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Thread: Heaven and Hell -Are they for real?

  1. #61
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caddy_caddy View Post
    Are u sure that the heaven in Christianity is not material ???
    I think heaven and hell oftentimes are considered physical places high in the sky. This is a myth. They are symbolic, figurative only.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    from the buddhist viewpoint, life is to develop, improve and ultimately escape from suffering. The point of it is that there's a way to make life better and ultimately show others.
    Spot on, thats where I am and thats where everyone can be -- developing and improving. Paul, we should be careful to not blindly accept any conditioning so I put it to you, if someone lives in suffering they are living in the past. It is wrong to live in the past, we must learn to live in the present NOW. Also I dont know if its our responsibility to show others anything, each of us has our own guiding Light to trust and follow.

    I think its also wise to remember that all records of all religions and belief systems have been written by man which makes them all man-made concepts and therefore we should not allow them to control every aspect of our lives. This is not to say we cannot learn from their teachings but we should always allow and trust our own guiding Light first. Was not Buddha’s last words "Be lamps unto yourselves"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    but if a person focuses only upon the heavenly aspects of life , then they mss learning opportunities, and are ignoring the fundamental causes of their suffering. This is the Buddhist viewpoint.
    You are correct, you have no clue what I have learned, and to my knowledge, I havent missed any opportunities and I havent ignored any part of my life either. I believe that I chose my life and my lessons before I was born and I believe everyone else did the same. I have suffered also like everyone else. But are all these points reason to not enjoy the aspects of heaven in which I choose to live?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    This is not the Buddhist view. It is karma that determines your reincarnated state. You may be referring to another system though.
    Well who makes our karma Paul? No-one else but ourselves. As far as reincarnation is concerned there are many different divisions of Buddhism, some dont believe our souls return to earth and others do. Those who dont believe we return teach that we make our own karma here and now. Those who do, believe good and bad karma carry through many lifetimes. All this is really besides the point, what is more to the point is that we determine our karma. So as I stated before, its our choice.. we make our own Heaven or Hell by the way we conduct our lives.

    This is just a friendly debate Paul, no offence meant if I disagree with you, or others views about Heaven and Hell or other spiritual issues. I will say tho, until I am given proof that Heaven and Hell are "physical places", I will not believe it.

    Paul, I think you might have missed this comment because you and I posted at the same time:

    I came back to add, every single human being has things they can appreciate. The sooner they concentrate on those, the sooner joy returns and where else is joy but in Heaven.
    Last edited by dizzydoll; 05-06-2010 at 01:03 PM.

  3. #63
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzydoll View Post
    So I have to wonder what you doing on a thread like this...
    Like Paul, I find the subject interesting.

    I find it even more interesting that such a clearly constructed idea should be so vague.


    Quote Originally Posted by dizzydoll View Post
    ... if someone lives in suffering they are living in the past...
    I have to say that's an extremely naive view.

    Lots of people live in hell right now and cannot change it.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

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    Well enjoy your hell and I will enjoy my naive heaven.


  5. #65
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodo25 View Post
    I wanted to buy that book today, but they didn't have it and I'd need to order it. But seeing that statement makes me want to reconsider.. I don't need to read a book with a moral message atheism = nihilism.

    Anyone willing to defend the book (I know lots of people here have read it)?

    And in order to not get too off topic, I am also interested in what you all think of the statement in general. i.e. 'The Atheist' said Christians are more altruistic and he could even give evidence for that.. Is that really true? I'd like to hear the reasoning and see some stats.
    Haha, yes!!!

    In fact the chapters on Father Zosimov are really moving and beautiful. I have this one, and think it is a good translation (it was award-winning )

    http://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Karam.../dp/0679729259

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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    We can even understand scientifically that everything in the universe is light! All things are energy and matter; both are light. All life on Earth has come from the same source - Sol - who is light. Now how can we be of a different essence than our source??? Consciousness is light - and consciousness is a mirror - a reflection of the universe, so that subject and object are part of each other, they are one - so that all life is one. Yes this mystical truth found in Islam, Christianity, Paganism, Buddhism (NON-duality), and among other religions like that of the ancient Native Americans.

    Paradise is a relative thing - where anyone understands God and lives in LOVE, then this is Paradise.
    Agreed and while we seem to think everything is created in duality, tis not really the case as what we perceive as duality is but ONE WHOLE... the one cannot be without the other. We are travelling our journey towards learning unconditional love... for both others and ourselves.
    Last edited by dizzydoll; 05-06-2010 at 03:29 PM.

  7. #67
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzydoll View Post
    Agreed and while we seem to think everything is created in duality, tis not really the case as what we perceive as duality is but ONE WHOLE... the one cannot be without the other. We are travelling our journey towards learning unconditional love... for both others and ourselves.
    So you are saying that if someone experiences oneness with the universe, they are not experiencing something real?

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    No, they are experiencing something real once they become aware that we are all one with the universe and everything in it. I often maintain that God is in everything we see and even that which we cannot see, like oxygen.

  9. #69
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzydoll View Post
    No, they are experiencing something real once they become aware that we are all one with the universe and everything in it. I often maintain that God is in everything we see and even what we cannot see, like oxygen.
    Well yes , if any one of us are one with the universe, then all of us are. But that's what I thought you were saying was not true a few posts ago..

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    Where, you must have misunderstood my post or else its just my clumsy way of expressing myself again.... Where?

  11. #71
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    I misunderstood!

