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Thread: Why does a good God promote suffering?

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    The phrase is non-attachment not detatchment.

    Non-attachment means to not be negatively influenced by things, people, places. It does not mean - as detatchment implies - cutting off from.
    I've heard about that a million times in therapy ... Letting go of your emotions; "do you want to be right, or do you want to be effective?" ... Acknowledging the emotions, letting go of them; trying to "regulate" emotions, to ease their intensity and make them "tolerable" ...

    I believe we have emotions for a reason, other than that they serve some unconscious function. Without intense, lasting anger, hatred, despair, &c., the great writing and music of the world would be nonexistent. If all these artists simply "let go" of their emotions, we would have nothing. Beauty lies in conflict.

    I like Bach's description for one of his pieces: "Wir mssen durch viel Trbsal in das Reich Gottes eingehen." (We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.)

  2. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    Please explain what you mean by self deception. The aim of many meditations is self awareness and precisely the opposite of what you describe.

    Buddhism has values similar to humanist values in that it promotes and has compassion for the suffering of humanty. It doesn't stop there though as it extends this compassion to all living beings.

    It goes much further in the sense of understanding the mid and providing the practitioner with methods for imrpoving their daily lives - through meditation reflection and practice. It identifies antidotes for negative human emotions like anger, greed etc and maps a way of overcoming negative traits and promoting positive ones.
    The mind always returns to the self, to violence. There is no escape from this fact of life, only rest in sacrifice.

  3. #273
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cl154576 View Post
    I've heard about that a million times in therapy ... Letting go of your emotions; "do you want to be right, or do you want to be effective?" ... Acknowledging the emotions, letting go of them; trying to "regulate" emotions, to ease their intensity and make them "tolerable" ...

    I believe we have emotions for a reason, other than that they serve some unconscious function. Without intense, lasting anger, hatred, despair, &c., the great writing and music of the world would be nonexistent. If all these artists simply "let go" of their emotions, we would have nothing. Beauty lies in conflict.

    I like Bach's description for one of his pieces: "Wir mssen durch viel Trbsal in das Reich Gottes eingehen." (We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.)
    I didn't say letting go of emotions. In fact it's a case of reducing negative emotions like anger with a positive one like patience. There's no such phrase in Buddhism. You're right - we have emotions fr a reason, and lots of meditation practices concern developing compassion, appreciation for others etc etc.

    It's like the myth you hear of Buddhists saying empty your mind. I've never been instructed by a Teacher to empty my mind - which is impossible. Rather you work with your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by G L Wilson View Post
    The mind always returns to the self, to violence. There is no escape from this fact of life, only rest in sacrifice.
    Nonsense.

  4. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    Nonsense.
    I am justified of my violent self by heroics.

  5. #275
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G L Wilson View Post
    I am justified of my violent self by heroics.
    Not sure...

  6. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    Not sure...
    Damn.

  7. #277
    Book Novice Thomas Novosel's Avatar
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    In the Bible does god really do anything besides give advice and suggestions?
    No, he just is a sentient onlooker, who is able to control certain things but overall leaves us to our own devices... Just as the creator of the Atom Bomb did not know what implications it would have in the future and how he could not control it... so does God after creating man is unable to alter our own decisions becuase we have free will...and as they are our decisions should he really be dued the blame for the reaction of said decisions? No... As for diseases, illnesses, and suffering across the world... some are natural disasters and some are due to the cruelty of another person.

    And to MarkBastable,... promotion of Disease can occur through the void of action on your account aswell... by not becoming concerned and atleast learning prevention measures for yourself (skin cancer: don't go out in the sun at midday when the sun is at the highest and closest distance to you, relatively speaking of course, or at least stay in the shade, wear sunscreen...) becuase you have to realize what affects you is not just against yourself but against your children aswell. Diseases occur usually through ignorance of easily attainable prevention measures (aside from genetic conditions). Many things otherwise are preventable it is just that most people underestimate the weight there decisions make, that their influence can affect others, and will willingly sit around and say that they cannot do anything about it. But anyone can help the cuase of others,... spend 15 minutes and write a letter to your congressmen, or spend 5 min. researching prevention measures and tell your friends and family about them.
    "Bleak times beckon dark decisions..." -Thomas Novosel 3/24/2012

