Is an Untrue Belief that Inspires Good Better than a Truth?

[SilentMute]

I have been debating this for some time, ever since I watched an episode of The Simpsons. In this episode, Lisa Simpson finds out that the beloved town founder had been a pirate. When she tries to enlighten people, they become hostile and don't listen. Finally, she gets proof--but then she decides not to reveal it because she realizes that the belief in the town founder inspired good in people--and that was more valuable than the truth.

Generally, we are taught to believe that it is always better to embrace the truth--harsh and ugly as it often is. Believing lies is short-term gain, long-term lost.

However, as I get older, I can appreciate how difficult it is to live by truths. As I've evaluated my beliefs and my life, this old question has came up. I don't like using religion as an example, but it is the only example I can think of where my beliefs might be stronger than my love of facts.

I believe in reincarnation. I don't believe in it because, after reviewing other religions, I thought this the most likely explanation. I believe in it because it appeals to me the most, pure and simple. It appeals to me because:
1) I'm a late bloomer, so I like the idea that if I don't accomplish everything I wish to in this life, there is always the next one.
2) It keeps me from offing myself during hard times because I believe that I'll only have to repeat it again if I don't face it in this life.
3) It makes it easier to stay on the moral path because I believe that if I commit a wrong, I'll pay for it in the next life or in this one.
4) It helps me accept death of loved ones because I believe they will live again and I might see them in another life.

So, what if a scientist tomorrow came up with definite proof that reincarnation didn't exist? I have to admit, I would probably reject the proof. Not very enlightened of me--but it takes a very strong person to live by truths totally. I don't know if I'm that strong...particularly when it comes to horrible things in life that thankfully I have not experienced first hand. What if your child is raped, tortured, and killed? The killer was a sociopath whose brain is abnormal, and parents can't totally protect their children no matter how much they try--that is a truth. How much comfort would it give to a parent though? Religion often is better at comforting grief--it says the person's soul lives on, that there is a powerful force that will bring justice, etc.

So, if a belief system does good--and it doesn't necessarily have to be religious in nature (like in the episode, is it better that people believe a lie about a famous person if it inspires them to do good things or to know the truth)--is it better than a truth?

[keilj]

No. I firmly, firmly believe in the statement that "the truth will set you free"

I think an untruth, even if it inspires good, is ultimately unhealthy (emotionally, psychologically) - and that unhealthiness will manifest itself at some point

In other words, I think compromising the truth - no matter how innocuous it might seem, or no matter what the reason - is one of the biggest things we can do wrong in life


other than love, I think the truth is the biggest thing in life that we must hold to

1) I'm a late bloomer, so I like the idea that if I don't accomplish everything I wish to in this life, there is always the next one.

I'm a late bloomer as well - and I get quite down about it sometimes

these songs give me a little bit of solace about it - or at least let me know that I'm not the only one who feels this way:

http://www.brucespringsteen.net/songs/ThisHardLand.html


http://www.brucespringsteen.net/song...fulReward.html

[NikolaiI]

Well Nietzsche said something quite like this too. In the first chapter of the first part of Beyond Good & Evil (Prejudices of the Philosophers) he asks the very same question. He asks the value of truth, "Granted we will truth: why not rather untruth? And uncertainty? Even ignorance?"

This rattled around in my mind for years... and a while ago I came up with the answer to his question. It only makes sense if you accept that ignorance is like illusion - illusion is like a dream; truth is like the waking up from the dream. Therefore, why not rather untruth is answered this way: untruth is illusion, dream. The reason we yearn for truth is the same as when we have slept for too long. We develop restlessness which gradually increases until it is something akin to panic: we want truth because we need reality.

Now, the second thing is; is it really so common that the truth is harsh and cold, or is this an illusion pushed upon us by people who have given up too soon? The Indian philosopher Swami Vivekananda once formulated 15 laws of life which sort of encapsulated his system of thought. The second one is

2. It's Your Outlook That Matters: It is our own mental attitude, which makes the world what it is for us. Our thoughts make things beautiful, our thoughts make things ugly. The whole world is in our own minds. Learn to see things in the proper light.

