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Thread: Deepwater Horizon

  1. #16
    ésprit de l’escalier DanielBenoit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulim View Post
    As oil is running out, probably within this century, there will be no choice anyway.
    Exactly. . . . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Well their hysteria implies it. The only reasonable alternative to oil is nuclear energy and that brings it's own issues. I welcome both. If you think we have economic and political problems now, just try to live in a world of limited energy souces. Then you will see economic and political problems like never before.
    . . . . . .which is why this is unavoidable.

    Economic and political problems like never before? I'm not going to say that alternative energies are going to fix everything but one must not get hysterical either

    There's no clear solution to anything here, but it's always helpful to be informed. Here are some interesting articles I found. (Note: These links are not meant to be rhetorical, just enlightening. Though if you have any information that discredits something in the article, please do post it )

    http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/j...er-010709.html

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...l/news/2690341

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/bu...enew.html?_r=1

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ve_energy.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I've seen estimates (and not by whacky environmentalists but people in the oil industry) that we have probably consumed less than 20% of all the oil in the earth, and that's going back almost two hundred years of use. Sure we use more now because more nations are industirialized, but I bet we have at least several centruies of oil to use. We are stumbling over oil everywhere.
    So you prefer to take the word of individuals working in the oil industry, whose dollars depend on its continued existence over "whacky environmentalists", most of whom are scientists?

    *SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST*
    The Moments of Dominion
    That happen on the Soul
    And leave it with a Discontent
    Too exquisite — to tell —
    -Emily Dickinson
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVW8GCnr9-I
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckGIvr6WVw4

  2. #17
    Registered User keilj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBenoit View Post
    So you prefer to take the word of individuals working in the oil industry, whose dollars depend on its continued existence over "whacky environmentalists", most of whom are scientists?

    *SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST*
    brilliant


  3. #18
    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I've seen estimates (and not by whacky environmentalists but people in the oil industry) that we have probably consumed less than 20% of all the oil in the earth, and that's going back almost two hundred years of use. Sure we use more now because more nations are industirialized, but I bet we have at least several centruies of oil to use. We are stumbling over oil everywhere. Doesn't it amaze you that oil is discovered almost in all parts of the world? Oil has been a blessing. We would be living like people did two hundred years ago, with wood and possibly coal for heat. Everytime you turn on your electricity (and that includes your computer and ipod and DVD players) or get into a car you are reaping the benfits of oil. Love it. Embrace it. It's the life blood of the modern world.
    Only time will tell and I'm not really going to wrack my brain to find out how many years or centuries we have left, it's not that important to me.

    However, everything you say about oil is true. It's a resource more powerful than any other we have.

    So, what is the best thing to do with something that is more valuable as a resource than anything else? The best thing to do is use it when you need it. I know not everyone will change their lifestyle. But I honestly think that the oil we have we should, as a collective, conserve until we really need it - and by need it, I mean need in terms of a global crisis of some kind. Or invading aliens. What if there are aliens watching us and waiting until we are crippled by being out of oil? Then they attack, and all we have are sunlight powered weapons, which are a lot weaker? I know, I know, it's a significant hyperbole.

    However, the priniciple remains the same. And I know that talking about 'should's are almost as bad as 'should have's - maybe much worse when we are talking about a seemingly unstoppable collective momentum. In the end, I am not going to worry except to try to be conservative with energy but simply because that's the best thing to do, not necessarily because of the current oil disaster. I cannot help but get the impression that we, as a collective, are blowing through our most precious resource like Chris Moneymaker went through the 60 K of his and his dad's off-shore account in college. Sorry just couldn't think of a better analogy.

    The last thing I will say... is regardless of the impossibility of our changing everything in our lifestyle is just this... a feeling...

    The next hole they are drilling (and they are drilling another one, nearby to that one) they will be going down not only the 5,000 ft. of water, but another 18,000 ft. of rock. To me.. this is just gotten beyond us. We can't do it and we should not drill that deep, not through 18,000 ft. of rock below another 5,000 ft. of water. We simply should not. I just know it in my gut.

    It's a recipe for disaster which the immediately recent explosion has shown us. Even if we are more careful next time... The water is freezing, the pressures are enormous, and you still have 18,000 ft. of rock to go. Have fun.
    Last edited by NikolaiI; 05-26-2010 at 04:08 PM.

  4. #19
    now then ;)
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    actually virg is correct there are still vasts amounts of untapped oil - the issue relates more to the types of deposits available a lot are in deeper areas such as the well which leaked or in tar sands such as Alberta and Siberia.

    I have a decent amount to say here and this post may go off on tangents at various times but I will keep that to a minimum as far as possible.

    Firstly regarding the actual disaster: This is not an issue with the use of fossil fuels as an energy source, it is an issue of lack of safeguards, shoddy engineering, lack of response, and regulatory oversight. I have worked in engineering risk management and the main issue here that I can see is the lack of forethought regarding how they would fix this event if it happened. Then there is the slow response regarding permits for louisiana to build sand berms to protect the marshes and there is just a general confusion as to what is going on and who is exactly in charge (something not helped by 24 hour news coverage by many anchors who frankly dont really understand the processes involved and are more comfortable in a political rather than scientific knowledge base). The technology itself was not the issue just the design.

    Secondly addressing the idea of replacing fossil fuels with other sources of energy - We are in no position to start doing that anytime within the next 50 years by my estimates. It is all well and good to talk about how we should look at wind, solar, or hydroelectric sources of power but it just is not feasible. The best replacement method is nuclear but the vocal minority (eg greenpeace) cause so much fuss about that it is almost impossible. Even wind power is turning into a bogeyman in some areas, so this leave us with solar and hydroelectric as "acceptable" and with hydroelectric I expect the next fuss to be regarding building dams and diverting natural process of rivers etc.

    Finally we have virg's inteeligent point regarding how bad it would be economically if we got rid of the industry. Wake up people, think about how much of the worlds economy is dependent on oil and how many jobs are related to it - not to mention the impact on everything people buy going up by 200% to cover increased transportation costs - We cannot afford to get rid of fossil fuel use in the current climate.
    There once was a scotsman named Drew
    Who put too much wine in his stew
    He felt a bit drunk
    And fell off his bunk
    And landed smack into his shoe
    ~(C) Ms Niamh Anne King

  5. #20
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    I am surprised (not really) that no one commented on the positive post that I made early in this thread.

    Isn't it awesome that someone like Kevin Costner has put forth such an effort to fund and spend 15 years developing a machine that will help in the cleanup of oil spills?

    It is called "Ocean Therapy".
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  6. #21
    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Yeah, Bien - I agree with you, and you did a lot of good by even posting about it. I just also think that simply, we need to know our restrictions... and also quit saying it is impossible to stop acting like a young teenager blowing through their first sizable chunk of cash... Or, like an addictive personality anything going through their resources. That's seriously what it seems like to me. So let's stop saying it's impossible to change, and to fix things.

    I'd say 18,000 ft of rock, at the beginning of which is in an incredible pressure at the bottom of the ocean, of freezing temperatures water, the bottom of 5,000 feet... I'd say that's a good limitation to set for ourselves, would you not agree?

    How about, 5,000 ft. of water, where it is freezing and have huge pressures, plus 17,000 ft. of rock.... Let's just go for that oil... and leave the rest for a while, for a few centuries perhaps... Why not?

    Let's conserve, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by kilted exile View Post
    actually virg is correct there are still vasts amounts of untapped oil - the issue relates more to the types of deposits available a lot are in deeper areas such as the well which leaked or in tar sands such as Alberta and Siberia.

    I have a decent amount to say here and this post may go off on tangents at various times but I will keep that to a minimum as far as possible.

    Firstly regarding the actual disaster: This is not an issue with the use of fossil fuels as an energy source, it is an issue of lack of safeguards, shoddy engineering, lack of response, and regulatory oversight. I have worked in engineering risk management and the main issue here that I can see is the lack of forethought regarding how they would fix this event if it happened. Then there is the slow response regarding permits for louisiana to build sand berms to protect the marshes and there is just a general confusion as to what is going on and who is exactly in charge (something not helped by 24 hour news coverage by many anchors who frankly dont really understand the processes involved and are more comfortable in a political rather than scientific knowledge base). The technology itself was not the issue just the design.

    Secondly addressing the idea of replacing fossil fuels with other sources of energy - We are in no position to start doing that anytime within the next 50 years by my estimates. It is all well and good to talk about how we should look at wind, solar, or hydroelectric sources of power but it just is not feasible. The best replacement method is nuclear but the vocal minority (eg greenpeace) cause so much fuss about that it is almost impossible. Even wind power is turning into a bogeyman in some areas, so this leave us with solar and hydroelectric as "acceptable" and with hydroelectric I expect the next fuss to be regarding building dams and diverting natural process of rivers etc.

    Finally we have virg's inteeligent point regarding how bad it would be economically if we got rid of the industry. Wake up people, think about how much of the worlds economy is dependent on oil and how many jobs are related to it - not to mention the impact on everything people buy going up by 200% to cover increased transportation costs - We cannot afford to get rid of fossil fuel use in the current climate.
    Solutions to the world's problems must be very good, both in practical and theoretical nature. There are millions upon millions working to help with all of our problems with a truly boundless range of activities and projects.

    They are doing things in all fields, and in all nations, and in all neighbourhoods. This is a good thing. This is one reason I say that we absolutely need to stop thinking that to make this world what we want it to be is impossible, is out of reach.

    However, nuclear energy should be known to be the slow suicide of earth that it is. Nuclear power creates chemicals which are impossible to eliminate safely, with any of our current technology. The best we can do is contain it, while it will last thousands upon thousands of years.

    If there is any leak, serious problems. There are some ideas which are just bad. Replacing our energy with nuclear is one of them.

    Now - your points about safety are well taken. That's definitely a problem. Is it going to be fixed? Some real measures need to be taken because the industry is not under anyone's reigns at the moment. If you trace the causes of this catastrophe, it certainly comes from many safety regulations being ignored or cheapend or cut in half. If you trace it back a few years, it goes to one of the slimiest slugs to ever enter political power... It's really tied to him, he's got a definite part in what happened, in the chain of events.. I won't say his name though in the prayer that I don't contribute to this thread's closing. It's a vital issue that needs to be discussed.

    And it doesn't matter who caused it, who is to blame, I really believe that it is not that important. What is important is that we do everything we can so that it does not happen again.

    And Bien - I just wanted to mention Kevin again, just for you, so you don't feel ignored in the least... As Bien mentioned Kevin for one is really helping... so let's do what we can as well.

    Any time a life form dies, it's loss is a part of the larger play - and if it is billions or trillions of life forms, then the more so... even if they are a "tiny" organism such as krill.

    I don't think we should feel guilty overly... Even if we killed all life on earth we shouldn't feel guilty.. I only say this because guilt isn't what I feel, what I think is necessarily best... All that's needed is an awareness of the repercussions ... or rather the fact that we can't always know the repercussions to all our actions. It's one life-boat we got, so let's not dry it all up.

    And if I have gone on too long, or if I have seemed to bleeding-heart liberal, that is not the main issue! The focus must be on us all generating the sanest, soberest, views of the crisis. And then come up with the soundest course of action.

    Check out Guitar George,
    He knows all the chords,
    but he's strictly rhythm,
    he doesn't wanna make it cry or sing.
    Yeah and old guitar is all he can afford
    when he gets up under the lights to play his thing.
    And Harry doesn't mind if he doesn't make the scene..
    he's got a day time job, he's doing alright.
    He can play the honkey-tonk like anything,
    Saving it up for Friday night.

  7. #22
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    I have come here to close this thread but, after reading the last three posts, am inclined to give it another chance; maybe there is still some hope for humanity.

    Some posts have been removed and this is the final reminder.
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  8. #23
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade View Post
    [B][CENTER]I have come here to close this thread but, after reading the last three posts, am inclined to give it another chance; maybe there is still some hope for humanity.
    I take it there's no hope for me? Or am I not considered human?
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  9. #24
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Am I to believe that my latest post might have saved this thread?
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  10. #25
    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    Am I to believe that my latest post might have saved this thread?
    No it was my random leaping off into Dire Strait's lyrics.

  11. #26
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    No it was my random leaping off into Dire Strait's lyrics.
    Now THAT makes sense...
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  12. #27
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    I was totally impressed that Costner has spend like 15 years and $24 million for something that he believes in. If I had something to offer, I most definitely would. But I do try to conserve as much as I can in respects to fuel consumption. I hate wastefulness. However, I will say one thing...I will patronize Kevin Costner for any movie he makes even more so now.
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

  13. #28
    now then ;)
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    I know of the range of projects and activities being carried out in attempts to find solutions to the dependence on fossil fuels (I studied a wide variety of them at college whilst gettting my environmental engineering tech) The problem is that nuclear is the most viable alternative, it is the sane sobre alternative and what we really should be doing. The problem is more one of scaremongering by various groups with different agendas which has people constantly worrying about the prospect of another chernobyl or about what happens if it leaks.

    Where I live currently is about 50 km from a nuclear power plant and also a DGR (deep geologic repository) where nuclear waste from a large number of facilities throughout the continent are stored. There is no concern because correct management practices are being carried out an safety checks are in place. I have never seen even one letter to either of the local newspapers in town here about any resident worrying over nuclear, I do however see at least one letter a week by residents decrying the wind turbines that have been installed and the impact on human health from vibration and noise, not to mention the effect on local wildlife.

    PS it was quite clearly my post which saved the thread.
    There once was a scotsman named Drew
    Who put too much wine in his stew
    He felt a bit drunk
    And fell off his bunk
    And landed smack into his shoe
    ~(C) Ms Niamh Anne King

  14. #29
    Registered User keilj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC View Post
    I was totally impressed that Costner has spend like 15 years and $24 million for something that he believes in. If I had something to offer, I most definitely would. But I do try to conserve as much as I can in respects to fuel consumption. I hate wastefulness. However, I will say one thing...I will patronize Kevin Costner for any movie he makes even more so now.
    Costner is the man for doing that. Sean Penn has done a ton for Haiti. I just wish the sand castle kicking adults of the world would stop piling up disasters for others to have to work hard to rectify (quake in Haiti obviously does not apply)

  15. #30
    Jethro BienvenuJDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilted exile View Post
    PS it was quite clearly my post which saved the thread.
    In retrospect, I can clearly see that...
    Les Miserables,
    Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
    Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.

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