I have to say Angel. He's a wimp.
I have to say Angel. He's a wimp.
The only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it... I can resist everything but temptation. Oscar Wilde
Definitely Angel. Apart from being a monumental hypocrite he singlehandedly manages to epitomise the meaning of the Victorian sexual double standard.
Dislike Angel more, for his wimpishness. Ironically Alec is more faithful, even though he caused the misfortune in the first place.
Hmmm....That is a tricky one....On the one hand, Alec does do the obvious despicable act of raping Tess in the first place. This consequently leads to pretty much everything else and Tess's death. Alec is truly a hateful character.
On the other hand, if Angel hadn't left her to go to Brazil once he found out about Alec, then Tess would have been safe, she wouldn't have killed Alec and therefore, would not have murdered Alec, and would have not have subsequently been hanged herself. However, Angel is a product of his own time, where his hypocrisy and double standard attitude is perfectly acceptable, though, obviously a modern reader would find this behaviour outrageous, contemporary readers would not have condemned Angel for his actions.
Though I think we're meant to dislike Angel for leaving Tess, I believe his intentions are much more honourable, and he genuinely cares for Tess. Alec is the true villain and he ultimately leads to Tess destruction.
Knowledge is Power
I think that's a sweeping generalisation. Angel is meant to be pure and of good faith. I don't think contemporary readers would have thought much of his romp or his lack of Christian forgiveness, and I don't think Hardy's suggesting it's okay for Angel to do that because it's just what men did back then.Originally Posted by BookWorm_x
I tend to agree with that. I think that Hardy put enough clues in his work(s) to consider it probable that Angel - who was maybe a product of his time where thise kind of double standard was deemed acceptable - was meant to be an example of what injustices happened in that society.
Teaching simple peasants that one can baptise at any time and with any water and then refusing a baby to be burried in sacred ground because Tess baptised it herself?
Having someone leave because his wife is not a virgin, not being a virgin himself. Seriously, you love her or you do not. You certainly do not abandon her.
Then have the same guy who made a woman illegitimately pregnant turn into a raving preacher who then cannot resist simple temptation. Shows you how hollow all that bible stuff is, really. It is no more than painting on a wall (literally evoked in the novel). Actually I seem to remember that Alec made Tess swear on a stone somewhere that she wasn't going to tempt him. As if that largely depends on the other. Eve also ate from the tree because of the serpent. Yeah right, she took the decision.
One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.
"Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)
It's better to evaluate Angel's character separately, not as a comparison with Alec, because then the argument is essentially "Alec raped her and Angel didn't rape her. Rape is horrible therefore Alec is the worse character." That argument doesn't give any insight into either of the characters.
Angel was meant to be Tess' salvation, someone who wouldn't subscribe to the hypocrisy of the age. However, he abandons her because he cannot reconcile himself with the idea that she is not chastity incarnate. Alec recognises Tess' sensuality- he takes advantage of it at a time when she cannot understand it, but through the 'courting', she realises her sensuality. The tragedy is that she realises it too early.
Personally, I think that Tess, Angel and even Alec have been strongly influenced by their parents- sometimes in ways they could do nothing about.
I suppose I dislike Alec more because Tess did. Alec took advantage of her, made her pregnant and spolit her chances of happiness. Angel was hypocritical, pharisaical and unbending when he learns Tess is not a virgin, but if Alec hadn't ruined her, those characteristics would not have come out. The marriage to Angel could have been happy. A marriage to Alec would not.
Alec reminded me of Rhett Butler, so I just checked my book shelf, and voila!
They have striking resemblance, in appearance and character, they even have the same kind of history of wrong doings. Rhett is described, swarthy completion, bold eyes, full lips, tall and musculin, and has a mustache. He is a oppotunist, passionate, and vile, also more aggressive and sensual. ( he also drinks and buy prostitutes.. Yak!)
When Scarlet first met him, she heard his rumor, he took a girl for buggy riding, and they didn't come home till next day. He refused to marry her because he didn't do anything to her. Her brother challenged a duel and Rhett killed him. Scarlet asked her friend if the girl had his baby, and she said no but "she was ruined just the same."
Interesting, isn't it? Maybe, Alec could have been Rhett's inspiration. And Ashley Wilkes could be Angel?
He is also a tragic character who pursue a woman who never return his love. ( however Scarlet realizes her love for him in the end but tad too late)
He also forcibly made love with his wife. ( and she liked it. This definitely reflects Mitchell's fantasy....some women like sexually aggressive men)
Margaret Mitchell is a woman, and Rhett is her romantic hero. For women, and as a wonan myself, I think Alec's character is more appealing than Angel's.
