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Thread: The Poetry of Pablo Neruda

  1. #46
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by miyako73 View Post
    In case you don't know, Classics majors take Latin and Greek, at Harvard for instance, so they can use primary texts.

    Read lorcas word's again. Even gypsies use it.

    We use duwende as verb, adjective, and noun. I don't think you can say "I am being goblined or dwarfed or elved." Duwende just has not fixed equivalent in English.
    They do not read original Homer, get it? Homer influence is more due to latin translations than any greek. Classics major as you described are needing to learn literature.

    Read what I said again: Duende is to the major of spanish and portuguese world a imaginary being, a faery kind, etc. It is not the concept of Lorca (Which is neither a verb). The absence of equivalent in english is irrelevant ,It is not the limite literal translation that matters. If I have said "Kobold is a power of music, that came from inside" it would mean the same. You could not even need to translate the actual word, after all the power is not in "duende" but in Lorca principle. For god's sake, he quotes Goethe - GERMAN - to explain it.

    "Estos sonidos negros son el misterio, las raíces que se clavan en el limo que todos conocemos, que todos ignoramos, pero de donde nos llega lo que es sustancial en el arte. Sonidos negros dijo el hombre popular de España y coincidió con Goethe, que hace la definición del duende al hablar de Paganini, diciendo: "Poder misterioso que todos sienten y que ningún filósofo explica"."

    So, not only the argument that it can not be translated as there is no satisfactory word in goblin or elf because the duende would not be a magical being as english speakers think is failed as even your idea that the idea can not be translated is false by Lorca himself. Dante already, long ago, explained all writing have different levels of meaning, literal being one of them. The classification of translation as a failure because of literal meaning is a banalizaton of the very artistic power that all great writers have. You must go beyond the literal, beyong the fact the defintion of duende in english is not perfect (by the way, If you go to city to city, all spanish and portuguese speakers will give you different descriptions of duede, so even in the original, the deffinition is not perfect) to the real concept in Lorca poetry. It is must easier to explain about the "Glamour", "enchamentment", "aura", than the word eeire and this have not stop us to read Poe. I will ignore Gypsies using it. Gypsies either are just spanish talkers or their own language. The distinction is irrelevant.

    And Dwarf can be used as a verb.

  3. #48
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    Here's Erica Mena's reaction to Ralph Angel, the translator of Lorca's "Poem of the Deep Song," that succinctly expresses what I have in mind about translating poetry.

    "While performing an act of translation this complex, this steeped in history and rhythm, is heroic, Angel’s translation at times does not achieve the full expression of Lorca's poetry. No translation is devoid of the translator’s hand – it would be both impossible and undesirable – but there are times when Angel seems to overtake Lorca, and this becomes painfully obvious in the awkward English phrasing of some beautiful Spanish lines."


    The greatness of a piece of literature should be based on the original language it is written. Neruda's poems in Spanish will always stand out even without his name on them because they are well-written.

    His book of poems in English? I would not have read it if there was no Neruda on its cover.

    Duende has many meanings. If translated into English, at least three words can convey its slight meaning. There you go the wordiness.


    Yes dwarf can be used as a verb, as in to dwarf or be dwarfed but the meaning is its opposite, to tower or be towered.
    Last edited by miyako73; 07-27-2010 at 07:30 PM.

  4. #49
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    Where did you get this absurd notion?

    "They do not read original Homer, get it? Homer influence is more due to latin translations than any greek."

    Homeric epics, as what they are today, are based on the translation by Alexandrine gramarrians from archaic greek to hellenistic greek.

    Even ancient romans studied greek so they could read Homer.

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    Meh, do you understand there is no original Homer at all? The greek used by the alexandrine translators was already not original? And the actual status of Homer is stabilished in post medieval reading, basead on Latim. The first translations of greek were much latter.

    And it is irrelevant how many meaning Duende have. You insist in the point that Lorca definition is somehow untranslatable when he used a german to exemplify it. This totally blows up the argument (Lorca use of duende can not be expressed in 3 words in spanish, so it is only natural that english meaning is beyond 3 words as well). And: being unable to translate a single word is meaningless. Literatura is beyond literal meaning.

    And finally, the notion that translations do not add strength to the original is only possiblei f you despite literature. All variations we have today are dude the fact something is often gained and everytime you start to think it, Scherazade will blink and bring light.

  6. #51
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    you are reading too much wikipedia.

    The masterpiece existed so their must be a master. Whether his name was homer or not, we don't know, if we will ignore historical sources.

    Saying that there was no "homer" is tantamount to saying Iliad and the odyssey had no original author.

    The greeks of today's era believe he existed, and so was herodotus. It seems a mere doubt, to you, is truth. If you question Homer's existence, what is your evidence? Lack of biography? You should read Indian and Chinese classics that are peopled with characters that have no biographies.

