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Thread: Why does a good God promote suffering?

  1. #331
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamCrackers View Post
    There is this ball of dirt that goes around a star. These apes are born on this ball of dirt. I am one of those apes. It is this day of this year in the internet age. My DNA has battled for countless generations to give rise to me. No other ape was born here that is more human than me. I am self aware. I see the world for what it is. Example: let's say you had the psychic power to influence gambling dice by 1%. The issue is that your effect is so small, that no one really cares. There is a chance an escaped zoo elephant will trample me or an airplane will fall out of the sky on me. It is unlikely, so I run the little nothing risks of life. If you were to cast a voodoo spell, a Jesus chant, beat a drum, point an evil finger, those all go in the trashcan of risks too small to care about. I don't care if spiritualism is real; it is too impotent to effect any real chance I need concern myself about. I don't believe the human apes change. Once the biology of puberty has set in, a human ape stays fixed in their general behavior. I could no more talk you into admitting you were wrong than I could talk you into shooting lasers from your eyes. It will never happen. Everything is because it must be. Cause and effect is not everything. It is about 90%+ though, so cause and effect makes the world go round. We were born, we will live, we will die. Some will be remembered and some forgotten. You had a life to live in this world. If you neglected real life for your religion or spiritualism, I find that morally identical to you saying you spend your life on World of Warcraft or Online Blackjack. Don't get so wrapped up in the social conformity of others apes on this ball of dirt. I am the one self aware. No such ape in a costume exists to answer my questions. I grew up.
    Come back in ten years and have a look at this. See how much you've changed then.

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by blithe spirit View Post
    God doesn't promote suffering but he does allow it.
    Destroying every firstborn in the land of Egypt on one night was just 'allowing' suffering to occur?

  3. #333
    rat in a strange garret Whifflingpin's Avatar
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    "What is God's relationship to a world in which suffering and evil occur, bad things happen to good people, and there is no clear explanation of why. Is this because it is a matter of faith, and therefore unexplainable to someone without such faith or belief, or is it that the matter is unclear to Christians?"

    The causes of such a world may not be clear to Christians, but God's relationship with it is very clear. To Christians, God entered into that world and freely experienced its bad things inflicted on Himself, the only person who might truly be called "good." God's relationship with the world is, to Christians, that of a fellow sufferer.

    That is one bit that is clear. Working out why evil occurs in the first place, and how it affects God's omnipotence are fairly trivial considerations compared with the knowledge that God is inside creation, not a mere disinterested onlooker.

    The other bit that is a certainty to Christians is that God is the victor over evil. Evil may have to be suffered, but God does not 'tolerate' it, He opposes it and it is goodness that is the foundation and fulfilment of the universe, not evil.
    Last edited by Whifflingpin; 04-18-2012 at 03:43 AM.
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  4. #334
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    I think this is the best answer I've read on this topic Whiffling.

  5. #335
    Not politically correct Pendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usman.khawar View Post
    the arguement i posted , and the book explained, it, is not the same which u told me . simply u didn't read that or miss to read.

    further, if i talk about the argument which u mentioned.. is good, for atheist, what a beautiful evolution, billions of lives, so balanced so perfect system of earth and cosmos. whats a beautiful accident
    Your quote:

    O' My Lord! give us the knowledge of reality of the things. Amen.


    Which is, as I said, the universe being built on design, there must be a designer, to me, that is God, and that knowledge is reality.

    The person who cannot accept the existence of a supreme being, their reality and knowledge dictates chance and evolution, to them, viable truth.

    Perhaps we should all cling to our own belief system, and if others disagree, let them, and let us live in peace.

    Si quis autem ignorat, ignorabitur.

    God bless you richly,

    Pen
    Some of us laugh
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  6. #336
    The universe is not a design. The universe is a pattern. A pattern is a lot like a design in many ways. We could call it the hydrogen cycle. The simplest and most abundant element in the universe forms clouds, gravity, stars, planets, life, and it does it everywhere for a long time. If you went to whole new galaxy, which is way far away, you would find there what you had here, more hydrogen, stars, planets, and life. Does there have to be a designer? No. It is a mathematical formula, a fractal, this Fibonacci rotating electromagnetic pattern from small to big.

