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Thread: Why Not Poetry?

  1. #1
    Skol'er of Thinkery The Comedian's Avatar
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    Why Not Poetry?

    I asked all of my classes (about 100 students total) to name their favorite poem/poet. The results of my survey were sad but expected. Most had no idea how to respond. A few said "Poe" because they've heard of him before. The most popular was the children's poet Shel Silverstein. A few tried to argue that Dr. Seuss was a poet.

    It was staggering to see how little poetry is read. These students are all adults and comprise more-or-less a typical student body of first-year college students: some exceptionally smart and engaged, some woefully struggling and apathetic, but most fall somewhere in between these two extremes.

    But here's the thing: many read frequently. . .and they ALL have copious songs that they enjoy. And while I agree that song lyrics don't equal poetry, they're still similar enough to make me wonder this: Why such a fervent devotion to one and a profound distaste to the other?

    Both lyrics and poetry are, generally: (1) short (2) rhythmic (3) metaphorical and (4) use imagery to depict meaning and emotion.

    I offered my puzzlement to them (summarized above). The responses I got were not very articulate. The best I got was that poetry is "hard to understand". This statement was widely agreed upon. But I countered by asking if they really "understood" the lyrics to their favorite song? Most said "no"; they didn't.

    Then why so much hate/apathy for poetry? Silence. . . . .
    Last edited by The Comedian; 04-11-2011 at 08:36 PM.
    “Oh crap”
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  2. #2
    riding a cosmic vortex MystyrMystyry's Avatar
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    Well Sir - I liked poetry in primary school, went to a tough inner city working class high school where it essentially vanished from the list of important things overnight for five years

    Hollywood, The Opposite Sex, Music, Football, Rock and/or Roll, Parties, Wild in the Streets - everything far more social

    Over a year outside of high school and naturally the social scene changed, pubs, clubs, and a chance discovery of a folk club within a pub - far more civilised and the musos and poets would stand in front of the cramped room reserved for us every second Friday, beer in one and, smoke in the other playing and reciting our compositions

    My love for the poem was reborn - and it was social! People would enthuse over everyone from e e cummings to Homer, everything from Romanticism through Metaphysics to Post Modern Deconstructionism - I feel like crying over the memory

    Anyway the general parties with this fascinating new crowd continued throughout the week, and jams readings, salons etc at various houses ensued with the bluster of total abandon...

    Until the pub was sold, and the folk gatherings no more, and the folkies drifted apart, largely to other towns, and with no-one readily to discuss it with poetry once again taking a back seat to science fiction, jazz and classical music, a burgeoning interest in synthesisers and pretty much everything else

    There was a free monthly newspaper with a scattering of poems and short stories in it - a few quickly forgotten start up meetings and occasional people you'd meet at a bus stop - but it needed a scene

    A scene like Litnet


    It's a solitary pursuit poetry, at least in it's written form, and when humans start to not use a skill they eventually drop it altogether - the skill in this case not just the recording, but also the reciting and communication of ideas

    Imagine walking into a pub full of interesting intelligent ravers of all ages who just didn't really care about social convention and accepted everyone in, let everone find a voice and a place, had rockin' parties all week long - and wrote songs and poetry

    And then it stops - not moved to another site - just gone...


    Thank God for Litnet I say!

  3. #3
    Skol'er of Thinkery The Comedian's Avatar
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    I really like your idea that poetry needs a "scene" -- and, honestly, perhaps that's why I continue to read and post here -- but to be social and to make poetry a social experience is surely something to consider.
    “Oh crap”
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  4. #4
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    Perhaps the problem lies in the lack of importance language has in the minds of those whose only real concern exists in immediate pleasantries. Christ, with all this text-based gadgetry the youngsters are becoming diluted to the meaning and importance of words; stifled to progress for the sake of accessible media acting against the efforts of poets and teachers.

    As a student myself, an amateur student at that, I can say it is the fault of the user. Why do we need poetry? How many times have you heard, "I don't need [subject material] in real life."

