Why does a good God promote suffering?

[Darcy88]

Wow, some great discussion going on here. The question of good and evil and suffering in relation to God will never be answered I don't think. You will always have believers and non-believers staring each other down from opposite sides of the philosophical fence. I myself am immensely conflicted on this issue. Right now I fancy myself a deist. I think God created everything and then just let creation go on ticking like a watch. I think He in fact can be blamed for suffering, but humans must bear much of the blame as well. Things like blame and good and evil all actually seem somewhat nonsensical to me. I suppose my thoughts on the matter have a somewhat Nietzschean flavour. Blaming God or blaming a person for evil seems to me to be as ridiculous as blaming a tree for being green. But we are human, imperfectly evolved/created things, and so we hate and blame and project upon nature things that really only exist in our own minds. We mythologize.

Anyway. Just my two cents on the matter.

[cafolini]

Wow, some great discussion going on here. The question of good and evil and suffering in relation to God will never be answered I don't think. You will always have believers and non-believers staring each other down from opposite sides of the philosophical fence. I myself am immensely conflicted on this issue. Right now I fancy myself a deist. I think God created everything and then just let creation go on ticking like a watch. I think He in fact can be blamed for suffering, but humans must bear much of the blame as well. Things like blame and good and evil all actually seem somewhat nonsensical to me. I suppose my thoughts on the matter have a somewhat Nietzschean flavour. Blaming God or blaming a person for evil seems to me to be as ridiculous as blaming a tree for being green. But we are human, imperfectly evolved/created things, and so we hate and blame and project upon nature things that really only exist in our own minds. We mythologize.

Anyway. Just my two cents on the matter.

Many good points. And if we are going to speak about evil in the context of creation, we cannot assume that it is only our exclusive doing. Death is guaranteed 100%. We cannot hide our suffering in the postulation of an afterlife. At most, that must remain a belief and it is not the foundation of faith at which we cannot arrive so easily. "Nobody comes to the Father except through me."

[Paulclem]

It seems that the existence of suffering is being used to try to disprove the existence of a good God. The existence of suffering allows two important things to happen in the universe. First, it allows freedom for creatures to make mistakes. Second, it allows for change to occur. The first allows for evil and the second allows for evolution to occur.

Although compassion would encourage one to reduce suffering, the existence of suffering itself is good. Without it there would be no freedom. Without it there would be no change.

EDIT: So an answer to the question why does a good God allow suffering is because suffering allows us to have freedom, allows change to occur and motivates our compassion. An atheistic position that finds suffering a problem is challenged to find a way to make sense out of suffering without leading to an ethical conclusion like that expressed in Melancholia. If it ever reached such a negative conclusion all the atheistic ethics would have done was provide a contradiction of its own worldview.

It is the postulation of a good, personal, omnipotent God who created the universe. If everything comes from God, then how does this resonate with the good and omnipotent? I've heard the argument that life is meant to develop a person, the heaviest load is given to those with the broadest shoulders etc etc, but these are idealistic suggestions. You don't have to look far to find people destroyed by their load, and who are born into such circumstances where all they know is suffering and they have nom opportiunity to develop and improve themselves. It just doesn't make sense.

So an answer to the question why does a good God allow suffering is because suffering allows us to have freedom

Who has the most freedom to think, write, reflect, generate ideas? Not the people with the most extreme suffering that's for sure. I think that statement comes from a place where we have the luxury of a little suffering. Would you be able to say that to a person who is a famine victim, or who has lost their family in a war, or suffered through natural disasters or any of the many sufferings that afflict humans?

[cafolini]

It is the postulation of a good, personal, omnipotent God who created the universe. If everything comes from God, then how does this resonate with the good and omnipotent? I've heard the argument that life is meant to develop a person, the heaviest load is given to those with the broadest shoulders etc etc, but these are idealistic suggestions. You don't have to look far to find people destroyed by their load, and who are born into such circumstances where all they know is suffering and they have nom opportiunity to develop and improve themselves. It just doesn't make sense.

So an answer to the question why does a good God allow suffering is because suffering allows us to have freedom

Who has the most freedom to think, write, reflect, generate ideas? Not the people with the most extreme suffering that's for sure. I think that statement comes from a place where we have the luxury of a little suffering. Would you be able to say that to a person who is a famine victim, or who has lost their family in a war, or suffered through natural disasters or any of the many sufferings that afflict humans?

I agree. The purpose of suffering, if it is to be viewed as a production of God, cannot be freedom. Freedom is a human aspiration that can only be achieved by men in a relative sense. Of course a God may be viewed as allowing suffering. That has little to do with producing freedom. If a God does not allow suffering, there would be no moral considerations. Men wouldn't have any ability to judge their actions.

[Darcy88]

In moments of despair I am a deist. In moments of happiness or evenness I am theologically quite Catholic. I am the latter about 80 percent of the time. I believe in purgatory. I don't care if there is no biblical basis for it. It makes a lot of sense to me. Dante is as much a theologian as Augustine to me.

[cafolini]

In moments of despair I am a deist. In moments of happiness or evenness I am theologically quite Catholic. I am the latter about 80 percent of the time. I believe in purgatory. I don't care if there is no biblical basis for it. It makes a lot of sense to me. Dante is as much a theologian as Augustine to me.