    Most importantly however is two issues: 1) Creationism is called being Jewish. It is the Hebrew Rabbi Torah Creation Myth. 2) It has no moral implications. "What is the moral of this story?" It has none. The giant sad truth is, it really doesn't matter how life started on Earth. Maybe it was Panspermia. Maybe aliens put it here. It really doesn't matter. It won't change any decisions in our days. Their is no moral virtue to the Jewish Creation Myth because it contributes nothing. We are a science species now. Human will be a science species for the next 10-50 thousand years at least. Pick a better battle. Hydrogen built all this. I don't worship a hydrogen statue.

  7. #337
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Lots of thought provoking ideas here. I'll just multi quote a few messages and post my thoughts to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamCrackers
    If I had another life, I would like to be mute, live in some wild place, and be a farmer. I would not need a team or a reason to grow my plants and raise my animals. I would do it because it was life, being alive, and making more life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem
    This sounds very idealistic and unattainable. To be human is to socialise and engage with others. It is said that we can't survive without others, and from a merely practial/ medical sense it is very easy to see why, let alone the fulfillment of social and emotional needs.
    Which part, the being alone? It's actually very reminiscent of Thoreau, Alan Watts, and Milarepa to me. Thoreau as he lived alone; Alan Watts in reference to the spontaneity of it; and Milarepa as he said the absolute best thing you can do is live alone in a cave on a mountain where it always snows. Next best is to wander nomadically, unattached, and next to live on the outskirts in a hermitage hut (rough paraphrase).

    Idealism and realism or practicality aren't opposites, they're actually rather meaningless at a certain point.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamCrackers
    People don't think to master lessons. A completed Christian or Buddhist would be neither. A person filled with love and goodness would not seek God. Why? Obviously, they never will stop to ask why. If you love, you won't stop if you knew God was not real. The NEED for God comes from lack of love.
    Paul as Buddhist disagrees but I as a Buddhist agree. Pointedly, Buddhist logic allows for two seemingly contradicting points to exist truly. (It both is and is not; it neither is nor is not.) Throughout Buddhism eeeverywhere and all kinds of other philosophical or spiritual writings it's understood: Once you get to a certain level, you're no longer trying, you're no longer seeking. It's one of the important building blocks of a sane view of life. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem
    Love and godness are unfortunately not things that arise in completion in humans. It takes development.

    I can't really speak for Christians, but a Buddhist needs to progress along the path to become a better person embodying love and compassion. The teachings form part of this. If such positive traits were a naturally occurring phenomena, then there would be no need for the teachings, but clearly, like every phase of history, love and compassion are all too often lacking in societies.
    Love and compassion are natural, and I believe every master (Buddhist or any) that I would respect at all would say the same. These are the natural qualities; after all, isn't it our basic nature? To say anything else is more natural is sacrilege (to say the opposite qualities are more natural). What is more natural than love? Love and kindness heal, love and kindness create, they are everything good and natural. They are absolutely natural, and they're the best that is in us. They're everything.

    Likewise - the enlightening Dharma is natural, the enlightened Buddha is natural, and the student is natural. I was listening to a Dharma talk of Thay, and I remember him saying - the Dharma is lovely in the beginning, in the middle, and in the end. In other words, in the very beginning of practice, the experience is beautiful. In the middle it is, and the end is as well.

    Pain occurs, but it is natural to learn to avoid it. Vivekananda said, the goal of life is happiness; the bright understand this quickly, the unintelligent, a little more slowly.

    For the record, Buddhist teaching doesn't say that love and compassion are lacking; if you immerse yourself in Buddhism you will see absolutely countless cases where it's indicated the Buddha's teaching taught that every moment is complete, whole, lacking nothing, and that we are, as ourselves, complete, whole, and lacking nothing. The very core of Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment was that love and goodness do arise in completion in humans, and they arise as soon as we awaken to our Buddha nature - our real nature, which is. . . if I may say so without avoiding circular logic or over-repetition, natural.

    The path is difficult for some, it is true, but its essence is not complicated: "Do good, do not do evil, and cultivate the mind."