(I recently posted the 15 on a thread I started about him, which you can see here if you're intersted - http://online-literature.com/forums/...ad.php?t=45634)

It's just one way of expressing it, and it's an idea which runs through and shows in the thought of many philosophers. Swami Vivekananada also says that one should only speak from one's experience; to speak of the soul if one has not perceived it is like lying, the same is true of speaking about God if one hasn't perceived God. Though he wrote about God, he also said it is better to be an outspoken atheist than a hypocrite.

I've seen a lot of arguments about all these topics and been in a few; and realized eventually that it was not really for me. My joy lies elsewhere.

Now the last thing I'll say in this post is that from Plato to Plotinus to Black Elk, to Laotzu, to Alan Watts, and to Sri Aurobindo (another Indian philosopher who was inspired by Swami Vivekananda's teachings) and many others; the greatest minds and philosophers of our race have been valued the qualities of hope and trust, among others. Alan Watts explained it this way; if you are swimming, and you try grasp and grasp at the water, you will sink. But if you relax, lean back, then you will float. That is what faith is. It's getting a feel for the water, the reality around us, and by trusting it we float; grasping and defending is not faith.

Lastly - what is truth, what is real? This is what I was going to say is common to all of the names I listed: they all believed there is a spiritual reality. I will just give a couple of quotes.

This one is from Black Elk Speaks, the 7 chapter;

Crazy Horse's father was my father's cousin, and there were no chiefs in our family before Crazy Horse; but there were holy men; and he became a chief because of the power he got in a vision when he was a boy. When I was a man, my father told me something about that vision. Of course he did not know all of it; but he said that Crazy Horse dreamed and went into the world where there is nothing but the spirits of all things. That is the real world that is behind this one, and everything we see here is something like a shadow from that world. He was on his horse in that world, and the horse and himself on it and the trees and the grass and the stones and everything were made of spirit, and nothing was hard, and everything seemed to float. His horse was standing still there, and yet it danced around like a horse made only of shadow, and that is how he got his name, which does not mean that his horse was crazy or wild, but that in his vision it danced around in that queer way.

And R.W. Emerson, in his essay "The Over-Soul," mentions, "From within or from behind, a light shines through us upon things, and makes us aware that we are nothing, but the light is all." Of course we are not the first to say that spirit and light are the reality. The seeming difficulty lies in the rareness of its perception. And yet to those who doubt for all kinds of reasons.. I've always wanted to give solid, completely logical reasoning to them. One is - everything in the universe is energy and matter; the source of all life on earth is the Sun - light - and I wonder, can anything be of different nature than its source?

Of course, I have gone a little bit different way than you were asking and if it was too abstract I apologize. To get the ideal life, for our evolution to go on, we have to tackle very real problems like making the world a safer place, and to work on relieving suffering.

The only reason I post all of these things is that I think there is a lot of truth out there... and I think truth is usually a bright thing, rather than unpleasant. Truth is an individual thing and everyone's life and journey is their own. Everyone says words are inadequate to express the highest experiences, and just because of this doesn't they are no invalid - in fact validation is not necessary.

Two last thoughts; one good poem about all of this is called the Hsin Hsin Ming, by Seng Ts'an, the 6th patriarch of Ch'an Buddhism, or "Inscription on Trust in the Mind." If you can find a good translation it is worthwhile.

I have also experienced some of these things.. and when I agree with Sufism's assertion and Vedantism's assertion that God is the only reality, I do so with the memory of a similar experience. It is thus that assertions of beatific experiences of reality such as the Beatles'

Sounds of laughter shades of life
are ringing through my open ears
exciting and inviting me
Limitless undying love which
shines around me like a million suns
It calls me on and on across the universe

I do not think are conflicting with truth. Idealism and realism are poorly termed because idealism is connected with realism.

I have a friend, Cris, from childhood; who used to be a Christian. And I was an atheist until I was 17 and became agnostic. I now regret - when we were kids I would question his faith and I considered it highly illogical - as do all the atheists on this forum and who live today. And then one day Cris became an atheist, and since, I've enjoyed discussing all these things with him... I hope he enjoys it too. But I know that these events play out in their natural way.

But I am glad that I found what is real... I do agree with Black Elk, with Crazy Horse, as I had experiences akin to theirs.

The message of real mystics is this; and it is the same from Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and others - why it is the same is because there is only one reality. It's that there's never any reason to doubt, worry, or fear.

There's no final truth or end because it's never over. The meaning of the dance is the dance.

No. I firmly, firmly believe in the statement that "the truth will set you free"

Yeah! And I write too much, simple is better.

