Religion and War

[Sebas. Melmoth]

How many of you have read the Church fathers writings? I bet none.

Suggest Eusebius' History of the Church.

http://www.penguin.co.uk/nf/Book/Boo...445350,00.html

http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/B...hurch_Eusebius

[Virgil]

@Virgil- What is the worth of a book, in which you are supposed to base your worldview upon, if you have be a scholar to understand it and to defend it from it's perceived deficiencies? So does the average Christian understand the Bible?

On the basic points of Christianity yes. That we are linked to Judaism through the Old Testament, that God became incarnate in Christ as we celebrate on Christmas, that Christ's moral teachings (simplified to love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself) are our guide and obligation, that Christ without resistance sufferred torture, was crucified, and through that sacrifice redeemed mankind and our inability to adhere to His moral code, that his resurrection provides salvation, and that through your love of Christ and acceptance of His sacrifice one will have eternal life. That's the core and I believe the average Christain understands that. Defend the Bible from what? If you don't accept it, that's your loss. The key for the average Christian is not so much the logic, but the spirituality. Ultimately one has to have God in one's heart.

In my study of Christanity I have found it to be incredibly complex, and while I can't say I know other religions well, Christianity seems way more complicated than the others. First of all you have two layers of Biblical texts (Old and New Testaments) and the ritual links between the two, the four layers of the Gospels, the concept of God as transcendent and simultaneously imminent, the concept of the Trinity (one God three Beings), salvation, righteousness, and so on. The overlapping of theological principles are astonishing. It's not easy for the average person to understand all that.

[The Atheist]

That is a legitamate question. He doesn't to my memory. Christ is a pacifist, for all intents and purposes, though I don't think He addresses war specifically.

I disagree.

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment

Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also

Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

If you can think of any way any of those don't apply to war equally with all forms of violence, then please get back to me.

I thought Jesus was 100% unequivocal on the matter myself, but as you rightly note:

It's not easy for the average person to understand all that.

I'm just a simple soul who dares to presume that when an actual god says something, it would be sensible to comply.

Not that what Jesus said about war has any bearing on my own pacifism, I just enjoy the irony.

[JuniperWoolf]

Instead of googling it and coming up with some website. Why don't we start with one that you know of personally. If you don't know of one personally, then you are assuming that there are.

Why don't I just look up the parts that the website references and see if they're actually there?

*five minute interval while I look through my boyfriend's dad's bible for a couple of the posts by afformentioned website*

Yeppers, there they are.

Tell that to the Pope.

Hahaha, trust me, I'd like to say that and much much more to your pope.

Sorry, take a few college classes on the subjhect. I find it amaing how people on the internet are experts in everything.

Haha, sure... right after I finish my "unicorns 101" class this semester. By the bye, I'm not just a "person on the internet." Believe it or not, I have a physical form outside of this little box, a body and a life and everything. Shocking eh? Hopefully with this new-found information, you can finally stop calling me "some kid on the internet" (it gets a bit old).

[Virgil]

I disagree.



If you can think of any way any of those don't apply to war equally with all forms of violence, then please get back to me.

I thought Jesus was 100% unequivocal on the matter myself, but as you rightly note:

Yes, you're right. He is.

I'm just a simple soul who dares to presume that when an actual god says something, it would be sensible to comply.

Not that what Jesus said about war has any bearing on my own pacifism, I just enjoy the irony.

Very good. But let me remind you that of the three successful pacifist noted in this thread, all three were religiously affiliated and two were Christians.

By the way, I'm going to be away for the next two weeks after tomorrow, so I may not be able to respond for a bit.

[The Atheist]

But let me remind you that of the three successful pacifist noted in this thread, all three were religiously affiliated and two were Christians.

I knew that, which is why MLK is an ideal to use.

[mazHur]

Wars are a necessary Evil. Sometimes they are conducted in the name of religion sometimes for economic reasons. The Crusades were carried out both for the religious and pecuniary reasons which tended to make the clergy affluent stripping every Christian of his golden pence! Muslim wars or Jihads were primarily for religious reasons only but why would any Jihadi refuse the plunder?? Jihad was not killing the enemies but also aimed at getting killed during the war to acclaim shahadat (martyrdom-regarded as the noblest of divine awards) or to turn out successfully as Ghazi's ( ie victors as Saladin was). The concept of holy war is also envisaged in the Sikh teachings and it was for their warring spirit which motivated them to success in expanding their clime.

Here is an interesting article I just received in an email and it shed some light at comparative acts and real inlaid spirits of warfare as prescribed by the holy scriptures of two of the greatest religions of the world.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=124494788

[Paulclem]

Why are wars necessary? Is it the economic or the religious or both that make them so?

[Alexander III]

Why are wars necessary? Is it the economic or the religious or both that make them so?

The economic factors make war inevitable, contary to the saying "there are nor real winners in wars" there is always a winner in war. The crusades were masked as a holy war to get the plebs going along, but come on what on earth was holy about the sacking of constantinople?

[mazHur]

Why are wars necessary? Is it the economic or the religious or both that make them so?

Both. The struggle for Supremacy or Survival, satisfaction of Ego, Expansionism and Envy about 'Neighbors' resources.. show of Power

They say: Big or Small, White or Black, Fat or Thin---they all are 'thieves' in one way or the other!!

[JuniperWoolf]

Even animals war, and it's always for resources. Resources are often limited, so if creatures are pushed by want or lack, they'll often take what they need by force.

[mazHur]

Future wars will be for water...
Remember, the Suez canal 'wars' were for passage.
It's not always that wars are in the name of religion. But, ofcourse, religious wars are inevitable if someone, a people or a nation, meddles with the religious sentiments, things or places of another. The case in point is Israel, Palestine, creation of Baltic and Caucasian states....and brewing resentment in Chechnya, the Phillipines , Thailand, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, etc etc. and religious wars are not confined to any one religion. All and everywhere it is the same.

[mazHur]

Even animals war, and it's always for resources. Resources are often limited, so if creatures are pushed by want or lack, they'll often take what they need by force.

and.........Man is also a 'gregarious Animal', isn't it?? He is similar to animals except in matter of intellect and free will.

[togre]

Why are wars necessary? Is it the economic or the religious or both that make them so?

The nature of people make them inevitable. Until there is no single evil person in the world, willing to use force to attain his desire, there is a responsibility of the good and upright men to be prepared to defend the things and people that they are responsible for. Yes, this state of affairs is not perfect. No, this state of affairs will never change, this side of heaven, at least.

[Paulclem]

The nature of people make them inevitable. Until there is no single evil person in the world, willing to use force to attain his desire, there is a responsibility of the good and upright men to be prepared to defend the things and people that they are responsible for. Yes, this state of affairs is not perfect. No, this state of affairs will never change, this side of heaven, at least.

I would agree with you. Economics and religion don't cause wars. People with excuses based in economics and religion cause wars.

I think you're probably right that they will continue, but that's not to say - and you didn't say it I hasten to add - that nothing is inevitable. Particular wars are not necessarily inevitable, but there has to be the will to resist them. It is idealistic, but to just accept that wars happen is pessimistic in the extreme given the destruction and death they wreak. Once they get going - like anger from which they originate - they burn their way on and it seems nothing will stop them until the will develops to end them. There is always a point where they can be averted. Hindsight is lovely. Predicting that point and what would solve it is another matter though.