Huh?Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
"I look handsome, I look smart, I am a walking work of art . . . "
"Close every door to me. Keep those I love from me. Forget all about me, and leave me to die!"
"Those Canaan days we used to know, where have they gone? Where did they go?"
They're lyrics from the Andrew Lloyd Weber musical Orphanpip was talking about.Huh?
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Last edited by Drkshadow03; 12-21-2010 at 08:40 PM.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
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Yes, I realized that was what the quotes were from. I was just expressing how strange I found them... Thanks for the links. I'll listen to the videos later, but I'm not too fond of musicals.They're lyrics from the Andrew Lloyd Weber musical Orphanpip was talking about.
You can list here, here, and here.
However, if you'd prefer music to go with our current story, you can click here.
Excellent discussion up to this point, very insightful points have been brought up for thoughtful consideration. I too, have heard of the Epic of Gilgamesh flood and how the Bible "copies" it. That link is a bit tenuous as we must remember that "correlation doesn't prove causation." While they appear to be related, it would be a mistake to assume that they necessarily are simply because both stories mention a flood. Ted Cabal and other apologists have also pointed out that the flood is the main story in the Genesis account, while it was more of a side note in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
Chapter 6's emphasis on the corruption of mankind brings several interesting points to consider. the "sons of god...daughters of men" reference can be interpreted as angels taking human women for wives, a "corruption" of marriage that was punishable by God. It could also be argued by other sources, that the followers of God began marrying the daughters of Cain. Theological debates on matters like this are excellently covered through The MacArthur study Bible which I have, definitely a ton of great material if one is inclined to shell out the money.
I have to say that Chapter 7 is one of my favorite to read, I just love the account of the flood, as well as the scientific debate about it. I was quite unaware about the flood occurring from above, as well as below. The "fountains of the deep" and "the floodgates of the sky" hypothesis is fascinating to look at, though it far from proven that holding that amount of water in the atmosphere is far from proven. I have also heard of others arguing that the other was covered in a "mist" and that perhaps this was the water from above.
Interestingly enough the Hud from the Koran mentions the flood and also has a line where it is also stated that the water came from above and below. In 11.044, Noah asks Allah to stop the rain from the sky and for the earth to swallow up the water. Also interestingly enough, the Hud contains passages about Noah losing a son who thought he would be safe scaling up a mountain, and that he was unrighteous. Genesis 6 mentions Noah's three sons, but as far as I can gather, not one of them is mentioned to have been crushed in the flood.
I marked the parts in bold that interested me.
The Hud clearly was written after the Torah and it is likely that Mohammad modified the original version to suit his purposes. It is harder to tell if the flood mentioned in Genesis was based on an earlier story, perhaps something the Hittites were aware of. My suspicion is that it was.
I also wonder where all the water came from. It had to cover all the land. Perhaps the land sank under the weight of the water much like it did with the glaciers. Or perhaps it is just a story. Or a story of an event less global that happened long ago.
Thanks for giving this thread some new life!
Biblical "science" is rather intriguing just from a sociological perspective, in that the shoddy processes of a priori assumption and weak application of intellectual rigour that goes into those studies seems to engender support amongst the same people who resist the rigorously tested and supported theory of evolution. A global flood like that mentioned in the Noah story is an impossibility, and there is no physical evidence of any flood ever having happened. Small scale flash floods do occasionally happen, so it is easy to understand how societies with primitive understandings of the natural world could develop a story of a global flood, or how a story of a regional flood could become exaggerated over several generations.
The fact that Gilgamesh and Noah mention floods isn't what people base the theory that the Noah story takes from the previous. The fact is that the story is found throughout the region, in roughly the same form, and that the Gilgamesh story is older than the Noah one. You can do this with essentially any myth, at least as far back as the beginning of literate culture. That's what the field of comparative religion is largely based on. Religions borrowed from each other like mad in antiquity.
Edit: fyi I'd still be interested in discussing Joshua, which is a story that I think has more literary merit than Noah, if someone wants to start a thread on it.
"If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
- Margaret Atwood
Thanks for the kind response YesNo. I am a member of several book forums and I have to say that I have to come here if I want a rich discussion, the others serve more of a social function for me. It's great to see a place where some in-depth conversations can be had.
