Sarah Woodruff in The French Lieutenant's Woman by John Fowles. Particularly as he doesn't try to explain her, just presents her. And she's a strong, independent woman of her time.
Sarah Woodruff in The French Lieutenant's Woman by John Fowles. Particularly as he doesn't try to explain her, just presents her. And she's a strong, independent woman of her time.
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Meryl StreepOriginally Posted by TheFifthElement
Although she may be a bit doomed, I'm inclined to add Tess to my list. Feminists may argue that she is a passive weak figure and so Hardy is being misogynistic but I disagree. As I see it, the story is about two men's unsuccessful attempts to mold Tess into their ideal woman, and both men find that she defies their definition.
Having just reread Flags in the Dust, Virginia Sartoris Du Pre is a highly worthy candidate. Indomitable and strong-willed she comes to run the Sartoris household, outliving all of its men, and enduring countless tragedies with an iron will whereas the men of the family utterly fail to cope and sublimate their fear into fatalistic vainglory. In fact, she often foresees the sad fate of the Sartoris men with a perspicacity bordering on prophecy.
I like Hester Prynne from The Scarlet Letter a lot. She's one of the reasons why I fell for literature. But I don't know if he got writing a woman character right or not though.
When I first read this thread, all I could think of is the line from As Good as It Gets when young woman asks the Jack Nicholson character (a famous novelist), "how can you write women so well?"
And he responds, "I think of a man. . . .and I take away reason and accountability".
“Oh crap”
-- Hellboy
I didn't know that men thought of women as unreasonable and unaccountable. How dissapointing.
__________________
"Personal note: When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once when I was six, I did. At first the brightness was overwhelming, but I had seen that before. I kept looking, forcing myself not to blink, and then the brightness began to dissolve. My pupils shrunk to pinholes and everything came into focus and for a moment I understood. The doctors didn't know if my eyes would ever heal."
-Pi
Only some men, and only some women.I just though that line was pretty funny. Women are great -- they're a lot like men too: some are nice, and some are mean, some pretty and some are ugly, some are inspired, some are insipid, some are happy and some are sad, some are short and some are tall. . . .and on and on.
“Oh crap”
-- Hellboy
Well... alright.
It always feels like people are talking about me when they make negative generalizations like that about women (me being, after all, a woman, so if they're talking about "women," who else could they be talking about?). If they're talking about me then it's personal and the reaction is always "but I'm not unaccountable/manipulative/stupid/irrational/useless..." followed by sadness. I think it might be the same for every group around which stereotypes cluster, eg. Mexicans are lazy, black people are criminals, Jews are cheap, ect. If you're a Jew, and they're calling Jews cheap, then they're calling you cheap.
Steroptypes about women are so prevelant that it feels like I'm being called horrible things almost every day, even by people like you who I respect and like (also my friends, my father, my favorite teachers and writers, it's... confusing and frustrating).
Last edited by JuniperWoolf; 09-11-2011 at 10:25 PM.
__________________
"Personal note: When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once when I was six, I did. At first the brightness was overwhelming, but I had seen that before. I kept looking, forcing myself not to blink, and then the brightness began to dissolve. My pupils shrunk to pinholes and everything came into focus and for a moment I understood. The doctors didn't know if my eyes would ever heal."
-Pi
The only thing that I'll add is that the OP was asking for generalizations -- what male writer got "women" right. And I briefly posted one of my favorite female characters written by a male -- Hester Prynne -- whose strength of will, individualism, and devotion to principle are qualities that I greatly admire in anyone, man or woman. Then I added a second comment to simply play around a little because Hester is anything but "unaccountable" and is only "unreasonable" a few times. That and I kind of like the idea that men and women aren't much different.
I guess if one were to write a woman that pictured "women" right, then, for me the character would not be all amazing and ever-strong, perfectly reasonable, and utterly accountable. That character would be fragile at times, strong at other times, confused over what to do next, and at other times she would be certain and confident. And sometimes her confidence would be misplaced and misdirected. And other times her confidence would be a model for others to follow.
She'd be foolish and vain at times. Then other times she'd be wise and self-effacing. She'd be jealous and compassionate, forgiving and cruel. . . . . . She'd be neither particularly admirable nor particularly despicable, except in moments for each. Self-righteous and timid, and on and on. . . .
Anyway, I'm sorry if my quip offended you. That was not my intention.
