There's no reason to believe that the universe is in any way supervised or overseen. Why don't you just become a deist? It sounds like you are headed that way.Originally Posted by Patrick_Bateman
There's no reason to believe that the universe is in any way supervised or overseen. Why don't you just become a deist? It sounds like you are headed that way.
Allow me a few words here. We will not always understand the whys of life whether or not we believe in God. Take me, for example.
I became an ordained Non-denominational preacher at age 20. For the next 16 years I preached anywhere I could get a pulpit, traveling as much as 14 to 16 hours one way to preach. I also served as Assistant Pastor of a church, and service director.
My reward seems to have be to have a complete emotional and mental breakdown that as of today has lasted over 17 years, 7 incarcerations in mental hospitals for up to a month at a time, dozen or so pills to take every day, totally unable to work, and the churches I served excommunicated me. Rough, isn't it?
I could choose to say God doesn't care and that I have been very poorly treated by a God I served faithfully, and turn my back. But you know, that will not cure my bipolar nor my depression. For good or ill, I'm stuck with something that can barely be controlled, let alone cured.
So this is what I choose for my legacy. I will never be perfect. People cast me out, not God. I want one thing to follow me when I pass from this life.
I want it said that ol' Pendragon never gave up! When they threw me out, I preached anywhere I could. I witnessed all the same as if nothing happened. Indeed, I probably witness more because it happened.
It isn't easy, and I often find myself asking why this happened. I'm not sure that I will ever understand. But I hold on. Easter to me is a promise that there is a better place than this. I'm 51, and definitely closer to death than birth. Why fold now? I'm going to hang on.
Whether or not you believe in God, or whatever you believe about whether or not He actually cares, allow my story to help you when times get rough, when diseases come that cannot be cured, when someone dies and you feel so alone.
"Having done all, to stand." Ephesians 6:3
God bless, one and all
Pendragon
Some of us laugh
Some of us cry
Some of us smoke
Some of us lie
But it's all just the way
that we cope with our lives...
I mean that the stories represent an idea. In the story you gave, the implication is that one needs wisdom to be able to perceive the full picture, and it is easy to act on partial information to the detriment of the situation.
The implication, or thought, behind this is that it is difficult for humans to know the ways of God and the reasons why things are as they are. The further implication of this is that it is futile to question God from a position of ignorence.
I hope this explains what I meant.
That must have been difficult for you. It is a credit to you that you come over as very balanced.
I am sorry, Pendragon. I know it must be very hard-my son has been in a state psych hospital ( a very good one ) for a year and a half. Before that, he was in and out of hospitals a total of 12 times or so. He is 22, and severely affected with mental illness and cognitive delays. It is a nasty illness, and all we can do as parents is advocate for him, love and support him. It's exhausting for us and for him.
Hello Pen
One of the most inspiring posts I have come across and, yes, you look very balanced in spite of all this.
I liked when you said- People outcast me, not God.
But then in such cases, perhaps the best way is to have least expectations from people in general.
What excite and intrigues me is- why you stick with God after this?
My guesses are
In your tough times, in your often hopeless conditions, something good also kept turning up that helped you in having faith i.e. God also cares in his own way
Or
Faith is something wired in your genes, an understanding that there has to be a God
Or
Is it, living life, believing in a God and an afterlife, is a better way of living.
OR
Is it something else.
It is said that God don’t give us hardships/pain, more than our capacity to endure the load.
You have a great resilience.
But ‘why bad things sometimes happen to good people’, is not very clear to me.
I guess we can not know the ways of God, as Usman.khawar has put forward through the story in his post 285 of this thread.
I also like the way you end your posts with, God Bless.
welcome back
you are right.. but one thing is for sure, whatever His way whatever He does, does for good.. this is also a special knowledge.
Rab e adkhilni Mudkhla Sidqnw wa akhrijni mukhraja sidkanw wja alni milla dunka Sultananasira!!
Why do I stick by God after all of this? Simple. He still sticks by me. I know many would question this, but consider: How many in my shape will ultimately commit suicide? Yet knowing He is with me keeps me from that path. That is enough, but He also does more, helping me deal with my condition. God bless you, one and all!
Some of us laugh
Some of us cry
Some of us smoke
Some of us lie
But it's all just the way
that we cope with our lives...
I was moved by your post.
I'm not a churchgoer but I have a conception of God as something that suffers with us. I think we should strive for an understanding of God that is more subtle than man-with-beard-pulling-the-world's-strings.
