should our worship to Him have to?

Hebrews 6: 17-20
Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

He didn't say that if you change and have 3 different types of services that you are OK. So who has the authority to say that these forms of worship are acceptable?

[Admin]

I don't think you'll find a strict description of what worship must be in the bible. The traditional worship style was created by the Catholic Church.

[Shea]

Is it possible to post a reply here? I've tried twice already, now I'm going to sleep...

[Shea]

Ok, I'll try this in parts. :x
I beg to differ with your statement Admin. Scince this is a Bible index, lets look at some verses... we'll start in John 14,

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Later in chapter 15;

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

[Shea]

I know this is a lot already but evidently obeying God's word was important to Jesus. 1 Corinthians is a good book to refer to. It's a letter that Paul wrote to the Church in Corinth, explaining how members of Christ's church ought to conduct themselves and how the church should operate. In fact, he rebukes them for problems they were having within the church.

1Corinthians 11:17-22
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

So, how did the first christians worship?

[Shea]

They sang (without instruments I might add),

Ephesians 5:19-21
19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Colossians 3:16-17
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

They gave and offering (tithing ended with the old covanent),

1Corinthians 16:1-2
Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

[Shea]

They observed the Lord's Supper and preached.

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

No offense, but Catholic traditions were started 150 years later by men like Augustine, Origen, and one who's name starts with an "I". (Sorry, I don't have my references with me right now, but if you'd like them later l can have them for you.) They began traditions like infant baptism and transsubstantiation (the belief that the wafer and the wine actually become Christ's body and blood). They also invented religious holidays like Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day, etc... by taking a pagan holiday and giving it a biblical theme. Look at Galatians 4;

8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

[Shea]

Just because these men lived a long time ago, still dosen't give them authority to change our worship toward God.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to get on a soapbox, but growing up as a Catholic, I never read the Bible and I was having a hard time following a faith that changed the rules every so many years and had no foundation for me to turn to. My salvation is important to me and I'd rather know what God's commands are for me by going to the Word that He left for me instead of letting a man tell me what they are.

Whew, I guess the length is what kept my reply from going through, but at least I got several drafts in before this one! Oh, I'm done now.

By the way, to everyone, I'm getting married in 2 weeks and won't be able to post as much, seeing as how I haven't finished making my dress yet!

I'm going to sleep...

[Admin]

So like I said, there isn't anything specific in the bible.

There is nothing that says "You must wear nice clothes to worship"

It says sing songs, pray, and offer money.

That is pretty general in my opinion, I doubt that the Church you are talking about goes against that. Additionally if someone offers an informal mass and people who wouldn't otherwise pray go to this mass, isn't that a good thing?

[Shea]

Ok then, let's look at specifics!

1 Corinthians 10:14-22
14Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Hmm.... flee from idolatry, that sounds familiar... what about the second commandment- the one that talks of no graven images? My Webster's dictionary describes a graven image as an idol made of stone or wood. We are no longer under the old covanant but that point sounds like a reinstatment to me. I have yet to walk in a Catholic church that didn't have an idol.

1Corinthians 11:1-16
1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[1] just as I passed them on to you.
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[2] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
11In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

[Shea]

Ephesians 5:6-17
6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9(for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
15Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

1Corinthians 14:34-35
34As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Timothy Chapter 2
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[1] will be saved[2] through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

[Shea]

1 Peter 3:3-5
3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,

Much of the way that we dress has to do with our culture. We must not be flashy otherwise we fall under the sin of pride. And due to our culture, we dress in a way that shows respect towards others.

And to address your question, read what Christ said in Matthew 7,

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Even though people claim to be followers of Christ, if they do not teach in truth it is useless. As I said before, we cannot presume to bring God down to the level of society. If we don't follow His commands in the way that He desires, we are no better than the Isrealites who formed a calf to worship while Moses was on the mountain, all because they wanted to worship a god that they could see.

[Shea]

Oh, what about this passage,

Matthew 15:1-9
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' "

Christ rebuked the teachers of the law for teaching things that are contrary to God's word. How is it any different for us today?

And one more note about clothing in worship,

5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Chist rebuked the scribes and pharisees for wearing extensive clothing. Does that not sound like Catholic priest garb falls under that? Also he disapproves of religious titles. Here my Grandmother would say, "Oh, you don't have to call a priest 'father'!" But if Christ explicitly said don't do it, why then teach it?

[Admin]

You know, taking the bible literally is a bad idea. Leviticus for example has many things that do not make sense in today's society.

19:9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Hmm? Someone should inform the farmers.

19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Adultry is okay if it is with a slave?

19:23 And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.

19:24 But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal.

So you can only eat fruit in the fourth year?

19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

I'm in trouble, I have a goatee... and my fiance she has a few tattoos.

20:17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

So if a man accidentially sees his sister naked they shall be banished? And if a man sleeps with a woman on her period they shall be banished? Good thing we all have 2 beds.

20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Indeed, wizards all over the place, we need to do something about the wizard epidemic.

21:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people: 21:2 But for his kin, that is near unto him, that is, for his mother, and for his father, and for his son, and for his daughter, and for his brother.

21:3 And for his sister a virgin, that is nigh unto him, which hath had no husband; for her may he be defiled.

21:4 But he shall not defile himself, being a chief man among his people, to profane himself.

21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

People on the swim team shave their heads.... it is a sin.

25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

And then there is slavery.

Christian Fundamentalism is no less wrong than Islamic Fundamentalism. Religious fundamentalism is dangerous, it always has been, no matter what your religion. Remember, it is not for you to judge other people.

If you think that women should cover their heads in Church then you're no different than muslims who think women should cover everything out of doors. It is the same concept. You think people who are as formal in church as you are are sinners, or aren't worthy enough to worship your God, then what does that make you?

Why does it even matter to you? It is not your place to judge others. I think you need to go to church more often and instead of judging the other worshippers listen to the sermon. There will probably be something about loving your neighbor mentioned.

And remember, how someone else chooses to worship is none of your business. It is between them and God, and unless you think you're God then you have no right to judge them.

[apstudent]

Amen, Brother! o

That is what I am thinking. I go to a very laid back church and worship jsut the same as everyone else. Are you saying that I am wrong because I do not worship in the same way as others. Are you saying that Contemporary Christian music is wrong, because it was not around in the times of Christ. I am a very faithful Christian, and it hurts when people tell me that I am not worshipping correctly.