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Thread: Public Nudity

  1. #61
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I would rather see a 1000 lb naked man then dance clothed with people who think someone is disgusting naked. I think judging someones nudity is rude. I saw this picture of this lady who looked like a walking jacket, leather at that, and she was in a bikini. That makes her beautiful. Because she's true to herself enough to be who she is and not make special exceptions for people who have no business judging her (let alone on something as unimportant as looks, yeah I went there, as far as I'm concerned the idea of what is pretty, at least in the states, is pretty ugly).

    In reading this post I find myself nodding in agreement in recognizing a certain hypocrisy in these postings about public nudity. Many of the same people who took Alexander to task for his shallowness on the thread about fashion... exclaiming that judging someone by their looks... judging a book by its cover... is so pathetic, seem to be just as shallow in that they have no problem judging others bodies: old... ugly... fat... wrinkly... etc... This really seem to undermine the idea of not judging others according to appearance. Is it really that huge of a step from judging someone in a negative way because their body fails to meet the ideal of youth and sexual attractiveness to judging them because they are wearing the "wrong" clothes? Indeed... how far is it from this point to judging someone upon the basis of their skin color or racial features?
    Last edited by stlukesguild; 09-02-2011 at 09:20 PM.
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    This is a concept and something publicly censured and lift the curtain of publicity and see:

    Where is shame but in your eyes and concepts
    Your eyes want it, your heart wants to embrace it
    Your attitude is a problem and attitudes limit your altitudes

    Get out of the box of shame and all you eye is beauty. The nudity in you is something you stealthily want to expose and why you out of arrogance and nothing more than it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolte View Post
    I would rather see a 1000 lb naked man then dance clothed with people who think someone is disgusting naked. I think judging someones nudity is rude. I saw this picture of this lady who looked like a walking jacket, leather at that, and she was in a bikini. That makes her beautiful. Because she's true to herself enough to be who she is and not make special exceptions for people who have no business judging her (let alone on something as unimportant as looks, yeah I went there, as far as I'm concerned the idea of what is pretty, at least in the states, is pretty ugly).
    I would argue that. To be true to oneself is one thing and to understand how our behaviors affect others is another thing. I love beauty, and sorry to say, but I don't see anything beautiful in 1000 lb body........ no matter how she or he loves herself or himself. It has nothing to do with judging those who love being naked......They can still have their freedom and enjoy being naked....at home. Some people are more sensitive to surrounding beauty than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by osho View Post
    This is a concept and something publicly censured and lift the curtain of publicity and see:

    Where is shame but in your eyes and concepts
    Your eyes want it, your heart wants to embrace it
    Your attitude is a problem and attitudes limit your altitudes

    Get out of the box of shame and all you eye is beauty. The nudity in you is something you stealthily want to expose and why you out of arrogance and nothing more than it.
    osho, please stop pretending to know everyone. I really don't "stealthily want to expose" anything. Maybe you do, but I am thirteen, and I can tell you most people my age really do not have these stealthy wants.


    I agree with stlukes about hypocrisy – but it seems inevitable. We are told not to judge people by their looks, race, age, &c., and as Drkshadow said on another thread, most people do not admit their prejudices openly. 'On Fashion' was too direct maybe.

    I mainly mind nudity with the intention to show off. I don't care how beautiful the body is, the idea of advertising one's body appalls me ...

  5. #65
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    We all want to secretly see nudity and our social blankets and values censor them.

    And these social manners, mores are double standards.

    If you are really daring you like it
    You want to prove to your society that you decent but remove the layers of your mind your sense of decency, not your actual decency is under threats

  6. #66
    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    In reading this post I find myself nodding in agreement in recognizing a certain hypocrisy in these postings about public nudity. Many of the same people who took Alexander to task for his shallowness on the thread about fashion... exclaiming that judging someone by their looks... judging a book by its cover... is so pathetic, seem to be just as shallow in that they have no problem judging others bodies: old... ugly... fat... wrinkly... etc... This really seem to undermine the idea of not judging others according to appearance. Is it really that huge of a step from judging someone in a negative way because their body fails to meet the ideal of youth and sexual attractiveness to judging them because they are wearing the "wrong" clothes? Indeed... how far is it from this point to judging someone upon the basis of their skin color or racial features?
    Are they the same people, because Emil seemed generally in agreement with Alex in the fashion thread.