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by usman.khawar View Post
    i think No. we are not allowed to kill other human beings in the name of God. but what if other try to impose war and you have to defend yourself and your country? than God says fight and kill. there are so many systems human invented. but all fails. no classes. no difference. every system fails. i concluded there should b a system which God made and want human to impose on earth.
    Adam's error was just the reason to send us on earth. and in quran God says go on earth, and when adam ask apology God forgave him and said on earth there is some benifit for you as well. so if any one come to you and says the right things to do follow him. from adam to Muhammad Allah sent 124,ooo mesengers. code of conducts was different with every messenger. but the real objective was same. that is there is no god but Allah, creating gods is the biggest sin. and the same objective that is to find and understand there is only One God. God of all universes and mankind, in chapter Luqman, God catogorizes the biggest sins. when Luqman teaches his son starting from verse no 13 you can see yourself

    1. Alif*Lm*Mm.

    2. These are Verses of the Wise Book (the Qur'n).

    3. A guide and a mercy for the Muhsinn (good*doers)

    4. Those who perform As*Salt (Iqamat*as- Salt) and give Zakt(alms) and they have faith in the Hereafter with certainty(argument).

    5. Such are on guidance from their Lord, and such are the successful.

    6. And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks to mislead (men) from the Path of Allh without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allh, the Verses of the Qur'n) by way of mockery.
    For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).

    7. And when Our Verses are recited to such a one, he turns away in pride, as if he heard them not, as if there were deafness in his ear. So announce to him a painful torment.
    8. Verily, those who believe and do righteous good deeds, for them are Gardens of delight (Paradise).

    9. To abide therein. It is a Promise of Allh in truth. And He is the All*Mighty, the All*Wise.

    10. He has created the heavens without any pillars, that you see
    and has set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you.
    And He has scattered therein moving (living) creatures of all kinds.

    And We send down water (rain) from the sky, and We cause (plants) of every goodly kind to grow therein.

    11. This is the creation of Allh.

    So show Me that which those (whom you worship), besides Him have created.

    Nay,

    the Zlimn (those who do not believe in the Oneness of Allh,polytheists etc) are in plain error.


    12. And indeed We bestowed upon Luqmn Al*Hikmah (wisdom) saying:
    "Give thanks to Allh," and whoever gives thanks, he gives thanks for (the good of) his ownself.
    And whoever is unthankful, then verily, Allh is All*Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.

    13. And (remember) when Luqmn said to his son when he was advising him:

    "O my son! Join not in worship others with Allh.

    Verily! Joining others in worship with Allh is a great Zlm (wrong.sin) indeed.

    14. And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents.

    His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years

    give thanks to Me and to your parents, unto Me is the final destination.

    15. But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not, but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience.

    Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.



    16. "O my son! If it be (anything) equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed, and though it be in a rock, or in the heavens or in the earth, Allh will bring it forth.

    Verily, Allh is Subtle (in bringing out that grain), Well*Aware (of its place).



    17. "O my son! Aqim*is*Salt (perform As*Salt),
    - enjoin (people) for Al*Ma'rf (all that is good), and forbid (people) from Al*Munkar (i.e. disbelief in the Oneness of Allh, polytheism of all kinds and all that is evil and bad),

    - and bear with patience whatever befall you.

    Verily! These are work of big courage.

    18. - "And turn not your face away from men with pride,

    - nor walk in insolence through the earth.

    Verily, Allh likes not each arrogant boaster.

    19. - "And be moderate (or show no insolence) in your walking, and lower your voice.

    Verily, the harshest of all voices is the voice (braying) of the donkey."
    20. See you not (O men) that Allh has subjected for you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and has completed and perfected His Graces upon you, (both) apparent and hidden?

    ...................
    ...Paul what if Man dont impose God's system on earth? nor understand His given systems?
    Rab e adkhilni Mudkhla Sidqnw wa akhrijni mukhraja sidkanw wja alni milla dunka Sultananasira!!

  9. #279
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usman.khawar View Post
    ...Paul what if Man dont impose God's system on earth? nor understand His given systems?
    Putting aside the question of whether it is God's law or not, I think there's a political aspect to the qustion. This comes in with the interpretation and the extension of the law.

    In the past, what has been claimed as God's law has resulted in intransigence and cultural practices that don't seem to have any purpose but control. For example: there are different rules about women's clothing, depending upon where you are; there are different interpretations about whether homosexuals are acceptable or not; there are different interpretations of whether contraception is allowed; about which day is holy or for particular purposes; about what kinds of food are allowed. etc, etc.

    Quite aside from the existence of God is the question of how one can decide what God's law actally is. The religions concerned with the questions above - the different sects of Christians, Jews, and Muslims - will claim that their interpretation is God's law.

    The adoption of one precludes the other. We are now in the situation in the Christian church where rifts are appearing precisely because of this. The same has happened in other religions too.

    So there's a problem with which given system.