    Understand my statement properly:

    "Duende has many meanings. If translated into English, at least three words can convey its slight meaning. There you go the wordiness.."

    That means in spanish, duende is enough, but if translated into english it could be a series of words such as "luck, charm, and spirit" that is still wanting.
    Last edited by miyako73; 07-27-2010 at 10:01 PM.

  7. #52
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    What JCamilo is saying is that the "original" Homer for a greater part of Western literary history was completely unknown. Virgil almost certainly never read the "original" but rather a later Alexandrine transcription. Dante and virtually the whole of the Italian Renaissance never read the original Greek Homer but rather Latin translations, although Homer in Greek did survive in the Byzantine Empire. For a work of literature to have any impact it must communicate with an audience and nothing attains the status of a canonical text if it cannot be translated. Gilgamesh and Beowulf would be prime examples. Both texts were written in a language that was already dead by the time they were discovered. If we assume that they cannot be translated, they are virtually worthless texts... having value to only a few rare scholars who can actually read the language... and even then we are talking of scholars whose entire grasp of a given language is based on a highly truncated body of literature. And yet Gilgamesh and Beowulf can and do speak to us... in the hands of a good translator.

    Again, translation will never be the same as the "original". I will not say it never will be as good because some translations are brilliant works of literature in their own rite... but they are not and never can be the same as the original. Much of what is lost is cultural... the manner in which a phrase mimics a well-known nursery rhyme, a well-known literary work, a popular saying or phrase taken from popular culture. But these are equally lost in time even to the native speaker. There are references and analogies in Chaucer and Shakespeare that the 21st century reader will be as unaware as if the work were written in an unknown foreign language. For this reason, translation... all literature that is far removed from the culture of the reader and translator is best served with a good amount of critical commentary and notes.

    Yet literature amazingly communicates in spite of the limitations of language, the failings of translation, the differences in cultures, etc... Dante, Homer, Virgil, Goethe, Tolstoy, Baudelaire, Tu Fu, Firdawsi, Cervantes, Whitman, Neruda, Borges, etc... continue to be read far beyond their native lands by readers who have no ability at all with the language of the "original". To suggest that only those who can read Homer, Virgil, Tu Fu, or Neruda in the original can really understand or appreciate it... that a work of literature cannot be translated... or (worse of all... an argument worthy of the sophomore classes on political science and how to behave is a politically correct manner) that the very act of translation amounts to a form of cultural colonization is absolutely ridiculous.

    I can appreciate Bach's Goldberg Variations played upon the piano... even though the original was written for harpsichord. I can appreciate a marvelous soprano singing an aria from Handel even though it was originally written for a castrato. My Chinese studio mate can appreciate the altarpieces of Titian and Michelangelo even though he lacks a deep understanding of the iconography and the Christian culture that produced these because the essential elements of art aren't found in such petty literal details. By the same token, I can appreciate a good translation of Homer or Goethe or Baudelaire or Firdawsi or Neruda in spite of the realization that no translation is ever going to be the same as the "original".
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by miyako73 View Post
    you are reading too much wikipedia.

    The masterpiece existed so their must be a master. Whether his name was homer or not, we don't know, if we will ignore historical sources.

    Saying that there was no "homer" is tantamount to saying Iliad and the odyssey had no original author.

    The greeks of today's era believe he existed, and so was herodotus. It seems a mere doubt, to you, is truth. If you question Homer's existence, what is your evidence? Lack of biography? You should read Indian and Chinese classics that are peopled with characters that have no biographies.

    Understand my statement properly:

    "Duende has many meanings. If translated into English, at least three words can convey its slight meaning. There you go the wordiness.."

    That means in spanish, duende is enough, but if translated into english it could be a series of words such as "luck, charm, and spirit" that is still wanting.
    That is amazing.
    Lets repeat, the majority of the world that uses the word duende have NO IDEA of Lorca concept. To them, a Duende is a mere gnome. And before you start with the pos-colonial anything, it is ridiculous too see anything in the world as special without seeing what Lorca added it.
    And more, your argument does not hold water or you just do not understand spanish of the text from Lorca himself when he clearly declare the definition of Duende was given by Goethe (who speak no spanish), so the argument that the definition that Lorca wanted is not translable is false, as his own definition was a translation from German.

    Now, if Stukles who certainly is a reader of Wikipedia could not teach you that it is not Wikipedia who tell anyone if Homer exists or not, but it is a long debatable field and unless it is a farse, any classical teacher would tell you that is true (and no, the Iliad preface I inherited from my greatfather already mentions the question, it is published in 1958 by Classics Jackson in Brazil, and funny, it was the Iliad I read years before Wikipedia existed), but you just made my day - the arguments are so dense but I would never imagine someone using Herodotus as undistupable source of (hi)story in the XXI century. It is very funny.

