Heaven and Hell -Are they for real?

[caddy_caddy]

Yes but during the discussions it turned out to be sth else .

Would any believer like to deal with the "eternal" part of heaven? How you see that eternity working out? It's a hell of a long time.

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
It's really boring . I don't know what will be there to make us handle living for eternity . For sure I fear hell and I don't want to be there but I never longed for eternity in heaven . If I could choose I would come back again and have another life . The earth is so beautiful too and what is mentionned in the Qura'n about heaven : its physical reality has many resemblances with what we have on earth , for instance rivers , trees , fruits and so on .
So , the Atheist , u won't miss anything there .
The only thing that makes me think of it is the fact that I can meet whom i love there . I'm making " rendez -vous there " . really I'm not kidding .

And since here I don't get bored being with them and time passes very quickly when we are together . I think this very thing would make eternity endurable and we won't feel it that long .
Actually we are told that we will be for ever youth there . That means we won't be affected by the passage of time and we don't know what would be the time there . We cannot make an analogy between our conditions here and our conditions there.
Moreover God will purify our hearts from envy and hatred . Our hearts would be only full of love so you will be happy being with your ex-wife and do not complain about it .

In what concerns the murderer being with his victim in heaven . You should know that unless the victim " forgives " his murderer , the latter won't get the mercy of God .LooK how God is just .

From the discusions I noticed that there are differences concerning this issue . One thing I want to add being essential to the conception of heaven
for Muslims at least is that " in heaven we could see God ".
." This is what they long for and what they pray for . In their consciousness it is related to this possibilty .It is a great motive for human beings . Immagine that u could see the Lord !

[Paulclem]

Where do the Muslim references to heaven come from? Is it the Koran?

In the original article, the problem with Christian heaven is that the original conception is not like the current one, and the original Jewish idea was that there was no afterlife, though the messages are mixed.

Perhaps because the Koran is more recent, then it has provided a more consistent image of heaven?

[caddy_caddy]

Yes The Qura'n is full of details about heaven and hell .What is mentionned asserts that they are physical , real , and concrete . We have no such problem. This matter is very clear and consistent .
But before that and long time ago ,if you accept that Adam is the origin of our species , the very idea comes from God not human and inherited from Adam to his descendants .

[Dodo25]

As it is mentioned in the Brothers Karamazov if we have no fear of God, or no sense of morality or afterlives anything is possible. No matter whether we kill anybody secretly.

I wanted to buy that book today, but they didn't have it and I'd need to order it. But seeing that statement makes me want to reconsider.. I don't need to read a book with a moral message atheism = nihilism.

Anyone willing to defend the book (I know lots of people here have read it)?

And in order to not get too off topic, I am also interested in what you all think of the statement in general. i.e. 'The Atheist' said Christians are more altruistic and he could even give evidence for that.. Is that really true? I'd like to hear the reasoning and see some stats.

[Paulclem]

Yes The Qura'n is full of details about heaven and hell .What is mentionned asserts that they are physical , real , and concrete . We have no such problem. This matter is very clear and consistent .
But before that and long time ago ,if you accept that Adam is the origin of our species , the very idea comes from God not human and inherited from Adam to his descendants .

In what way are they physical and real? Does that mean they are in a physical place? Is this place on earth or somewhere else? What then about hell? I ask out of interest.

[Paulclem]

I wanted to buy that book today, but they didn't have it and I'd need to order it. But seeing that statement makes me want to reconsider.. I don't need to read a book with a moral message atheism = nihilism.

Anyone willing to defend the book (I know lots of people here have read it)?

And in order to not get too off topic, I am also interested in what you all think of the statement in general. i.e. 'The Atheist' said Christians are more altruistic and he could even give evidence for that.. Is that really true? I'd like to hear the reasoning and see some stats.

I don't know about stats, but look in many Weatern cities and there is a salvation Army hostel. There are lots of christian charities, too. The missions set up abroad may well exploit opportunities for conversion, but I'm sure that they do that after the charity.

In India there are also Christian charities. Mother Theresa's mission is one example of Catholic good works. From working at one for a short while, I didn't get the impression that it was to swell Catholic membership, but was for altruistic purposes. I'm not a Christian by the way.

[The Atheist]

I wanted to buy that book today, but they didn't have it and I'd need to order it. But seeing that statement makes me want to reconsider.. I don't need to read a book with a moral message atheism = nihilism.

Quite right, it's a stupid premise. I don't like to blow my own trumpet, but I'm a hardline atheist and I bet I give more money and time to charities than just about any christian you'll find.

I am also interested in what you all think of the statement in general. i.e. 'The Atheist' said Christians are more altruistic and he could even give evidence for that.. Is that really true? I'd like to hear the reasoning and see some stats.

I'll try to find them - there are some quality statistics on it.

Mother Theresa's mission is one example of Catholic good works.

Maybe not the best choice you could come up with - MT's "charity" made hundreds of millions of dollars out of ostensibly helping terminally ill people, but in fact was exploiting many curable patients and letting them die.

Chris Hitchens does a great job of exposing the myths about Theresa.

Interestingly, before she died, she admitted that she'd lost her faith.