    Who knows, at least there are some.
    Last edited by EricW; 04-11-2011 at 04:40 PM.
    Whilst indulging myself into a cup of mud at a local diner, I happened to glance at a young couple sitting in a booth across from one another, glaring into their own laps. Upon further investigation I discovered they were not in mourning, but rather silently text messaging on their cell phones with exceptional dexterity and incredible speed.

  5. #5
    Registered User billl's Avatar
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    Poetry As A Rewarding Social Activity
    I agree that poetry needs a social angle, for a lot of people at least. On my own, of course, I can enjoy the "hard to understand" quality of it, the enjoyment of figuring out a riddle. I can also appreciate the transmission of an experience, or the capture of an emotion (although I think the bluer emotions get a little over-represented, on the whole). However, I mostly just can't devote myself to reading or writing poetry, especially without the prospect of getting/reading feedback/praise, etc.--and even that can end up a little embarrassing.

    The brevity of most poems is maybe what makes them great in a social setting: people can take turns, and with a limited amount of time a variety of things can be presented and pondered. And almost everybody can do it. Poetry buffs might be very particular, and hold certain poets above certain others, and find great pleasure in plumbing depths and wondering at a certain poet's genius. But, for a lot of people, I think the desire to write one's own (and even the belief that one's own poetry is worth the attention of others) is a common reaction to poetry.

    Poetry isn't always good, of course, but at this point, I can't imagine paying money for a book of poetry. I bought a portable Blake years ago, and enjoyed it, and I guess I've gotten quite a few epic poems, of course--but some new person? The stuff online at Litnet is good enough for me, if I want to read something new. And it's interesting to see fans of the form share opinions and (mostly) enjoy each other's company.

    The 'Problem' With Poetry
    The problem with poetry, and why I didn't care for it in high school (and still pretty much have a neutral or even negative reaction to it) is that it is basically affected. Prose is something that can be fallen into, and it respects the reader, it seems real (I'm being general, here, of course). You get a book, read it, you get a story or an essay or whatever, and you enjoy it (if it's a good book). With poetry, there's something sort of pretentious and (nowadays, anyhow) really odd happening. People pouring their hearts out (not always, I'm generalizing), using odd rhythms, rhymes, syntax--it's an imposition, in a way. Instead of the comfortable sharing of prose, there's a demand from the beginning that the reader or listener tilt his or her head, or raise his or her eyebrows--and go along with a little show. In the right frame of mind, it can really work, but I personally have misgivings about the whole thing.

    I am a big fan of language, and have enjoyed studying and teaching it. I love it for the artistry that can be done with it as well, and I love puns and beautiful words and all of the poetic techniques. But for me, the deployment of all of this in prose is basically enough. The whole idea of poetry seems to me a little arbitrary. There are cool things that can be done, using language to cause effects, but it's like a poor man's music, to me. 'Love' rhymes with 'dove', and this or that word will have the right number of syllables... To write music is to choose from notes and rhythms, and craft something from a realm of astounding freedom and flexibility. I realize I'm not being fair here (the difference between language and music is that language can carry thoughts much more efficiently, and thoughts can be VERY interesting), and I certainly do enjoy reading poetry on occasion--but I can totally understand why this "game" of poetry has lost a lot of its appeal. I'm usually more in the mood to change into a slightly different gear, and read some prose, rather than undergo the bowing and scraping to strange formalism (or non-formalism) and the gradual gaping at the void, or the sudden cardiac swooning or whatever that poetry is often going for.