    It is an infinite process, yes, and one of the keys involved is to return to step one; return to the here, and the now - observe. One of the most powerful methods is to become absorbed in the question, "Who am I?" When a thought occurs, "To whom is it occurring?"

    There are certain predicates to practice.. master Bassui, as well as Ramana Maharshi (not Buddhist... ) taught questioning as the way, taught this koan, "Who am I?"

  8. #338
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    Which part, the being alone? It's actually very reminiscent of Thoreau, Alan Watts, and Milarepa to me. Thoreau as he lived alone; Alan Watts in reference to the spontaneity of it; and Milarepa as he said the absolute best thing you can do is live alone in a cave on a mountain where it always snows. Next best is to wander nomadically, unattached, and next to live on the outskirts in a hermitage hut (rough paraphrase).

    Idealism and realism or practicality aren't opposites, they're actually rather meaningless at a certain point.



    Paul as Buddhist disagrees but I as a Buddhist agree. Pointedly, Buddhist logic allows for two seemingly contradicting points to exist truly. (It both is and is not; it neither is nor is not.) Throughout Buddhism eeeverywhere and all kinds of other philosophical or spiritual writings it's understood: Once you get to a certain level, you're no longer trying, you're no longer seeking. It's one of the important building blocks of a sane view of life. . .



    Love and compassion are natural, and I believe every master (Buddhist or any) that I would respect at all would say the same. These are the natural qualities; after all, isn't it our basic nature? To say anything else is more natural is sacrilege (to say the opposite qualities are more natural). What is more natural than love? Love and kindness heal, love and kindness create, they are everything good and natural. They are absolutely natural, and they're the best that is in us. They're everything.

    Likewise - the enlightening Dharma is natural, the enlightened Buddha is natural, and the student is natural. I was listening to a Dharma talk of Thay, and I remember him saying - the Dharma is lovely in the beginning, in the middle, and in the end. In other words, in the very beginning of practice, the experience is beautiful. In the middle it is, and the end is as well.

    Pain occurs, but it is natural to learn to avoid it. Vivekananda said, the goal of life is happiness; the bright understand this quickly, the unintelligent, a little more slowly.

    For the record, Buddhist teaching doesn't say that love and compassion are lacking; if you immerse yourself in Buddhism you will see absolutely countless cases where it's indicated the Buddha's teaching taught that every moment is complete, whole, lacking nothing, and that we are, as ourselves, complete, whole, and lacking nothing. The very core of Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment was that love and goodness do arise in completion in humans, and they arise as soon as we awaken to our Buddha nature - our real nature, which is. . . if I may say so without avoiding circular logic or over-repetition, natural.

    The path is difficult for some, it is true, but its essence is not complicated: "Do good, do not do evil, and cultivate the mind."

    It is an infinite process, yes, and one of the keys involved is to return to step one; return to the here, and the now - observe. One of the most powerful methods is to become absorbed in the question, "Who am I?" When a thought occurs, "To whom is it occurring?"

    There are certain predicates to practice.. master Bassui, as well as Ramana Maharshi (not Buddhist... ) taught questioning as the way, taught this koan, "Who am I?"
    I'd like to respond to this Nik. Shall we start a new thread rather than hijack this one?

  9. #339
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamCrackers View Post
    The universe is not a design. The universe is a pattern. A pattern is a lot like a design in many ways. We could call it the hydrogen cycle. The simplest and most abundant element in the universe forms clouds, gravity, stars, planets, life, and it does it everywhere for a long time. If you went to whole new galaxy, which is way far away, you would find there what you had here, more hydrogen, stars, planets, and life. Does there have to be a designer? No. It is a mathematical formula, a fractal, this Fibonacci rotating electromagnetic pattern from small to big.

    Most importantly however is two issues: 1) Creationism is called being Jewish. It is the Hebrew Rabbi Torah Creation Myth. 2) It has no moral implications. "What is the moral of this story?" It has none. The giant sad truth is, it really doesn't matter how life started on Earth. Maybe it was Panspermia. Maybe aliens put it here. It really doesn't matter. It won't change any decisions in our days. Their is no moral virtue to the Jewish Creation Myth because it contributes nothing. We are a science species now. Human will be a science species for the next 10-50 thousand years at least. Pick a better battle. Hydrogen built all this. I don't worship a hydrogen statue.
    This may be yours and many people's views, but you live in a world where a significant number of people think otherwise. it would be a mistake to think that their views don't matter considering that there are many millions of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and others. In that sense, whatever the truth of it, it does matter, and it matters to you and me too.