    I don't really mind nudity, even with the elderly. We all have preferences, but I don't think I've ever felt revulsion at the appearance of another person. Except, perhaps, images of the starving, sick or injured.

    Even sexually, I do not really value appearances that much relative to personality, there are certain appeals to rounder flesh.

    (Edit: And really, I think there is a difference between insisting that a person is ugly, beautiful, or sexually alluring and speaking of what one prefers personally.
    Last edited by OrphanPip; 09-02-2011 at 09:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cl154576 View Post
    osho, please stop pretending to know everyone. I really don't "stealthily want to expose" anything. Maybe you do, but I am thirteen, and I can tell you most people my age really do not have these stealthy wants.


    I agree with stlukes about hypocrisy – but it seems inevitable. We are told not to judge people by their looks, race, age, &c., and as Drkshadow said on another thread, most people do not admit their prejudices openly. 'On Fashion' was too direct maybe.

    I mainly mind nudity with the intention to show off. I don't care how beautiful the body is, the idea of advertising one's body appalls me ...
    I apologize for all this and I have never the intent to direct at you and I will withdraw my abuse if it has hurt you. I want to treasure your personal values and sense of decorum. This is my personal opinion. I like nudity for its sheer beauty and I have not judged it promiscuously and perversely.

    Your sense of nudity maybe different than mine and I do not say mine is better since to claim my view is better is sheer stupidity. I like the beauty of nudity par excellence
    Last edited by osho; 09-02-2011 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin View Post
    I adore your commentaries, Vonny.

    I think people are assuming that those of us opposed to public nudity have a hatred for ugly or fat people. That simply isn't true, though I do appreciate people who wash their hair more than people who don't. It's slobs I don't care for. If I can do the work I do, and juggle several responsibilities, and still look after my personal care and fitness, it seems reasonable to think that other people can and should if they are planning to go about nude in public.

    Thanks Varenne! After I write here I usually worry some. It's a strange, irrational fear I guess. I'll stick with this over time and see if I get over it. Sometimes I know my thinking is a bit distorted, so that adds to my self-consciousness - this happens especially when my mom is ill, like today.

    I'm fortunate I suppose that I'm able to structure my life so that I'm not really subjected to people who don't wash their hair, and things like that. I wouldn't want to be around people who don't wash, or people who gorge on junk food and swill soda, or smokers. As I write this about smokers, I know there are smokers here and I don't want to offend them, only I can't be around smokers.

    Being nude in public is another thing I hadn't thought much about before this thread. The disgusting man who drops his pants at the lake is the only person I've known in real life to do this.

    I had the opportunity to swim nude in a warm pool at night with my girl friend, and it was really great. We did it secretively. It's a memory I like to relive. Swimming nude feels very good! We didn't do it to be exhibitionists, and no one was around to see. I couldn't imagine walking around nude in front of people, other than my friend. But there's nothing in the world like swimming nude, skinny dipping, in warm water, especially at night.

  9. #69
    Card-carrying Medievalist Lokasenna's Avatar
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    For goodness sake... I'm amazed that I have to make a point this simple and obvious here, but I'll do so anyway:

    To make a comment on the aesthetic appeal of someone's naked body is ABSOLUTELY NOT the same thing as judging them as a person. There is no correlation whatsoever between beauty of appearance and generosity or warmth of spirit. To say that someone is unattractive physically (particularly if naked) is not to say that they are somehow an inferior person! God knows, I'm no looker - when people evaluate me, I hope they do so on the grounds of my better, more personal qualities.