Usually, Dante is not as funny as Agustine, but it suffices. Another one that babblesup serious jokes is Aquinas.

[utopianchrist]

Suffering is a means to cleanse the germs and the evil seed through of which our body is made. Even Christ chose suffering to cleanse the evil deeds of mankind. besides it remind us that there is a supreme force who is above us all, and thus leads us to live a disciplined life with respect for supreme being.

[cafolini]

Suffering is a means to cleanse the germs and the evil seed through of which our body is made. Even Christ chose suffering to cleanse the evil deeds of mankind. besides it remind us that there is a supreme force who is above us all, and thus leads us to live a disciplined life with respect for supreme being.

I think in its better meaning, suffering is a means of paying for being stupid and refusing to learn what each day brings about

Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid. ~ John Wayne

Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday. ~ John Wayne

Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. ~ John Wayne

[ZTay]

From what I've learned from the Bible it's so that man might know his measure; and give due respect and reverence to God. Even in suffering we call God superfluous: how much more so might we in uninterrupted prosperity?

[russellb]

Suffering is a means to cleanse the germs and the evil seed through of which our body is made. Even Christ chose suffering to cleanse the evil deeds of mankind. besides it remind us that there is a supreme force who is above us all, and thus leads us to live a disciplined life with respect for supreme being.

Suffering does not cleanse. That's a big romanticized mistake. Nietszche said famously, "What does not kill me makes me stronger." Actually, it can make you weaker. It would appear that God did not intend suffering. That is unless he intended Adam and Eve to disobey Him in Eden. In this sense suffering is a contingent fact of human life, not an essential one. Would we suggest that in its initial absence Adam and Eve were unable to respect God, having no basis to acquire a disciplined life, and that nor will this be possible in heaven when suffering is no more?

[YesNo]

Suffering does not cleanse. That's a big romanticized mistake. Nietszche said famously, "What does not kill me makes me stronger." Actually, it can make you weaker. It would appear that God did not intend suffering. That is unless he intended Adam and Eve to disobey Him in Eden. In this sense suffering is a contingent fact of human life, not an essential one. Would we suggest that in its initial absence Adam and Eve were unable to respect God, having no basis to acquire a disciplined life, and that nor will this be possible in heaven when suffering is no more?

How do you know that God did not intend suffering and that it is not a good thing? By "God" I mean that superhuman agent who created the universe which we know, from 21st century science, had a beginning 13.73 billion years ago.

Adam and Eve are characters from Genesis. One aspect of their behavior in these stories is that they had free will. They could disobey. They could make mistakes. The resulting suffering is a very useful way to help those who make mistakes to not repeat those mistakes in the future.

[russellb]

How do you know that God did not intend suffering and that it is not a good thing? By "God" I mean that superhuman agent who created the universe which we know, from 21st century science, had a beginning 13.73 billion years ago.

Adam and Eve are characters from Genesis. One aspect of their behavior in these stories is that they had free will. They could disobey. They could make mistakes. The resulting suffering is a very useful way to help those who make mistakes to not repeat those mistakes in the future.

I do not know that God did not intend suffering, but life has taught me it's not a good thing. Ask someone with 'locked in' syndrome. Call me a naive utilitarian but I would have thought that the 'good' was located in happiness rather than suffering. This Nietszchean 'no pain no gain' thing is all very well but there is so much suffering that implies no gain... only pain. What's to be gained from chronic depression? And by the way what on earth has such a thing got to do with not repeating mistakes as you say.

Well you know i was kind of assuming for the sake of theological discussion that Genesis can be taken seriously. I stand by what I say about suffering being contingent rather than essential. This is in fact premised on Adam and Eve having free will although nowhere in the bible is the term actually used. There is something of a paradox in the story of the fall. If Adam and Eve were created morally perfect... in the image of God... how would they have been capable of the sin of disobedience. Freewill or no. Its rather like saying God with His perfect nature is capable of sin which, of course, would be a heresy.

The importance of the Genesis myth for Christians I think is that it accounts for the origin of evil (and therefore suffering) without, at least apparently, making God responsible for that evil. If God did actually intend and create evil (and therefore suffering) I would say that this is difficult to reconcile with the idea of a morally perfect God

[cafolini]

Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. ~ John Wayne

[russellb]

[QUOTE=cafolini;1162079]Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid. ~ John Wayne[/QUOT

It depends what you mean by stupid i suppose. Someone who lacks common sense or good judgement may make life tougher on themselves. But then maybe a simple village idiot can have a simple village life. My experience of schooling in the United kingdom teaches me in fact that stupidity has great advantages. Being racist misogynist and homophobic can be wonderful ways of winning friends and influencing people. Stupidity is adaptive in an environment of stupid people. But then is adaption not an indicator of... intelligence? perhaps someone invented a word without creating a strict definition... which leaves me feeling stupid thinking about it. But if i didn't feel stupid i d be arrogant? Which would make me stupid. Right?

[cafolini]

Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway.
John Wayne

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Get off your horse and drink your milk.
John Wayne

I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves.
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If you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow.
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Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid.
John Wayne

Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.
John Wayne

Talk low, talk slow and don't say too much.
John Wayne

Tomorrow hopes we have learned something from yesterday.
John Wayne