    In coming years, though science is in the ascendancy, there is absolutely no guarrantee in the long run that science won't decline. I can't see it, but then who would have predicted the decline of Christianity in the West 100 years ago? Whatever - the views of millions do matter and will continue to affect us.

  10. #340
    ShadowsCool ShadowsCool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whifflingpin View Post
    "What is God's relationship to a world in which suffering and evil occur, bad things happen to good people, and there is no clear explanation of why. Is this because it is a matter of faith, and therefore unexplainable to someone without such faith or belief, or is it that the matter is unclear to Christians?"

    The causes of such a world may not be clear to Christians, but God's relationship with it is very clear. To Christians, God entered into that world and freely experienced its bad things inflicted on Himself, the only person who might truly be called "good." God's relationship with the world is, to Christians, that of a fellow sufferer.

    That is one bit that is clear. Working out why evil occurs in the first place, and how it affects God's omnipotence are fairly trivial considerations compared with the knowledge that God is inside creation, not a mere disinterested onlooker.

    The other bit that is a certainty to Christians is that God is the victor over evil. Evil may have to be suffered, but God does not 'tolerate' it, He opposes it and it is goodness that is the foundation and fulfilment of the universe, not evil.
    I agree totally
    shad·ow ing

  11. #341
    ShadowsCool ShadowsCool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamCrackers View Post

    Most importantly however is two issues: 1) Creationism is called being Jewish. It is the Hebrew Rabbi Torah Creation Myth. n statue.
    I marvel at how certain you are that God is a myth. As if you've studied life and came to your own conclusions.
    shad·ow ing

  12. #342
    Creationism doesn't exist anyway.
    100% of the Creationists I ever met, were in a religion of 'Bible perfect Truth Judaism' and oh yeah, we sort of care about Jesus.
    The creationist wants the bible to be true. The obvious problem is the Genesis is a fable. We know more than enough science to DARE! yes we dare the undarable, we disregard the rantings of the Hebrew witch doctor that the Earth is young.

  13. #343
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamCrackers View Post
    Creationism doesn't exist anyway.
    100% of the Creationists I ever met, were in a religion of 'Bible perfect Truth Judaism' and oh yeah, we sort of care about Jesus.
    The creationist wants the bible to be true. The obvious problem is the Genesis is a fable. We know more than enough science to DARE! yes we dare the undarable, we disregard the rantings of the Hebrew witch doctor that the Earth is young.
    If you want to read a bunch of rantings that should be disregarded, just go back and read your posts.
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  14. #344
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    I'd like to respond to this Nik. Shall we start a new thread rather than hijack this one?
    Yes, sure. I've just started one.

  15. #345
    Not politically correct Pendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamCrackers View Post
    Creationism doesn't exist anyway.
    100% of the Creationists I ever met, were in a religion of 'Bible perfect Truth Judaism' and oh yeah, we sort of care about Jesus.
    The creationist wants the bible to be true. The obvious problem is the Genesis is a fable. We know more than enough science to DARE! yes we dare the undarable, we disregard the rantings of the Hebrew witch doctor that the Earth is young.

    What you mean is, there are scientists that you have faith in who are more than willing to paint God out of the equation. I personally know people who are certain that a supreme being, or beings, created the Earth and all that is therein. They come from many persuasions, not only Christian-Judaism. The point is sooner or later you have to accept everything on faith, having never witnessed it. Scientists discover new things everyday that the large majority of people will never see, touch, taste, hear, or feel, but which the majority will find perfectly plausible because, after all, it is science. Others accept things that they also will never see, touch, taste, hear, or feel, because they believe in a supreme being or beings, and after all, that is God.

    God bless

    Pen
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    Some of us smoke
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    But it's all just the way
    that we cope with our lives...

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