Last edited by Wayne Jr; 01-28-2013 at 09:52 AM.
Great post.
[QUOTE=kelby_lake;976681]It's better to evaluate Angel's character separately, not as a comparison with Alec, because then the argument is essentially "Alec raped her and Angel didn't rape her. Rape is horrible therefore Alec is the worse character." That argument doesn't give any insight into either of the characters.
Angel was meant to be Tess' salvation, someone who wouldn't subscribe to the hypocrisy of the age. However, he abandons her because he cannot reconcile himself with the idea that she is not chastity incarnate. Alec recognises Tess' sensuality- he takes advantage of it at a time when she cannot understand it, but through the 'courting', she realises her sensuality.
You have a point. I totally agree.
Her fall was a beginning of her tragedy, however, as well as her sexual awakening. She changed from " simple girl to complex women", became "a fine creature".
I have only seen the film of GWTW a few times, but now you've come to mention it, those two set-ups definitely sound similar
I'm not sure about Ashley Wilkes, but as I said, I've only seen the film. Was he also a bit of a nonsensical doormat in the novel or not? In the film he seems a little scared of Scarlet (wo wouldn't be). Rhett is almost the only man who's really worthy of her, so to say, with all the bad stuff that appens afterwards because of that worthiness, of course.
One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.
"Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)
If the question means who did greater harm to Tess, it's almost impossible to say. In the plot, Alec destroyed her reputation to the man she loved. Angel rejected her after he succeeded in becoming the love of Tess' life. Alec became a villain because he acted out his essential self. Angel became a villain by stifling his genuine nature to serve the self-repression and social standards he was taught.
A question related to the greater villain is what was Hardy trying to get across to his readers with the two characters. My take is that Alec was a largely an agent of the industrial revolution wreaking destruction of Tess' world. His money gave him ultimate power over the rural, poor working folks who had no defenses. Angel was a representation of Victorian social standards that had been molded by Victorian clergy into a destructive, repressive and punishing discipline. Alec was a self-made villain enabled by industrial revolution wealth while Angel was instructed and mangled into rejecting his better nature and his ideal mate. Alec's character and behavior couldn't be changed . Angel became a better person in rejecting some of his self-repression.
Both Angel and Alec were exhibits of the hazards facing the rural laboring class, especially the young women. Neither Tess nor any of her friends managed to escape ruin.
Without a doubt I dislike Angel more. I don't believe that Alec raped Tess, I think it was a seducation that she came to regret. I also do not believe that Angel really loved Tess the women, but Tess the ideal.
I think this is true to an extent but bear in mind that Tess says that her mother never told her anything of men. The extent of her sexual knowledge was not that of a woman who could happily consent. I believe that she liked the seduction because it allowed her to experiment with her sexuality but when it came to a literal seduction, she became nervous and realised that she may have 'led him on'. Because we don't know how much Tess actually knows about sexual matters, she might not know anything about sex at all- or at least, a minimal amount- therefore the experience might have been frightening for her.
I think he proves his true colours at the end when he returns to her, but his weakness is that he cannot see past orthodoxy. He imagines himself to be exempt from Christian hypocrisy whereas actually he completely subscribes to it.I also do not believe that Angel really loved Tess the women, but Tess the ideal.
Kelby, you're insightful on Angel. Angel imagines himself enlightened, but he surrenders his marriage and the woman he loves to conformance with hypocritical and unjust social norms even as they make him miserable.
If we're going to address the greatest villain in this novel, shouldn't Joan be considered? Joan shifts responsibility for the Derbyville household to Tess, who's not ready. Joan set Tess up to be deflowered in hopes Alec's family would support them. Joan understood Alec well enough and was virtually complicit in the Chase scene seduction. With Tess' demise, largely the result of Joan, we can assume Joan next planned on sacrificing Liza-Lu and eventually all her daughters.
Even if Angel inflicted greater misery on Tess than Alec, it seems Angel was the better person. He tried to enlighten his thinking and open his mind to advanced thoughts. By comparison, Alec was dedicated to his selfish pleasures and showed no inclination or capacity to be a better person. Angel certainly falls short as a worthy lover of Tess and his marriage to Tess was almost surely destined for unhappiness, but ultimately his character is struggling toward advancement and gives us hope.
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