The material world has its own rules and excludes God all it can; we are part of the material world and have no choice but to accept the material world's decision to exclude God. We might not individually have excluded Him, but we bear our share of the collective guilt merely by virtue of being physical beings.
I've not had your experiences, but I've had some bad mental health episodes myself, and they certainly can make one question what the nature of God is, if there is one.
i think to reach at ur mentioned question , one has to solve the basic question 1st, is there any God ?
Rab e adkhilni Mudkhla Sidqnw wa akhrijni mukhraja sidkanw wja alni milla dunka Sultananasira!!
Heb.11
[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For the believer in God, God is very real, and no amount of nay-saying will make them doubt. Faith becomes the substance (something you can literally feel) and the evidence (proof) of the dreamed of and unseen God. That is my statement of belief.
For those who cannot see any proof of God, any empirical evidence, God doesn't exist because they simply cannot believe in something their mind tells them is impossible. For these people, many of whom I proudly call my friends, this would be their statement of belief.
I strongly suspect that even among believers, there are many concepts of who and what God actually is. Just as I am sure that there are many reasons among Atheists and Agnostics as to why they believe that God either doesn't or perhaps doesn't exist.
If something I say can show a person that God truly exists, I am glad. But don't hesitate to be my friend because we disagree. Mutual respect is the firm basis of any friendship.
God bless
Pen
Some of us laugh
Some of us cry
Some of us smoke
Some of us lie
But it's all just the way
that we cope with our lives...
The question is hogwash for there is no reason why God should promote suffering, for we are said to be God's offspring and no sane parents want their children to suffer.
We are kind of biblical fools and in point of fact we totally and unquestionably subscribe to everything scribbled in the Bible, and mostly literally.
Suffering is unavoidable and yet there is no reason God should promote it and if God really a benefactor who wants his people to live happily not sorrowfully. Mortification or self annihilation is a sin or something savagery and any God that is driving people toward suffering is the Devil in the guise of God
“Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””
“If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.
Thanks for responding, peace be upon you... yes you right mutual respect is the firm basis of friendship. agreed
i picked some points to discuss with u to move towards a point of agreed..
like as u refered "[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
how you show if u preach that God exist? if the evidence of things not seen..unseen God and unseen evidences.. can u elobrate some objective arguments to make it sense.
2. as u said about ur beleif .. "For the believer in God, God is very real, and no amount of nay-saying will make them doubt. Faith becomes the substance (something you can literally feel) and the evidence (proof) of the dreamed of and unseen God. That is my statement of belief."
"For the believer in God, God is very real" you know, this is the point m agreedand erst of it you said is nothing but a beautiful single pearl of a necklace.
so this statement needs more clarifications for those who will read this. like .. " For the beleiver in God, God is very real" there is no doubt this is absolutly true. but if one raise the question " what was the thing which made one beleiver ?
then you said " (something you can literally feel) "... what i know that we human cant capture the creator with these apparent senses. we feel air , we taste something with tongue, we see with eyes, all we got 5 senses which have limitations. one who knows about it will confirm this. so what do u think a common person can feel unlimited God with these limited senses ? can u we limitize a unlimited thing ? or is there anyother sense we have to refine to feel God?
what i know about empirical evidence. i always take it at stage 2. at stage one, there is always an argument and reason. almost everyone experiene empirical evidence atleast once in life but without having strong argument , time erase or something like put curtains on the memory and person forget the experience. you may be disagree on this so we'll discuss above..
God bless u too..
Last edited by usman.khawar; 04-10-2012 at 12:08 PM.
Rab e adkhilni Mudkhla Sidqnw wa akhrijni mukhraja sidkanw wja alni milla dunka Sultananasira!!
There is little objective argument that persons who do not believe will accept. For sake of argument, let us suppose that the purely theoretical particles science believes in truly exist. Unseen, untouchable, but reactions of their effect on other things leads to belief that they must exist. I believe that when I see a wicked man make a complete change at the alter, that is the effect of God on his life. I believe when someone recovers from an illness that is one-hundred percent fatal after prayer, that is God at work. I believe when I feel a presence with me, encouraging me in my blackest hour of my mental illness that it is God there with me.Thanks for responding, peace be upon you... yes you right mutual respect is the firm basis of friendship. agreed
i picked some points to discuss with u to move towards a point of agreed..
like as u referred "[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
how you show if u preach that God exist? if the evidence of things not seen..unseen God and unseen evidences.. can u elaborate some objective arguments to make it sense.