[Paulclem]

Quite right, it's a stupid premise. I don't like to blow my own trumpet, but I'm a hardline atheist and I bet I give more money and time to charities than just about any christian you'll find.



I'll try to find them - there are some quality statistics on it.



Maybe not the best choice you could come up with - MT's "charity" made hundreds of millions of dollars out of ostensibly helping terminally ill people, but in fact was exploiting many curable patients and letting them die.

Chris Hitchens does a great job of exposing the myths about Theresa.

Interestingly, before she died, she admitted that she'd lost her faith.

Perhaps not but the choice was based upon what I saw happening in a mission. It wasn't a big place, and was filled with nuns helping disabled kids and elderly people. I don't know about the big organisation stuff, but certainly the individuals who worked there were sincere.

[dizzydoll]

Quite right, it's a stupid premise. I don't like to blow my own trumpet, but I'm a hardline atheist

So I have to wonder what you doing on a thread like this... are you trying to change our minds to your way of thinking?

I havent read the thread because its irrelevant what people think about Heaven or Hell, they live their own... whatever they are comfortable with.

Heaven and Hell are not places and there are billions [or rather trillions] of forms of heaven and hell on earth.

[Paulclem]

So I have to wonder what you doing on a thread like this... are you trying to change our minds to your way of thinking?

I havent read the thread because its irrelevant what people think about Heaven or Hell, they live their own... whatever they are comfortable with.

Heaven and Hell are not places and there are billions [or rather trillions] of forms of heaven and hell on earth.

That does depend upon your point of view. Muslims and Christians claim heaven to be a different place, whilst Buddhist views of the world are that it's underlying feature is suffering - including the various heavens in the worldview.

The viewpoint - people think whatever they are comfortable with is all very well, but what if they think something damaging like the terrorists who believe that heaven awaits them after they have been martyred.
I also think it;s a complacent view, as life for so many people is difficult and full of suffering.

[dizzydoll]

Thats why I said there are trillions of heavens and hells, we all have our own.

The viewpoint - people think whatever they are comfortable with is all very well, but what if they think something damaging like the terrorists who believe that heaven awaits them after they have been martyred.

The world will never rid itself of its madmen.

I also think it;s a complacent view, as life for so many people is difficult and full of suffering.

Paul if we only focus on difficulties and suffering then what is LIFE is for? We may as well be done with it and blow a hole in our heads or take an overdose. Assuming reincarnation does exist, its message teaches.. what we dont learn in this life will become our nemesis in the next. What does that say for suffering?

I believe in life we must try to keep it and simple and as joyful as we can otherwise there is no quality of life... I live in Heaven, but thats probably due to coming from more than enough Hell, to not want to go back there. The choice is always ours.

Life is like a wild tiger
You can either lie down
and let it
Lay its paw on your head --
Or sit on its back and ride it.

From: Ride the Wild Tiger.

[blazeofglory]

That does depend upon your point of view. Muslims and Christians claim heaven to be a different place, whilst Buddhist views of the world are that it's underlying feature is suffering - including the various heavens in the worldview.

The viewpoint - people think whatever they are comfortable with is all very well, but what if they think something damaging like the terrorists who believe that heaven awaits them after they have been martyred.
I also think it;s a complacent view, as life for so many people is difficult and full of suffering.

In fact even in Christianity there is an idea of figurative heaven not material. Milton in Paradise Lost said Heaven or Hell is a state of mind only.

[dizzydoll]

Thanks for pointing that out Blaze, I didnt know that.

I came back to add, every single human being has things they can appreciate. The sooner they concentrate on those, the sooner joy returns and where else is joy but in Heaven.

[Paulclem]

Thats why I said there are trillions of heavens and hells, we all have our own.



The world will never rid itself of its madmen.



Paul if we only focus on difficulties and suffering then what is LIFE is for? We may as well be done with it and blow a hole in our heads or take an overdose. Assuming reincarnation does exist, its message teaches.. what we dont learn in this life will become our nemesis in the next. What does that say for suffering?

I believe in life we must try to keep it and simple and as joyful as we can otherwise there is no quality of life... I live in Heaven, but thats probably due to coming from more than enough Hell, to not want to go back there. The choice is always ours.

Life is like a wild tiger
You can either lie down
and let it
Lay its paw on your head --
Or sit on its back and ride it.

From: Ride the Wild Tiger.

I certainly hope you continue to live in heaven, but the nature of our existence is suffering - and to answer your question, from the buddhist viewpoint, life is to develop, improve and ultimately escape from suffering. The point of it is that there's a way to make life better and ultimately show others.

It's not about lying down but dealing with it. I don't know you dizzy, and so I can't make assumptions about you and your attitude of course, but if a person focuses only upon the heavenly aspects of life , then they mss learning opportunities, and are ignoring the fundamental causes of their suffering. This is the Buddhist viewpoint.

Assuming reincarnation does exist, its message teaches.. what we dont learn in this life will become our nemesis in the next. What does that say for suffering?

This is not the Buddhist view. It is karma that determines your reincarnated state. You may be referring to another system though.

[caddy_caddy]

In fact even in Christianity there is an idea of figurative heaven not material

Are u sure that the heaven in Christianity is not material ???