    Is There A Problem?
    I understand, of course, that there might be objections to what I'm saying. It might seem like I'm saying that great art has to be easy for the audience to appreciate (which is wrong, of course, but it might be what I'm unwittingly doing--I certainly hope that poetry lovers would take comfort in that possibility, rather than feel I have successfully provided reason for them to abandon their passion, certainly). It might seem like I'm ignoring the imagery and emotion that is so often the goal of poetry (again, I am certainly able to love it for the language, and also for where the language leads me). It might seem like a bias to find poetry to be a sort of "game" or a strange craftsmanship performed with a large and mostly arbitrarily assembled collection of tools (ie. the elements of a particular language), tools that are normally used for more straight-forward and audience-friendly purposes--like I am turning my back, essentially, on a focus on all of the little things I find beautiful about language...

    Yes, that last one is probably how I would describe it. But I think a lot of people share this bias. That focus (poetry's concentrated deployment of language's chance peculiarities) is a little inauthentic, if one hasn't been properly indoctrinated. Is it a celebration of language, or are readers being exposed to a gruesome and vain display of ingenuity exacted on something meant for something else entirely? Well, that's a little overheated, sorry. And "indoctrinated" is, of course, a loaded term. But I don't think kids are crazy or stupid not to be interested in poetry, and it isn't necessarily a shame that they feel that way. The situation might be an inconvenience in the classroom however... so I think a teacher should be proud of any eyes they might be able to open, and any poetry fans they might be able to bring about. I don't really find it too appealing most of the time, but it is one of those (many) things where learning about it can only make a brain get better.
    Last edited by billl; 04-11-2011 at 04:59 PM.

  6. #6
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    I always thought it was because listening to a song is effortless, while reading a poem requires some effort from the person. Besides music has always appealed more than literature throughout history

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    Poetry is sorely underrepresented in popular culture as compared to other art forms and, in literary circles, compared to the novel and non-fiction. The lack of valuation placed on poetry leads it to be under-looked or even overlooked by most parents and teachers, who are the first to expose children to literature, which, when combined with a lack of pushing by peers and media leads to an ignorance and, in that ignorance, potential disdain.

    Arguably the most popular art form, music is pushed constantly to anyone with a television, the internet, or friends. However the media coverage of poets and poetry is...lacking (to say the least). Whenever I am at someone's house and they flip on the television (I do not own one; I don't much care for corporate/government indoctrination) one can find music, whether in shows/movies, on music videos, or in the radio music channels. One would be hard pressed to find such exposure to novels or even the visual arts, let alone poetry.

    When one gets into circles where literature is popular (if not the point) there is still a tragic lack of emphasis on poetry. In my personal experience with such things as book clubs and even the library the novel reins with its' consort non-fiction. There is little, if any, mention of poetry even by those who are quite intelligent and well-read, not even a mention of dislike, it is as if poetry doesn't exist. Which is, in my opinion, far more of a shame than with the general populace.

    When poetry is not emphasized by the culture (popular or not) it can be easily swept aside for other, more popular forms of literature to take precedence. In my personal experience, while I was read to regularly as a child, poetry was scant, if not nonexistent. When I went to school the instruction received in poetry did not in any way parallel that as in other forms of literature. Many students I am sure, would be more open to poetry if they had a significant experience of it, unfortunately many don't.

    The place of poetry among modern young people is a complex reaction to many variables. In the end, it is not one thing, but the persuasive effects of many things that has an insidiously corrosive effect on poetry's place not only with young people, but society as a whole.

  8. #8
    [no title] Armel P's Avatar
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    I think part of the reason poetry isn't as read is that nobody talks to students about poetry. Poetry is just presented and people are just expected to read it, analyze meter and rhyme and that's that. That's the wrong thing to begin with. Teachers usually fail to communicate the world of poetry. The intention of the poets. The overall history of poetry and the development of the ideas. Students never walkaway from a lit class with a picture, an understanding, of the ideas that unite Shakespeare, Yeats, Rilke, Rimbaud, Cummings, Neruda etc. even Bukowski and Brautigan. Students aren't taught to love the manipulation of language. Poetry never shows up in a curriculum as another grand form of literature but is usually a quick tangent to check off from a list of things to touch upon. No one ever answers the unspoken question that students have: why do people write poetry? If a literature teacher is serious about getting his or her students to appreciate poetry, that is what needs to be discussed before anything else. Spend a couple of months on that, on the essence, without ever even mentioning consonance, assonance, rhyme, and meter. Otherwise the class'll be a sham and they'll be eating green eggs and ham.
    Last edited by Armel P; 04-11-2011 at 08:26 PM.