    Secondly, to all the people who are slamming those of us who dare to make a judgement on beauty: are you seriously saying that all naked bodies are beautiful? Are we that homogenous as a species? Surely we have the ability and intellect to make aesthetic judgements for ourselves, based on our subjective opinion? Not everyone finds the naked form beautiful - to be quite honest, in 99/100 cases I find the human body fairly off-putting; that might just be me, but don't be so sanctimonious as to say that it is wrong of me to hold an opinion on the subjectivity of aesthetic appeal! It is simultaneously naïve and sinister.
    Last edited by Lokasenna; 09-03-2011 at 04:52 AM.
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    You explained that point very well, Lokasenna.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
    God knows, I'm no looker - when people evaluate me, I hope they do so on the grounds of my better, more personal qualities.
    But, come on, you do have some distortions in your thinking, and other people have a right to their subjective opinions. You know, there is a whole person.

    (I know I shouldn't do this. I know it, I know it.)
    Last edited by Vonny; 09-03-2011 at 04:38 AM.

  11. #71
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    And really, I think there is a difference between insisting that a person is ugly, beautiful, or sexually alluring and speaking of what one prefers personally.

    Orphan Pip... I'm not questioning the fact that we all make judgments based upon appearances. I'm a visual artist, after all... that's the name of the game. All I intended was to play the devil's advocate for a bit and point out that there is a certain inconsistency between the comments concerning Alexander's "shallowness" for daring to admit that he finds appearances important with regard to fashion and the blatantly judgmental comments concerning the appearances of the naked body.
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    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    For goodness sake... I'm amazed that I have to make a point this simple and obvious here, but I'll do so anyway:

    To make a comment on the aesthetic appeal of someone's naked body is ABSOLUTELY NOT the same thing as judging them as a person. There is no correlation whatsoever between beauty of appearance and generosity or warmth of spirit. To say that someone is unattractive physically (particularly if naked) is not to say that they are somehow an inferior person! God knows, I'm no looker - when people evaluate me, I hope they do so on the grounds of my better, more personal qualities.


    Lokasenna... perhaps judging a person based upon the appearance of their body is not the same as judging them as a whole person... but it certainly remains a form of judgment based upon appearances... which a good many here... in response to Alexander's "Fashion" thread portrayed as being horribly shallow and something they were above. I will point out that there were comments made in this thread that suggest assumptions being made based upon appearances. Between this thread and that on fashion there have been assumptions made as to the appearances of those who are overweight suggesting laziness etc... when as we all know obesity can be linked to diabetes and other diseases, heredity, even poverty... or the sort of poverty of the wealthiest nations. Many of the children I teach in the poor urban neighborhoods of the US are obese for the simple reason that healthier diets that include more fresh vegetables and fruit are more expensive than the pre-packaged foods, cheaper meats and dairy products. Physical Education (like art and music) is often one of the first thing slashed when the budget needs to be trimmed, and many of the parents lack the education to recognize that it isn't the greatest thing for a child to sit in front of the computer or the TV all day. Off course, in many cases it isn't safe for them to go outside either. I spent hours everyday as a child wandering through the forest behind our home, picking blackberries, hunting for snakes and tadpoles... I played ball with other kids in the neighborhood nearly everyday... but there was never the fear of gangs, drive-by shootings, prostitutes, drug dealers, crack-heads, and the all the rest of that which confronts the kids in urban America.

    Again... I was playing something of the devil's advocate in my comment because I fully realize that we all make judgments and assumptions based upon appearances... it is the very name of the game for me as an artist. We should even admit that while personality, intelligence, and other abilities and personal traits may ultimately be more important when it comes to our overall opinion of another individual we are not likely to become attracted sexually to a person that we find unattractive or ugly.
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  13. #73
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I had the fortune of Seeing the David live, and it blew my mind. For when it comes to the male body I look upon it undhindered by lust, and in it I find something far more delicate and beautiful than that of the female body. I don't know why, but I do.

    Alex... you are seriously in need of therapy.

    Seriously... the issue of public nudity is quite relevant when it comes to the visual arts. Vonny spoke of "the disgusting "art" that appears on the forum" and while I agree that some art can be challenging... disturbing... even "disgusting" the question always comes down to who is making these judgments. What is "beautiful" to one person can be "disgusting" to another... especially, it seems, when it comes to nudity in art... at least in the US.