“Oh crap”
-- Hellboy
Charles Dickens portrayal of Amy Dorrit in Little Dorrit is a character worth mentioning.
Some of the traits that make her character worthwhile are the leadership skills she finds within herself, helping her siblings that look like have the physical traits of an adult get career training or employment.
One of her conflicts is hiding certain facts from her dad, like her employment or frugality (stealing food from work).
Compared to other literary females like Joan of Arc, Juliet or Ophelia, she has conflict with her relations (sister that dislikes her frugality/genuineness, father that doesn't work, and an absent brother), against worldy prejudices (one being her smallness, another being the lack of support her family provides) and finding independence (she always works for the better of her family, as opposed to her own personal gain).
The novel is titled after her so it is difficult to make a detailed comparison with other characters. Few works I am familiar with dedicate so much effort to exploring a female character and the world around her.
Last edited by author1500less; 09-11-2011 at 10:58 PM.
Yes, don't think questions like the OP's don't irritate me as well, and not only when people are asking for archetype of females. In the Fashion thread last week I believe that it was MarkBastable who posed the question of what "makes" a man, followed by various theories about what qualities a male must possess in order to be considered such. It's all complete bunk, there's no standard of behaviour encompassed by all and to insist that there is limits us (it limits what is socially acknowledged or accepted, which either puts pressure on us to be a certain way or calls us "exceptions" if we aren't that way).
I don't mean to sound like some politically-correct dick regurgitating the latest public service broadcast (although I realize that this is exactly what I sound like), the things that I've really do weigh on my mind a lot. You also run a high risk of ruining a joke which people seem to enjoy when you decide to make a comment about generalizations, but you have to admit that they are irritatingly common and the frustration just kind of builds until after the umpteenth steotype that you encounter about a group of which you just-so-happen to belong to generates within you a strong desire to struggle against the whole practice (and for the record, I am sorry that it is you that I'm reacting against right now - I'm only doing so because it's only people that I respect who can faze me).
Also, because I mentioned gender sterotypes in comedy previously in my rather inconcise and probably ineffectual diatribe and because this started with your appreciation for a line in a comedy which implies that strangers consider me subhuman (not that I'm bitter or anything), I'd like to just briefly point out that as a great fan of the genre, the what I like to call "take my wife... please" jokes are low humor indeed. Any lunkhead could hammer them out as easily as breathing (just ask Virgil or Emil, they rely heavily on them). Give me the subtleties of the Kids in the Hall's brand of humor, or the unique insights to be found in South Park's better episodes. Now that's gold. Comedy is an artform, and gender comedy is the equivelant of the caricature.
Last edited by JuniperWoolf; 09-12-2011 at 06:38 AM.
__________________
"Personal note: When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once when I was six, I did. At first the brightness was overwhelming, but I had seen that before. I kept looking, forcing myself not to blink, and then the brightness began to dissolve. My pupils shrunk to pinholes and everything came into focus and for a moment I understood. The doctors didn't know if my eyes would ever heal."
-Pi
Wow that is a long and well thought out post. I hope you didn't spend to much time on it, thinking to much distracts women from the ironing and sandwich making duties.
Blow me, you fop.
Last edited by JuniperWoolf; 09-12-2011 at 11:11 AM.
__________________
"Personal note: When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once when I was six, I did. At first the brightness was overwhelming, but I had seen that before. I kept looking, forcing myself not to blink, and then the brightness began to dissolve. My pupils shrunk to pinholes and everything came into focus and for a moment I understood. The doctors didn't know if my eyes would ever heal."
-Pi
I think Gontscharov did a very good job on "Anisia", the wife of Oblomows servant, Sachar. While she is not a main character, let alone a heroine or a beauty, she is completely convincing in her position.
As for Olga, her portrayal makes me believe, Gontscharow had some understanding of women's minds.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
To keep our faces toward change and behave like free spirits
in the presence of fate is strength undefeatable.”
Helen Keller
Of course woman are all different- hey, I'm one too. What I mean is "Which male authors ignored stereotypes and presented a credible female character?"
I like the debate on gender. Gender is a collection of traits that society defines as being "masculine" or "feminine". Most people are a mixture of masculine and feminine traits, and it's interesting to see which characteristics are 'desirable' for men and which for women. It's not about trying to prove or disprove anything. Gender Studies has been rather sexist in the way that it focuses almost entirely on women and "female identity".
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