  9. #9
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    Most poetry in the last several hundred years has been quite light and thin.That is especially true of Post-Romantic poetry. In times when poetry served a purpose and poets wrote serious literature, poetry was popular and remembered. These days nearly everyone is literate, so they can enjoy prose, rather than trying to memorize poetry. If poets wrote good, satisfying, memorable poetry, then it might still be absorbed, but the word-play of poetry can be done more fully in prose, and modern poets don't understand how to use rhyme and rhythm, so no one remembers thier work, unless it gets used in advertising.

  10. #10
    [no title] Armel P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    Most poetry in the last several hundred years has been quite light and thin.
    The last several hundred years? I'm sure Beowulf is not the only valuable poem. This comment seems to be coming more from your taste than from an actual problem in poetry.

    and modern poets don't understand how to use rhyme and rhythm, so no one remembers thier work
    I disagree with this. Serious poets don't write free verse or prose poetry because they are ignorant about real poetry. And a lot of more recent poetry (relative to your timeline) has great meter and rhyme. anyone lived in a pretty how town is definitely memorable for me.

    as is...

    l(a

    le
    af
    fa
    ll

    s)
    one
    l

    iness



    WCW's red wheel barrow poem is probably one of the most memorable ever written.
    Last edited by Armel P; 04-11-2011 at 06:48 PM.

  11. #11
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Those who understand the language of poetry love it. Songs are similar, though connected (Ballads being the root of modern Songs, to an extent).

    Poetry though thrives on its art - novels thrive on their narration, poetry on its rhetoric. People do not spend the time to learn it, so they think it is "weird," "gay," "pretentious," or simply crappy and boring - and those who do try to get to read it end up reading the most cliche garbage they can find on top of it.

    American and Canadian education does not seem to value it particularly highly either, which adds to something - various other traditions do, but even still, there is a sort of reverence and distaste for people well versed.

    For instance, there is also this misconception that every poem is about a woman, and everyone who knows poetry is romantic, whereas if you read the sex scene from Marlowe's Hero and Leander, you know it to be nothing but the case.

    In general, the answer why people do not like poetry is imply because they do not understand it, and have no will to put in any effort. It was all written to be read.

    That being said, some poets are more accessible than others, as is the case with novelists. Some people though have problems distinguishing from the truly difficult (Hart Crane) and the rather easy yet effort taking (Shakespeare). from the simply easy yet fun (Lewis Carrol).

  12. #12
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    Most poetry in the last several hundred years has been quite light and thin.That is especially true of Post-Romantic poetry. In times when poetry served a purpose and poets wrote serious literature, poetry was popular and remembered. These days nearly everyone is literate, so they can enjoy prose, rather than trying to memorize poetry. If poets wrote good, satisfying, memorable poetry, then it might still be absorbed, but the word-play of poetry can be done more fully in prose, and modern poets don't understand how to use rhyme and rhythm, so no one remembers thier work, unless it gets used in advertising.
    What a sophism if I have ever read one. The reason people don't read poetry today like they did has nothing to do with it. Simply put, people read more poetry today then ever, and more people write verses than ever. What purpose did poetry ever serve, rather than give Trojan ancestors to famous nobleman (which had no real effect on common thought). Poets are good and bad, as always. The games of poetry and prose are not so connected as you make it out to seem.

    There is nothing to show poetry has declined in terms of readership, the only thing that has declined is the prestige it has within a cultural frame. But then again, in English North America, literacy and culture were never particularly prized, compared with money and merchandise.