[dizzydoll]

It's just one way of expressing it, and it's an idea which runs through and shows in the thought of many philosophers. Swami Vivekananada also says that one should only speak from one's experience; to speak of the soul if one has not perceived it is like lying, the same is true of speaking about God if one hasn't perceived God. Though he wrote about God, he also said it is better to be an outspoken atheist than a hypocrite.

The meaning of the dance is the dance.



Yeah! And I write too much, simple is better.

Nicely put, the meaning of the dance is the dance.

Firstly you dont write too much. Secondly even tho you touched on the meaning of words, its pretty insignificant because irrespective of the word describing what we feel they will always fare poorly when it comes to the spiritual realm.

I agree we should ONLY speak from our own experience and therefore I will come back to the word Soul because we have no other to describe what I am about to say -- except "life force", might do the trick. But what am I doing, I have taken the emphasis off the issue and placed it on "the word". This is how ridiculous arguments begin. I mean Soul/Life Force are just words which shouldnt be analysed so deeply.

So let me call it "life force" to keep my comment in perspective. In my experience I saw my dog's [Rebbecca] life force leave her body when I had to put her to sleep. It looked like I was looking through "a huge blob of water" if you will about the size of one of those exercise balls or about the size of a television. So I am not lying about that and yes I prefer referring to it as Rebbecca's Soul. God is an entirely different subject and is not the same as a Soul but is a Life Force... see where I am going, words simply cannot describe what our spiritual nature intended us to learn.

There are other people who I trust who saw Souls who have passed on, like my grandmother saw my great grandmother at the end of her bed one night. I believe her even tho I cannot speak of her experience.

But back to the OP, the truth. There is no truth at this time, we havent the knowledge to speak of any truth for now but whatever we perceive our truth to be, that we must stick to at all costs. Its as case of being true to ourselves and being ethical in our approach to our moral standards.

So I stand by the Truth even if it isnt the Full Truth today, until we discover the Real Truth tomorrow.

Is an Untrue Belief that Inspires Good Better than a Truth?

But your question is ambiguous so I am not sure I chose the correct answer on the poll. Neither science nor religion has the whole truth at the moment so all of us, in point of fact, believe what inspires us in the truth as we have come to know it. So it seems I should have said Yes in the poll where in fact I said No.

[MUMUKSHA]

No. I firmly, firmly believe in the statement that "the truth will set you free"

I think an untruth, even if it inspires good, is ultimately unhealthy (emotionally, psychologically) - and that unhealthiness will manifest itself at some point

In other words, I think compromising the truth - no matter how innocuous it might seem, or no matter what the reason - is one of the biggest things we can do wrong in life


other than love, I think the truth is the biggest thing in life that we must hold to

I completely agree with it. And I also agree with Nik and dizzydoll, as they say that one should not speak of anything that one hasn't actually experienced, so I would not venture into anything related to mysticism or mystical experiences. But truth and untruth is something we inevitably come to experience. And that's why I'm so certain that truth is the only answer. If I ever felt untruth would be better in any given situation, eventually it proved to be the contrary every time. So from experience and a genuine conviction I would always endorse truth.

[Gladys]

A subtle response to the question comes from Fyodor Dostoevsky. He once asserted that even if it were proved that Jesus Christ never existed, he would believe in Christ.

His philosophical progenitor, the Christian Soren Kierkegaard, never thought it worth even considering the reality of either Jesus or God. His fictional counterpart, Henrik Ibsen's Brand, lives radically as an individual naked before his omnipotent God without for a moment questioning divine existence, which is only confirmed at the very end when an almighty avalanche obliterates Pastor Brand and his sole acolyte: a mad gypsy, old, female and outcast.

[TheFifthElement]

It's an interesting question SilentMute. I guess before it can be answered you need to come to a landing on what 'truth' is. I find truth, as a concept, to be virtually non-existent and what people refer to as 'truth' to be nothing more than degrees of belief.

[Gladys]

I find...what people refer to as 'truth' to be nothing more than degrees of belief.

Or, 'truth' is nothing less than degrees of belief lived out in each moment.

[TheFifthElement]

Or, 'truth' is nothing less than degrees of belief lived out in each moment.