    It was this:
    tis not really the case as what we perceive as duality is but ONE WHOLE...
    It's not your fault.. I read it like this:

    tis not really the case that] what we perceive as duality is but ONE WHOLE...
    with a "that" instead of an "as"

    I guess...silly me.
    Last edited by NikolaiI; 05-06-2010 at 03:49 PM.

  12. #72
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    Thank God... we as humans are foolish enough to perceive anything.. thats all my comment meant to say. What happened to your other post to Atheist? I was was about to agree with you. I dont mind being called naive by some... we are all learning and are at different stages in life. I would be more unhappy if you called me naive and I would quickly want to learn where I am wrong from you. That is why I asked for your feedback on my posts
    Last edited by dizzydoll; 05-06-2010 at 03:55 PM.

  13. #73
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzydoll View Post
    Spot on, thats where I am and thats where everyone can be -- developing and improving. Paul, we should be careful to not blindly accept any conditioning so I put it to you, if someone lives in suffering they are living in the past. It is wrong to live in the past, we must learn to live in the present NOW. Also I dont know if its our responsibility to show others anything, each of us has our own guiding Light to trust and follow.

    I think its also wise to remember that all records of all religions and belief systems have been written by man which makes them all man-made concepts and therefore we should not allow them to control every aspect of our lives. This is not to say we cannot learn from their teachings but we should always allow and trust our own guiding Light first. Was not Buddha’s last words "Be lamps unto yourselves"?

    You are correct, you have no clue what I have learned, and to my knowledge, I havent missed any opportunities and I havent ignored any part of my life either. I believe that I chose my life and my lessons before I was born and I believe everyone else did the same. I have suffered also like everyone else. But are all these points reason to not enjoy the aspects of heaven in which I choose to live?

    Well who makes our karma Paul? No-one else but ourselves. As far as reincarnation is concerned there are many different divisions of Buddhism, some dont believe our souls return to earth and others do. Those who dont believe we return teach that we make our own karma here and now. Those who do, believe good and bad karma carry through many lifetimes. All this is really besides the point, what is more to the point is that we determine our karma. So as I stated before, its our choice.. we make our own Heaven or Hell by the way we conduct our lives.

    This is just a friendly debate Paul, no offence meant if I disagree with you, or others views about Heaven and Hell or other spiritual issues. I will say tho, until I am given proof that Heaven and Hell are "physical places", I will not believe it.

    Paul, I think you might have missed this comment because you and I posted at the same time:

    I came back to add, every single human being has things they can appreciate. The sooner they concentrate on those, the sooner joy returns and where else is joy but in Heaven.
    I think you are giving a lot of true and positive ideas to the world.

    And about the Hell and Heaven bit, I'll post a bit from a Buddhist parable which you've probably heard... I was glad to read it again after searching for it!


    "Heard a great story about how heaven and hell expressed though Buddhism is very different to how religions preach heaven and hell. The story is of a Samurai who was sick of hearing mythical descriptions of heaven and hell and wanted to understand what Buddhist monks believed…The young Samurai warrior came across a monk sitting down and asked him:
    “Monk. Is there a heaven and a hell? If you know the answer, tell me. If you don’t, don’t waste my time!”.
    The monk looked up at him and said “you’re too stupid to understand!”.
    The samurai said “Stupid? I’m a samurai warrior!”. The monk replied “You. A samurai? don’t be silly, you’re just a country bumpkin!”.
    “That’s twice you’ve insulted me monk!” he rests his hand on his katana handle and sates “one more insult and I will cut you’re head off with this sword in half a second!”.
    “With that, stupid rusty blade, you couldn’t cut a slice of bread with that!”. The samurai draws his sword, incensed by the insult of his imaculate sword, squinting his eyes with rage he prepared to swipe with his blade, the monk made eye contact and said:
    “Samurai! That’s hell!”.
    The samuai then understood at that moment that the anger he felt was what hell was like. He was so moved that he dropped his sword and his eyes welled up and bowed to the monk saying “thank you monk.”. Then the monk said “and that is heaven.” and the samurai understood that the repect, understanding, and compassion he flet was what heaven was like…"

    http://www.jamesmylne.co.uk/blog/?cat=15

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    Thank you Nikolai.. your response makes perfect sense to me. Your views are important to me. I knew from the very beginning that yours and Blaze's views were most compatible with my outlook when I signed up here. Do you remember?

    Now, try telling people that we choose our lessons before we get here and that, what seems to be suffering to us in others, was chosen by their Old Soul and it is not our burden to carry their suffering.. its only our right to offer compassion but we are not able to release them of their load. Once we understand this simple truth then we begin to understand why some people seem more blessed than others, its their due. We are not all required to randomly suffer, and I believe once we grasp this reality our life changes to a heavenly Joy right here on earth.

    Life is not a reality its only our perception... we make our own Heaven or Hell even if we ARE repaying bad karma, all we need to remember is that as long as we count our blessings in appreciation of all things, it can only improve even while we work bad karma off.
    Last edited by dizzydoll; 05-06-2010 at 04:33 PM.

  15. #75
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzydoll View Post
    Thank you Nikolai.. your response makes perfect sense to me. Your views are important to me. I knew from the very beginning that yours and Blaze's views were most compatible with my outlook when I signed up here. Do you remember?

    Now, try telling people that we choose our lessons before we get here and that, what seems to be suffering to us in others, was chosen by their Old Soul and it is not our burden to carry their suffering.. its only right to offer compassion but we are not able to release their load.
    Interesting. I've never heard that or thought of it that way, but I am glad you shared it with me. Thank you.

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