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    I didn't begin to like poetry until I started to introduce myself to poets, rather than trying to read the "great poets" that everyone thinks I need to read. It's sometimes easy for me to recognize what those masters have accomplished, but that doesn't mean that's what I want to read for enjoyment. I loved when JBI said that many people who do read poetry end up reading the most cliched crap they can find--or they come to those older poets without the depth of knowledge to really get them, and see them as...well, greeting cards. I'm the first to admit that I don't understand poetry at all, but for some reason, I keep reading it, fascinated by what I sometimes believe I do understand. I read contemporary poetry almost exclusively--and while I'm sure many of you have a great grasp of Yeats and Donne and Shakespeare, what I have I would not give up: a sickening love of contemporary poetry.
    J.H.S.

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    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    In the UK, poetry is introduced in primary school, and studied in secondary for English GCSEs - the standard 16 year old's english qualification. Then that's it unless you take a lit A'Level and go on to study at Uni. I don't see where people get their liking for poetry for the most part, but some certainly do.

    A few years ago a colleague of mine happened to mention in the school staff room that he really liked reading poetry. He lter told me that 5 or 6 people had come up to him with small collections of poems that they had written or him to read on the quiet. I was surprised.

    A few years later i was studying for my adult teachig qualification and came across a study which had discovered that a surprising number of people - not well educated for the most part - in Lancaster - a small northern town - regularly wrote their own poetry. The study was called " Local Literacies: Reading and writing in One community". I was again surprised.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Local-Litera...2566889&sr=1-1

    Now when I look in the local paper - The Coventry Telegraph, you do see quite a few poems written by locals wanting to get their point across. (I don't read them as they are usually terrible - about things like pot holes and other complaints - or is that just me being sniffy?).

    Anyway, i think JBI's right. There are more people reading and possibly writing poetry. It's just that there is no outlet for it. As Billl says, poetry in reading public does seem a bit pretentious, but perhaps that's just something we need to get over. There aren't many publishing outlets, it doesn't pay unles you get some kind of official post.

    I've taught a couple of creative writing classes, and there was a lot of interest in the poetry, but the ladies were almost all retired. It may be that intrest in poetry, the language and deeper meaning is a more mature pursuit oris perceived by young people as such.

  15. #15
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    From my experience, young children in school are still exposed to poetry (Dr. Seuss, etc...) and they quite love it. They like the word play and the rhyme and they can memorize it, etc... The problem comes later when the focus in reading is almost solely upon narrative and poetry fades away. With the focus in education upon the quantifiable and the State standardized tests imagined as the last word as to the effectiveness of the teacher and the learning of the student, not much time is left for poetry... which like art and music is not something that can be proven to have "worth" to those who measure everything by objective standards.

    We can look here at a site that one supposes is made up of those who love to read, and recognize the results of such "education". How many here ever name a poem or book of poems whenever the question of favorite books is raised? How many here frequently participate in the poetry discussions on the poetry boards? High-school English/Literature classes often have a set manner of analyzing and discussing books breaking them down into plot, setting, characters, theme, moral. How often have we had members here criticize books according to such guidelines... as if there were a single objective means of "analyzing" art... regardless of the intentions of the writer? How often do we get students asking us for the "meaning" of a poem... as if "getting it"... knowing what it means... is the end-all/be-all of appreciating poetry?

    The problem with poetry, and why I didn't care for it in high school (and still pretty much have a neutral or even negative reaction to it) is that it is basically affected. Prose is something that can be fallen into...

    I'm not certain I fully accept this notion. Prose can be and often is just as "affected" or artificial as poetry. Very few writers... even in prose... write in the same way as they speak. Prose... the novel and the short story... ironically seem more "natural"... less affected... even though they are far newer art forms and even though they rely upon an even greater suspension of disbelief... even more illusion.

    I would note that "poetry" in the form of song still captures the younger audience. How often do we have someone start still one more thread about how the lyrics of Led Zeppelin or P Diddy are really poetry worthy of being read alongside Wordsworth and Keats?
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