Yes, precisely

[soundofmusic]

Yes....
We see it everyday in the political world, the religious world, the stock market...
People need hope to keep momentum. I am reminded of some of the greatest times in my lifetime; and I recall that they were also times when we believed that we were powerful, that we were right, that we would soon conquer space and the oceans, feed the hungry and cure disease...
Whether it was true or not was academic; the belief was what brought us toward the dream..

[Cunninglinguist]

What is the objective but the collective subjective? But surely what makes something True lies beyond human experience. We certainly know that geocentrism is untrue, although this used to hold much verisimilitude. There's a distinction to be made between what we think is true and what is actually True.

[SilentMute]

Well, I don't know if I fully understand what some of you are saying, but I'm glad to be referred to some of the works of literature you are reading. It will help me expand my mind and perhaps come to my own answer.

These are my assumptions:
1) The truth usually does set you free--and it only seems harsh to the unenlightened mind. Generally, I agree that the truth--or what we believe is the truth--is best to have and is what should be attainted.
BUT:
2) A person has to reach a certain state before they can accept a truth. I can speak from personal experience on this one. There have been times in my life I rejected the truth because I was not strong enough to handle it at that point. Now, eventually, I did become strong enough--and the truth did prove liberating, but only after I didn't need my mental crutches anymore.

So maybe I asked the question wrong.

Let us take the Simpsons example. Let us say there was a great leader that united a group of people. He preached good values like helping your neighbor, being a good husband, being a good parent, volunteering in the community. Because he was so admired, the people practiced what he taught.

However, while the people practiced good values, they weren't exactly enlightened. If they were to find out that this man they admired so much was not what they thought he was, everything he taught them would disintegrate. These people are not the type that could say, well just because the man was bad, it doesn't mean the values are--even if he didn't live up to them.

So is it good to reveal a truth to people who can't handle it?

While I do believe that the truth is better--I think it can be rather dangerous to take away mental crutches before people are ready to give them up...or lack something else to cling to.

[keilj]

I think I agree that some people are not prepared for the truth - and that it is not right to "crush them with the truth". In other words, if someone is earnest for the most part, and are seeking growth, they will reach a point where they are ready for deeper and deeper truths. I think of myself 15 years ago, and though I had learned many things, there were other things - which I know now - which may have been harsh truths to me then

On the other hand - what bugs me in everyday life is people who willingly live in ignorance or denial. I know family members, friends, so on, who live in blatant denial about their marriages, their kids, so on. I know parents who have raised their kids to be selfish and materialistic, married couples who have all kinds of problems, yet bury it because of all the time they already have invested in it. This kind of docile denial is practiced by a lot of mature and intelligent adults. I think the repercussions of it go beyond dysfunction - almost to a sort of perversion of what the human soul should be. And again, this is probably because by turning their back on the truth, and burying it, the cost and the side effects will come down the line

I guess I rant about things like this because when you are confronted with these friends and family, it is not socially acceptable to call them on it, so you have to almost become a docile participant in their deliberate dysfunction

[dizzydoll]

So is it good to reveal a truth to people who can't handle it?

Most definitely and through doing so everyone grows.

On the other hand - what bugs me in everyday life is people who willingly live in ignorance or denial. I know family members, friends, so on, who live in blatant denial about their marriages, their kids, so on. I know parents who have raised their kids to be selfish and materialistic, married couples who have all kinds of problems, yet bury it because of all the time they already have invested in it. This kind of docile denial is practiced by a lot of mature and intelligent adults. I think the repercussions of it go beyond dysfunction - almost to a sort of perversion of what the human soul should be. And again, this is probably because by turning their back on the truth, and burying it, the cost and the side effects will come down the line

Yes and I agree Keilj -- denial should be avoided at all costs, thats a real slippery slope.

[NikolaiI]

Yes....
We see it everyday in the political world, the religious world, the stock market...
People need hope to keep momentum. I am reminded of some of the greatest times in my lifetime; and I recall that they were also times when we believed that we were powerful, that we were right, that we would soon conquer space and the oceans, feed the hungry and cure disease...
Whether it was true or not was academic; the belief was what brought us toward the dream..

This sounds a lot like one of my all-time favourite movie lines.

San Francisco in the middle sixties was a very special time and place to be a part of. But no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time in the world. Whatever it meant. ...

There was madness in any direction, at any hour. You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning. ....

And that, I think, was the handle - that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of old and evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave.

-Raoul Duke, in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas