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  1. #106
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Hmm, I think we'll have to agree to disagree - I think the briefness of the moment is embedded in the flesh of the poem - the poem is like a song, and everyone knows, all songs end - all poems in effect, die - the effect created cannot be sustained long after the poem has been been complete - the sensual impression of the landscape of moonlight - it is in the world of the sensual, but ultimately, the conclusion, the lines about weeping, referencing back to the lovers falling into the spell of the moonlight to me seems as something transient. To me the moonlight is a moment - a capturing of the essence of a feeling contained within the poem, I can't see that as something sustained - to me the poem gestures toward a loneliness and a sort of deep loss at the fleeting time - the illusion seems dependent on its shattering, if that makes any sense.

    The poem ultimately gestures to a sense of loss, of fragility, and also to a sense of pain - I think that is dependent on a sort of unfulfilllment, a rupture in being caught in this emotional ponzi-scheme. In truth it reminds me a lot of Jean Rhys stories above everything, except rather than being ironic, it loses itself in the moment
    Last edited by JBI; 07-25-2010 at 04:46 PM.

  2. #107
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Since I've never really read Verlaine before, i've been trying to read in chronological order to absorb his style and themes. I'll get to this poem in a couple of days. I'm enjoying the book so far.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  3. #108
    Of Subatomic Importance Quark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Hmm, I think we'll have to agree to disagree - I think the briefness of the moment is embedded in the flesh of the poem - the poem is like a song, and everyone knows, all songs end - all poems in effect, die - the effect created cannot be sustained long after the poem has been been complete
    But poem follows poem. This is a collection. The only real conclusion we reach is at the very end when the lovers are ghosts. That's the life represented outside the poem: death, nothingness.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    - the sensual impression of the landscape of moonlight - it is in the world of the sensual, but ultimately, the conclusion, the lines about weeping, referencing back to the lovers falling into the spell of the moonlight to me seems as something transient. To me the moonlight is a moment - a capturing of the essence of a feeling contained within the poem,
    No, I don't disagree with any of that. As I was saying above, I think you've got exactly the right notion of the tension between illusion and reality. What I'm saying, though, is that there's nothing outside of illusion in the collection. It's not as if the characters are going to wake up to a morning where they accept death and human limitations. Rather, we're just going to get another poem. And that's what happens in the collection until the lovers are ghosts. Even then, they still dream--only retrospectively.
    "Par instants je suis le Pauvre Navire
    [...] Par instants je meurs la mort du Pecheur
    [...] O mais! par instants"

    --"Birds in the Night" by Paul Verlaine (1844-1896). Join the discussion here: http://www.online-literature.com/for...5&goto=newpost

  4. #109
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    Before I comment on the poem I just posted, I want to say something on Moonlight.

    Quark and JBI have summed up nicely the poem, however I want to add a small something.

    In the first stanza the dancers masked, their masks and ornate costumes are Material which we use to color life so to say, to forget death, yet under the masks, the Material, they are sad, as the concept of death lingers, tainting all else. The scene of the poem, night, darkness reminds, all of death. Then the question of why the fountain sobs with ecstasy ? The fountain like the moon, do not fear death, or more accurately they do not know death. After reading the poem I felt that the concept Verlaine instilled in me was that life and beauty are an illusion, an illusion, a mirage if you will, of death. I may be utterly wrong here, this was just how I felt after having read it.

  5. #110
    Original Poster Buh4Bee's Avatar
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    I have been following this thread and I ordered the book. I hope to participate more once it arrives.

    My reaction toward Verlaine as a “person” is that he was an untter SOB. As a poet, I have no opinion yet.

    Given that I have no context and I didn’t pick this up on the thread, who does he write this poem for, Rimbaud? Verlaine sees this love interest/lover as an individual with a sad inner world.

    Even while they sing, all in minor key,
    of love triumphant and life’s careless boon,
    they seem in doubt of their felicity

    This love that is between Verlaine and this person seems to be fleeting, brief and beautiful like the melancholic light of the moon. What of the soul and the notion of death?

    Your soul is like a painter’s landscape

    Is death the end of this night, this love? Is anxiety being expressed over the possible loss of this love? Is it mutual or is Verlaine oberving the state of his love’s soul from a corner? I agree that everything that is in the poem is juxaposed to everything outside the poem. It is like watching a fantastic scene, an illusion, a beautiful night that will soon end.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander III View Post
    May I suggest the next poem, should lead to some nice discussion, Birds In The Night



    You were not over-patient with me, dear;
    This want of patience one must rightly rate:
    You are so young! Youth ever was severe
    And variable and inconsiderate!

    You had not all the needful kindness, no;
    Nor should one be amazed, unhappily:
    You're very young, cold sister mine, and so
    'Tis natural you should unfeeling be!

    Behold me therefore ready to forgive;
    Not gay, of course! but doing what I can
    To bear up bravely,—deeply though I grieve
    To be, through you, the most unhappy man.


    II
    But you will own that I was in the right
    When in my downcast moods I used to say
    That your sweet eyes, my hope, once, and delight!
    Were come to look like eyes that will betray.

    It was an evil lie, you used to swear,
    And your glance, which was lying, dear, would flame,—
    Poor fire, near out, one stirs to make it flare!—
    And in your soft voice you would say, "Je t'aime!"

    Alas! that one should clutch at happiness
    In sense's, season's, everything's despite!—
    But 'twas an hour of gleeful bitterness
    When I became convinced that I was right!



    III
    And wherefore should I lay my heart-wounds bare?
    You love me not,—an end there, lady mine;
    And as I do not choose that one shall dare
    To pity,—I must suffer without sign.

    Yes, suffer! For I loved you well, did I,—
    But like a loyal soldier will I stand
    Till, hurt to death, he staggers off to die,
    Still filled with love for an ungrateful land.

    O you that were my Beauty and my Own,
    Although from you derive all my mischance,
    Are not you still my Home, then, you alone,
    As young and mad and beautiful as France?


    IV
    Now I do not intend—what were the gain?—
    To dwell with streaming eyes upon the past;
    But yet my love which you may think lies slain,
    Perhaps is only wide awake at last.

    My love, perhaps,—which now is memory!—
    Although beneath your blows it cringe and cry
    And bleed to will, and must, as I foresee,
    Still suffer long and much before it die,—

    Judges you justly when it seems aware
    Of some not all banal compunction,
    And of your memory in its despair
    Reproaching you, "Ah, fi! it was ill done!"


    V
    I see you still. I softly pushed the door—
    As one o'erwhelmed with weariness you lay;
    But O light body love should soon restore,
    You bounded up, tearful at once and gay.

    O what embraces, kisses sweet and wild!
    Myself, from brimming eyes I laughed to you
    Those moments, among all, O lovely child,
    Shall be my saddest, but my sweetest, too.

    I will remember your smile, your caress,
    Your eyes, so kind that day,—exquisite snare!—
    Yourself, in fine, whom else I might not bless,
    Only as they appeared, not as they were.


    VI
    I see you still! Dressed in a summer dress,
    Yellow and white, bestrewn with curtain-flowers;
    But you had lost the glistening laughingness
    Of our delirious former loving hours.

    The eldest daughter and the little wife
    Spoke plainly in your bearing's least detail,—
    Already 'twas, alas! our altered life
    That stared me from behind your dotted veil.

    Forgiven be! And with no little pride
    I treasure up,—and you, no doubt, see why,—
    Remembrance of the lightning to one side
    That used to flash from your indignant eye!


    VII
    Some moments, I'm the tempest-driven bark
    That runs dismasted mid the hissing spray,
    And seeing not Our Lady through the dark
    Makes ready to be drowned, and kneels to pray.

    Some moments, I'm the sinner at his end,
    That knows his doom if he unshriven go,
    And losing hope of any ghostly friend,
    Sees Hell already gape, and feels it glow.

    Oh, but! Some moments, I've the spirit stout
    Of early Christians in the lion's care,
    That smile to Jesus witnessing, without
    A nerve's revolt, the turning of a hair!


    This poem was written while Verlaine was in England with Rimbaud, and the subject matter deals with his wife. Poetically I do not think it one of Verlain's greats, the two poems we have perviously discussed are far more beautiful. However I chose this poem as unlike the other two poems it gives great insight into who Verlaine was and his mind.

    The poem starts of immediately establishing that his Wife is the one at fault and yet he forgives her as he knows she bears the stupidity of youth. If we compare this to the historical truth , there is alot of irony. Verlaine was a alcoholic who would frequently get drunk, come home and beat her, or occasionally set her hair on fire. To make matter even worse he abandoned her and their daughter for his romantic relation with Rimbaud. Trough all of this however Verlaine seems convinced that he is an innocent man and it is he who forgives her.

    His comparison to her and france is also interesting. It shows how Verlaine felt of his country, he loved her, yet found her stupid and mad. Ironically he would turn mad himself, well more mad, soon after having written this poem.

  7. #112
    Original Poster Buh4Bee's Avatar
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    My favorite part of this selection is when Verlaine compares Mathilda to France.

    Yes, suffer! For I loved you well, did I,—
    But like a loyal soldier will I stand
    Till, hurt to death, he staggers off to die,
    Still filled with love for an ungrateful land.

    O you that were my Beauty and my Own,
    Although from you derive all my mischance,
    Are not you still my Home, then, you alone,
    As young and mad and beautiful as France?

    He talks about loving her like a patriot soldier “staggering off to die, still filled with love for an ungrateful land.” He has left her as he has literally left France. His love now dead, and it was like a long drawn out lethal wound. Although beautiful, she was young. Does her immaturity add any extra weight to Verlaine’s unhappiness?

  8. #113
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    I think the problem Verlaine had with her is that he was in love with her beauty, not her mind, her mind was rather simple I assume, thus it did not stimulate him or provide that joi de vivre which Rimbaud gave him, she was banality and sanity, something Verlaine did not care much for at that point in his life. To put it bluntly (in my opinion) he would sleep with her, then look over her and think to himself, ok time to get out of here, very far away, with Rimabud, time for life, for fun, must escape.

  9. #114
    Original Poster Buh4Bee's Avatar
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    A3- It makes sense that Verlaine loved her as a creature of beauty and even for amusement’s sake. Verlaine must have been extremely superficial. Who can say he love Rimbaud solely for his intellect, after all he was, what we consider in the States “jail-bait” at 17?

  10. #115
    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
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    I don't think you can really say that his feelings for Mathilde were more or less superficial than what he felt for Rimbaud. He seems to have been a person ruled by impetuous decisions. What we can say is that Verlaine probably cared about Rimbaud's poetry, he was primarily responsible for promoting Rimbaud after his death and was responsible for publishing a lot of his work.

    Edit: Rimbaud was pretty though


  11. #116
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I think the problem Verlaine had with her is that he was in love with her beauty, not her mind, her mind was rather simple I assume, thus it did not stimulate him or provide that joi de vivre which Rimbaud gave him, she was banality and sanity, something Verlaine did not care much for at that point in his life. To put it bluntly (in my opinion) he would sleep with her, then look over her and think to himself, ok time to get out of here, very far away, with Rimabaud, time for life, for fun, must escape.

    Verlaine seems to have been quite complex and conflicted... with opposing desires. On one side he wished for the domestic bliss of a middle class marriage and probably the position in academia. Yet he could not control his wild side... his drinking and endless sexual escapades with women and men. When things would get out of hand, he could turn contrite... even turn to the church and become the most humble of believers... and then run off for wild nights of drink, drugs, and debauchery with Rimbaud across Europe.

    It is interesting that the poets largely blamed Rimbaud for debauching Verlaine and leading to his downfall... especially after his thinly veiled criticism of Verlaine in A Season in Hell. But I suspect that had it not been for Rimbaud, Verlaine would have still had plenty of personal demons to assure his downfall.
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  12. #117
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    Pictures Of Verlaine





    Here is Verlaine, he had a rather babyish innocent face as well, if he had some hair and less beard, he would have been a very handsome man in my opinion.


    Verlaine in my opinion was simply a man who required constant change. He would experience his wife then desperately thirst for something different, where by he would experience Rimbaud and then begin to desperately crave his wife again. The same can be said of his life he would crave an honest bourgeois life and then grow to despise it and crave madness, it was an endless cycle of change, which would rule the course of his life. He constantly required the new new.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #118
    Original Poster Buh4Bee's Avatar
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    "Rimbaud was pretty though."
    Agreed, he was attractive.

    I agree that we can't really know at what level Verlaine attached himself to Mathilde or Rimbaud. But to focus on the poetry, he clearly cared for her or he wouldn't have written this piece. He mentions several memories of her "I see you still. I softly pushed the door-" It seems he must have been in great pain and was trying to rid myself of guilt by means of slicing her from his heart.

    "But 'twas an hour of gleeful bitterness
    When I became convinced that I was right."

    Verlaine was suffering, "I must suffer without sign- Yes suffer! For I loved you well, did I". So it may have been a very deep attachment to Mathilda, who can tell?

  14. #119
    Asa Nisi Masa mayneverhave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    [COLOR="DarkRed"]

    Verlaine seems to have been quite complex and conflicted... with opposing desires. On one side he wished for the domestic bliss of a middle class marriage and probably the position in academia. Yet he could not control his wild side... his drinking and endless sexual escapades with women and men. When things would get out of hand, he could turn contrite... even turn to the church and become the most humble of believers... and then run off for wild nights of drink, drugs, and debauchery with Rimbaud across Europe.
    This is apparent when you juxtapose Verlaine's collection, La bonne chanson, with the later Romances sans paroles. The former celebrates the bliss of marriage and home life, while the later, which is considered his most consistent collection (and features the "Birds in the Night" poem we are considering), was written while traveling across Europe with Rimbaud.

    Verlaine, as the Oxford translator puts it, was a man driven by contradictory motives. Apparently anytime he took himself to one extreme (either his love for his wife, or his love for a debauched existence), he would swerve to the reverse.

  15. #120
    Original Poster Buh4Bee's Avatar
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    Thank you, this helps to clarify Verlaine's ambivalence for me.

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