    I also think there's a problem with the word "impose". How can belief be imposed upon anyone? I suppose that's why we have the secular law, because it is very unclear which law is God's, and what happens when some accept it and others don't.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberbob View Post
    Yep. If God can see the future then he knew the Fall of Man would occur and would, in fact, know every single person who was destined to go to Hell.

    This is only the beginning of the freaky extrapolations one gets by assuming an all-powerful, all-seeing God.

    If God already knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, he'd be arbitrarily creating some people who would be destined for paradise and some who'd be destined for eternal suffering.

    Furthermore, what's the point of creating children and then having them die right away, such as in the case of a miscarriage? In these cases the people do not get the opportunity to choose right over wrong or learn any lessons. God knew they'd be created and destroyed right away without a chance at life so why not prevent it? If they go to Hell that's bull**** because they never had a chance, and if they go to heaven that's bull**** because they got a free pass.

    I could go on and on like this just with omniscience. Throw in omnipotence and one could devote their life to finding oddities in the concept of God.
    I've never found these arguments particularly compelling. You're already accepting the premise that god is omnipotent therefore it can do anything. Anything that you perceive as pointless or immoral can all be part of a bigger divine plan. Even questions like "can god microwave a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it" become silly. If god is truly omnipotent then it can do anything, even superseding paradoxes like this. god is also seen as a divine authority, so no moral objection you have could be vindicated. At most you could only say you don't like god's morals.
    Check out my blog it has basically nothing to do with literature.
    http://slingsandarrowsandtheproudman.blogspot.com/

  11. #281
    Registered User Darcy88's Avatar
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    I'm still very much an atheist, but the problem of evil is no longer an issue in my eyes. It used to be the one thing I could always aim at Christianity and be assured a clean devastating hit. But if God created a crystal palace utopia then life would suck. Without evil life would suck. Indeed, without suffering and without evil life would cease and there'd be nothing but waking death. Through suffering we learn and we strengthen ourselves. My parents didn't give me nice things growing up, there were spans of time covering multiple years where my life at home and in my head was a ghastly flaming hell. But I am glad for all that. As cliched as it sounds, it made me who I am. If God gave us everything on a silver platter we'd be a boring unadmirable species. Paradise Lost would suck bad if Eve hadn't taken a bite, if Lucifer hadn't picked a fight. A baby being born HIV positive is a hard thing to accept even with my attitude and I do not accept it. But overall, as far as this world as a whole goes, I absolve God of this charge that he ought to line every street with gold and wrap every surface in protective bubble-sheets and guarantee our every comfort and wish. Its ridiculous. Being born is setting out to sea and if that sea is without ripple, without wave or tumult.......what's the point?

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by G L Wilson View Post
    You come at me with Paul? Read on in Romans and see what there is to find. Nonetheless, Heaven is poorly populated. As Nietzsche said, "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing." There will be a lot of good people down in hell, why should I be afraid to go there?
    The idea of hell is surely that you suffer torment. Having groovy people around you while you suffer torment wouldn't, I'd have thought, be much consolation.

    I don't know whether Heaven and Hell exist... If they do, I'm sure they're not like anybody imagines them. (I am pretty certain there is something more than the material world, but all we can ever get is hints and intimations. On balance I tend to the Hindu view that the material world is an illusion - "God's dream", as someone else here put it.)
    Last edited by FranzS; 04-01-2012 at 09:21 AM.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darcy88 View Post
    I'm still very much an atheist, but the problem of evil is no longer an issue in my eyes. It used to be the one thing I could always aim at Christianity and be assured a clean devastating hit. But if God created a crystal palace utopia then life would suck. Without evil life would suck. Indeed, without suffering and without evil life would cease and there'd be nothing but waking death. Through suffering we learn and we strengthen ourselves. My parents didn't give me nice things growing up, there were spans of time covering multiple years where my life at home and in my head was a ghastly flaming hell. But I am glad for all that. As cliched as it sounds, it made me who I am. If God gave us everything on a silver platter we'd be a boring unadmirable species. Paradise Lost would suck bad if Eve hadn't taken a bite, if Lucifer hadn't picked a fight. A baby being born HIV positive is a hard thing to accept even with my attitude and I do not accept it. But overall, as far as this world as a whole goes, I absolve God of this charge that he ought to line every street with gold and wrap every surface in protective bubble-sheets and guarantee our every comfort and wish. Its ridiculous. Being born is setting out to sea and if that sea is without ripple, without wave or tumult.......what's the point?
    Schopenhauer has some subtle ideas about religion... Basically, his argument is that man (well not just man, all life - "Will" to use S's term) took the option of abandoning timeless, desireless, uncontingent existence in order to acquire material form. Man/Will gains material consistency, a body to call his own - but he also gains an adversary in the form of an external world he can't control.