    Now, authors? You can not track the authorship of several works. Nobody knows who wrote the Old Testament, Gilgamesh Epic, Lazarido Tormes, etc. That - surprise - does not make the text to be unexistant as you claimed. The authorship question is rather irrelevant if you are going to discuss the work and its influence, specially if we are dealing with sources who date from oral tradition, where no register is found or it is trustworth. Really, what are those classical teachers doing during their classes? Snoring?

  9. #54
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    You are selectively reading my responses.

    Here's what lorca wrote about duende:

    All through Andalusia, from the rock of Jaén to the snail’s-shell of Cadiz, people constantly talk about the duende and recognise it wherever it appears with a fine instinct. That wonderful singer El Lebrijano, creator of the Debla, said: ‘On days when I sing with duende no one can touch me.’: the old Gypsy dancer La Malena once heard Brailowsky play a fragment of Bach, and exclaimed: ‘Olé! That has duende!’ but was bored by Gluck, Brahms and Milhaud. And Manuel Torre, a man who had more culture in his veins than anyone I’ve known, on hearing Falla play his own Nocturno del Generalife spoke this splendid sentence: ‘All that has dark sounds has duende.’ And there’s no deeper truth than that.
    Those dark sounds are the mystery, the roots that cling to the mire that we all know, that we all ignore, but from which comes the very substance of art. ‘Dark sounds’ said the man of the Spanish people, agreeing with Goethe, who in speaking of Paganini hit on a definition of the duende: ‘A mysterious force that everyone feels and no philosopher has explained.’
    So, then, the duende is a force not a labour, a struggle not a thought. I heard an old maestro of the guitar say: ‘The duende is not in the throat: the duende surges up, inside, from the soles of the feet.’ Meaning, it’s not a question of skill, but of a style that’s truly alive: meaning, it’s in the veins: meaning, it’s of the most ancient culture of immediate creation.
    This ‘mysterious force that everyone feels and no philosopher has explained’ is, in sum, the spirit of the earth, the same duende that scorched Nietzche’s heart as he searched for its outer form on the Rialto Bridge and in Bizet’s music, without finding it, and without seeing that the duende he pursued had leapt from the Greek mysteries to the dancers of Cadiz and the headless Dionysiac scream of Silverio’s siguiriya.
    So, then, I don’t want anyone to confuse the duende with the theological demon of doubt at whom Luther, with Bacchic feeling, hurled a pot of ink in Eisenach, nor the Catholic devil, destructive and of low intelligence, who disguised himself as a ***** to enter convents, nor the talking monkey carried by Cervantes’ Malgesi in his comedy of jealousies in the Andalusian woods.

  10. #55
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    Do you understand that I quoted it (not you, so I can not be selection what you said) in spanish? Or wait, you do not understand spanish?

  11. #56
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    I'm reposting it in English so you will know that even goethe has no definite explanation for it.

    You said:

    "And more, your argument does not hold water or you just do not understand spanish of the text from Lorca himself when he clearly declare the definition of Duende was given by Goethe (who speak no spanish), so the argument that the definition that Lorca wanted is not translable is false, as his own definition was a translation from German."

    "For god's sake, he quotes Goethe - GERMAN - to explain it."

    My response:

    Goethe did not talk about duende but the music of Pagannini. Understand the text properly. Lorca used goethe's idea for comparison.

    Translation from German? Get a dictionary and look for the meaning of translation.

    ‘Dark sounds’ said the man of the Spanish people, agreeing with Goethe, who in speaking of Paganini hit on a definition of the duende ' That line does not mean goethe has a definition for duende. You should also note the phrase "hit on a definition of the duende". The articale "a" is important.
    Last edited by miyako73; 07-28-2010 at 12:31 AM.

  12. #57
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    Sorry, but why are you quoting a translation in englsih to explain something in spanish to me?

  13. #58
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    lorca's essay on duende is not a poem. My problem with translation is with poetry.

  14. #59
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    So, you think the meaning of Duende can not be translated from english, unless it is in prose... albeit a poem is not something were straightword meaning is exactly relevant... Interesting...

  15. #60
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    Forgive me if my spanish is not right:

    "De la profundidad del pecho abierto
    a las curvas de las puntas de los dedos,
    cantando el aliento final y la nota triste,
    yo convulsiono dolorosamente en duende."

    Now, translate that into English without using duende as is.

    Yes, with prose I can write a pragraph explaining about duende without minding my long verbosity.
    Last edited by miyako73; 07-28-2010 at 07:42 AM.

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