    There is a well-known essay by Mark Twain concerning Titian's famous Venus d'Urbino:

    You enter [the Uffizi] and proceed to that most-visited little gallery that exists in the world --the Tribune-- and there, against the wall, without obstructing rap or leaf, you may look your fill upon the foulest, the vilest, the obscenest picture the world possesses -- Titian's Venus. It isn't that she is naked and stretched out on a bed --no, it is the attitude of one of her arms and hand. If I ventured to describe that attitude there would be a fine howl --but there the Venus lies for anybody to gloat over that wants to --and there she has a right to lie, for she is a work of art, and art has its privileges. I saw a young girl stealing furtive glances at her; I saw young men gazing long and absorbedly at her, I saw aged infirm men hang upon her charms with a pathetic interest. How I should like to describe her --just to see what a holy indignation I could stir up in the world...yet the world is willing to let its sons and its daughters and itself look at Titian's beast, but won't stand a description of it in words....There are pictures of nude women which suggest no impure thought -- I am well aware of that. I am not railing at such. What I am trying to emphasize is the fact that Titian's Venus is very far from being one of that sort. Without any question it was painted for a bagnio and it was probably refused because it was a trifle too strong. In truth, it is a trifle too strong for any place but a public art gallery.



    It would seem that such Puritanism still remains a part of American culture... in spite of the growth of pornography. Indeed... considering figures such as Jerry Falwell, it seems that this Puritanism is something of a bizarre for of hypocrisy in which certain "holier-than-thou" individuals would dictate sexual morals to others which they feel free to dispense with themselves. The Attorney General, John Ashcroft, famously covered the figure of Justice (how sybolic) with blue curtains rather than allow himself to be photographed before a Neo-Classical figure with a bared breast. As Varene stated earlier, extreme violence in films is afforded less censorship that nudity. Someone noted a while back that you can blow up a breast in the movies with impunity, but don't even think about showing someone caressing a breast without facing that possible NC-17 rating. Around the time of Ashcroft's great breast cover-up there were discussions about the possibility of Michelangelo's David traveling to the US for exhibition at the National Gallery. The discussions never amounted to anything... no doubt in part owing to Ashcroft's public statement that if the David did enter the US it would need to be appropriately fitted with a fig leaf or loin cloth.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonny View Post

    I had the opportunity to swim nude in a warm pool at night with my girl friend, and it was really great. We did it secretively. It's a memory I like to relive. Swimming nude feels very good! We didn't do it to be exhibitionists, and no one was around to see. I couldn't imagine walking around nude in front of people, other than my friend. But there's nothing in the world like swimming nude, skinny dipping, in warm water, especially at night.
    Swimming naked feels very good! No…...it feels fantastic! I love swimming naked. I have a group of female friends who love hiking and swimming naked. After a quite intense hiking and sweating what a joy is to take clothing off and dive into a warm lake naked. All of us love it. I haven’t done it for a couple of years and I miss it.

  15. #75
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Vonny View Post

    I had the opportunity to swim nude in a warm pool at night with my girl friend, and it was really great. We did it secretively. It's a memory I like to relive. Swimming nude feels very good! We didn't do it to be exhibitionists, and no one was around to see. I couldn't imagine walking around nude in front of people, other than my friend. But there's nothing in the world like swimming nude, skinny dipping, in warm water, especially at night.
    Swimming naked feels very good! No…...it feels fantastic! I love swimming naked. I have a group of female friends who love hiking and swimming naked. After a quite intense hiking and sweating what a joy is to take clothing off and dive into a warm lake naked. All of us love it. I haven’t done it for a couple of years and I miss it.
    Another naked swimmer! I've never swam naked, well as I've not really had the opportunity, but it does sound pretty good. I'm missing out on something here.

    A teacher friend of mine once told me that he had took a group of boys mountain biking during the summer, as he regularly does, and that he also sometimes takes them skinny dipping in a lake.

    "Jesus" I told him "you can't do that, you'll get arrested".

    "Oh, we're not hurting anything" he says, "all these silly PC rules..."

    Quality.
    Last edited by LitNetIsGreat; 09-03-2011 at 04:58 PM.

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