Yes, the covering of all the mountains does necessitate the stretching of credulity, no doubt about that. From what I gather from the MacArthur study Bible, atmospheric conditions were completely different back then. It is alien to us as things are drastically different now. While I understand the concept of a "thermal blanket" of water surrounding the atmosphere, I have a problem swallowing it realistically. It has been proffered that volcanic explosions due to the separating of the earth's crust, could have punctured such an atmospheric phenomenon, unleashing giant floods. The wellsprings from "below" is also an interesting item to look at. To interpret the reading, you can't help but glean from the reading that there was a ton of water under the crust below the waterbed. It is also interesting to note that there are over 270 flood narratives. Christian apologists would argue that this is grounds of proof of the Noahic flood of course.
Well samples from glacial ice would suggest that atmosphere conditions 5000-10,000 years ago were relatively the same. You have to go back a few million to have major differences, although climatic changes have occurred more regionally.
I've read the idea of an atmospheric blanket of water before, except such a thing would be physically impossible, if there was that much atmospheric water, human beings would be suffocating. If it were somehow held up in the air away from ground levels, how did it not turn to ice? The idea is scientifically untenable.
"If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
- Margaret Atwood
Sorry that I missed your reply just before mine OP. When people post close in time, that happens, quite annoying when it happens to you.
Perhaps a narrative about a flood is a common thread. I would be able to buy into that rationalization. At the same time, it cannot be definitively proven who borrowed a story from who. The atheist argument fails on that point, perhaps the only point that does.The fact is that the story is found throughout the region, in roughly the same form, and that the Gilgamesh story is older than the Noah one. You can do this with essentially any myth, at least as far back as the beginning of literate culture. That's what the field of comparative religion is largely based on. Religions borrowed from each other like mad in antiquity.
On this point, I would definitely have to agree with you. Talkorigins is a great website that contains a TON of information on creationist claims. You can find the relevant points about the water canopy here. To me, the onus is one the believer to establish proof of antediluvian conditions through the fossil and plant life records.I've read the idea of an atmospheric blanket of water before, except such a thing would be physically impossible, if there was that much atmospheric water, human beings would be suffocating. If it were somehow held up in the air away from ground levels, how did it not turn to ice? The idea is scientifically untenable.
What I find interesting about the flood story is that cultures all over the world have legends and myths about it. How is this possible, if there is not a grain of truth to it?
Dostoevsky gives me more than any scientist.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. - Albert Einstein
Those broad statements neglect the subtleties though. Some cultures have flood myths that involve gods destroying a village, many cultures have flood stories to explain the origin of the oceans. In the Middle-East you get the Global Flood myth in particular.
Myths about floods are very common, because floods are a common occurrence.
"Babel myths" about gods creating the different languages are incredibly common as well. Yet, we can trace quite accurately the divergence of languages and identify how they are related and have changed over time.
Edit: It should also be noted that many cultures that had flood myths didn't actually believe them as literally true.
"If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
- Margaret Atwood
That still doesn't explain why so many cultures all over the world had myths and legends about worldwide floods, not just local floods.
Dostoevsky gives me more than any scientist.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. - Albert Einstein
Some Christian apologists have argued that all the other 269 flood stories are latter year recollections of "the flood" mentioned in Genesis. The Epic of Gilgamesh was written roughly 2150-2000 B.C.E. while Genesis was created around 1450-1405 according to the MacArthur study Bible. This in and of itself may not be significant. Genesis could have existed in oral tradition or on written text before this, we just don't know it yet. On a different level, OP already answered the question.
Geography does determine religious text to a certain extent. The rules of trade and legal dealings mentioned in Leviticus or the Koran are directly related to the economy of the people. Marriage rights and inheritance laws are to prevent tribal strife which could have tore the community apart, not to mention conflicts over property jurisdiction(i.e.-whose child is this?) which would have necessitated the need for laws regarding marriage, children, and divorce.Myths about floods are very common, because floods are a common occurrence.
The flooding of the Black Sea 7500 years ago might be an explanation for some of the stories: http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news165.htm
This would be a local flooding, however, but massive. Then stories of the event spread.
As literature, I have to say that chapter 6 to 8 is a good read. I prefer the creation story in chapter 1 quite frankly, there is something majestic and powerful about it. The description of the flood rains from above and below makes for an impressive imaginative picture in one's mind. Say what you want about science, but the Hebrews were not too bad when it came to literature writing.
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