I don't believe God promotes suffering, but allows it to happen as a normal part of life.
Well, let's elaborate on that. I was raised in a very strict religious upbringing, not to put it bluntly, but my mom was a fanatic. I choose to reject church entirely. But there are things I have witnessed that no one else would believe, and I won't invite sarcastic responses by trying to explain. I didn't seek God, He sought me. I was saved at age 19 at the height of my drug taking, alcohol drinking, trouble making ways, and my wife to be was saved the same day. I started preaching at 22.2. as u said about ur beleif .. "For the believer in God, God is very real, and no amount of nay-saying will make them doubt. Faith becomes the substance (something you can literally feel) and the evidence (proof) of the dreamed of and unseen God. That is my statement of belief."
"For the believer in God, God is very real" you know, this is the point m agreed
so this statement needs more clarifications for those who will read this. like .. " For the believer in God, God is very real" there is no doubt this is absolutely true. but if one raise the question " what was the thing which made one believer ?
Please do not take this wrong, but it is like trying to explain color to a blind person, or sound to someone who is deaf. It is a feeling of peace when you are so down you want to die, a feeling of belonging when you have been cast out of churches, a feeling of love for others when you have no reason to grant them the feeling. It will make a person forget such things as grudges, perceived sin in someone else, hatred for others and love unconditionally. When I feel that, I know it isn't me, for being human I would desire revenge, I would refuse to associate with people, my hate would only grow and turn to violence, as it once did.
I feel it is difficult to gain empirical evidence on anything. As a man told me once, and he was a mathematician, not a Christian, or any other religion, "We are certain that 2+2=4, but proving it mathematically could be a real problem." Perhaps that is the way with God existing or not existing. For me to prove that He does would be very difficult. I am reliably informed that it is pretty much impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there are problems there as well.
I agree to disagree with people and remain friends. Such arguments only lead to hard feelings. When someone tells me that they disbelieve or doubt in the presence of God, I would like to persuade them that He is real, but I will accept their belief, and accept them as a good friend.
Hopefully I haven't rambled too much in this. God bless
Pen
Some of us laugh
Some of us cry
Some of us smoke
Some of us lie
But it's all just the way
that we cope with our lives...
this is nice argument of particles. i also in reply tell an athiest the same reply when he argued against God that we can not see God then i said so what we also cannot see air, protons, electrons of electericity. but still with this answer we need some more senses to prove unseen God. like today we know with some sophisticated machines about the particles. with the sense of touching we know air . but we cannot feel God through these senses. Further u said "I believe that when I see a wicked man make a complete change at the alter," i have seen many people or if i left aside my experiences, generally speaking what if a noble person before dying make a complete change as wicked? many people do good all life and before dying they think that by doing good we didnt get anything but suffering and so they changed the path..
you said "I believe when someone recovers from an illness that is one-hundred percent fatal after prayer" this is also not a prove of existence coz many healthy people suddenly caught by death due to some heartattacks, or accidents etc.. precisely these are individual experiences which do not prove the existence of God. so my question is still there. how u show or prove unseen God with unseen reasons or whether there should be some external objective reason. ??
Hundred percent agreed..
whatever u wrote is really apreciatable pen. but its personal feelings. we cant transfer our feelings to others no matter even if we say thousnds of words. my question was on ur statement, i m writing it again
you said " For the believer in God, God is very real" there is no doubt this is absolutely true. but if one raise the question " what was the thing which made one believer ? .. Further respected Pen , one can raise question on ur saying "it is like trying to explain color to a blind person, or sound to someone who is deaf". like God is not for all humans ?
one who know maths, its not difficult.
you are informed? you are infomred that it is pretty much impossible to prove that God exist? Pen did u really said that ? so is it mean that you never try to think about it or to prove it or to research from zero by yourself?
did u read the book i mentioned in the thread mysticism ? in which author proved the existence of the God with an externaly objective scientific reason.
in our conversation i dont think there is any hard feeling. when ur conversation is to learn more, about knowledge , then everyone try to set their feelings and emotions at a side. moreover my dear pen we have atleast one thing common for sure which is biggest one, that we both beleive in God. God of all universes. if i ask you how many God there are? i hope ur answer would be "One". isnt it? correct me if i m thinking wrong.
God bless you
Last edited by usman.khawar; 04-12-2012 at 07:47 AM.
Rab e adkhilni Mudkhla Sidqnw wa akhrijni mukhraja sidkanw wja alni milla dunka Sultananasira!!
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