    So by this argument, even things like natural disasters are just consequences of our having opted to live in a material, contingent world - well not "our" having opted for this, but the subconscious souls that we carry.

    In a sense, the Devil can be interpreted as "the spirit of materialism" or "the architect of the world" - some argue that everything that is matter is the Devil's work. Hence earthquakes etc. can be blamed on the Devil rather than God. Where this leaves God's supposed omnipotence, I don't know... I kind of intuitively think of God as having agreed not to intercede (much) in the material world... and perhaps the suffering of humanity will seem, from the transcendent perspective, irrelevant - just as the second you awake from a nightmare, it's as though it happened to someone else.

  14. #284
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    The problem of evil posts that if there's a God the Creator, then why allow evil into the world in the first place.

    If God's not an omnipotent creator - then that would explain it. If God is an omnipotent creator, then there's the problem of why. There is speculation upon this, and you can see the argument that says it's to test humans, to provide them with challenges and to help them develop. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is senseless suffering. How do people benefit from the cruelty of tsunami that destroys thousands of lives, or a holocaust and war that killed millions?

    In the theistic worldviews, you have one life to make the best of your circumstances. So where's the test or development in being born into grinding poverty and dying of starvation? There are things to be learned by such situations, but what would you think of a God that set up such a situation to teach you that? You do hear this argument - that these things are sent to try us, and God gives the greatest burdon to those with the broadest backs, but these are invariably uttered by people who live in comfortable circumstances and who know little of the extent of suffering in the world.

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    Paul's point is very well answered and explained by darcy. "Being born is setting out to sea and if that sea is without ripple, without wave or tumult.......what's the point? " and also " if God created a crystal palace utopia then life would suck. Without evil life would suck. Indeed, without suffering and without evil life would cease" this is what i have already wrote. but these wordings are much better than mine which darcy used to interprete this view. What darcy if we replace the word suck with stuck ?

    we cant say anything senseless without knowledge. i think i have shared a story or gave hint of that from quran about Moses and khizer. When Moses asked God in little pride that on earth is there anyone who have more knowledge then me? God suggested him to meet with khizer. he met him and asked him" whether i can walk with you to learn that knowlegde which u have" ? khizer replied you cant walk me coz u would nt hold patience! you are unable to make sense about the things which happens around me. Moses insisted. khizer said on one condition you can go with me that is you will not question me. Moses gave his words! They start their journey. They reached at river and aksed a poor professional boatman to drop them on the other side of the river, and sat in the boat. When they were leaving khizer made some holes in the new ship of poor boat man. Moses wondered and could not stop himself to make a question “why did u make holes in the only ship of poor boat man?” khizer taunt him that he was not supposed to make a question no matter how much senseless things happened. Moses was curious but revised his promise to continue his journey with khizer to learn what he got. They continued and reached at a place where some kids were playing. Khizer killed a child with no apparent reason. Moses now could not control himself and burst in wonder “why did u kill an innocent boy” this was totally sense less for Moses that boy was the only son of his parents. The same dialogue was spoken and moses said that give me last chance I’ll not ask question again and once more time they continued and reached at a village. Khizer asked some food from the dwellers but they refused to give strangers any compensation. Khizer now started to rebuild a wall of a plot which was about to fell. Moses helped him and when they finished, khizer step forward to leave the village. Moses was again surprised he caught the arm of khizer and asked why did not you ask for food again as wages?

    Khizer stopped and said to moses “you and me cannot walk together” and here khizer unveiled the secret of patience “how can u keep patience without knowledge” if u dont have knowlegde you cannot keep patience.

    Before leaving he also told him the reasons of his acts which were directly commanded and directed by God. On the otherside of the river there was a new cruel king who was snatching the new boats to make his naval fllet for deep waters so I made holes. That kid was the child of faithful couple, this kid would make trouble not only for himself but also would be caused to damage the faith of his parents. Now I killed him, his parents would keep patience that God does always good, in the reward God give them more children which would prove blessings for his parents. That kid would also be dwel in paradise for eternity. The last act, that plot belongs to a noble man who prayed while dying that o my lord, when my children reached at the age of maturity then the treasure which he buried under that wall would open to them.

    i have a verse in mind about it. La hola wla quwata illa billa, beautiful and mind opening verse to understand the intention system , suffering and blessings. which also clarify the point what devil's work is, how many basics powers in the universe etc.. will write soon..
    Last edited by usman.khawar; 04-02-2012 at 10:05 AM.
    Rab e adkhilni Mudkhla Sidqnw wa akhrijni mukhraja sidkanw wja alni milla dunka Sultananasira!!

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