When does philosophy become drivel and why?

[The Atheist]

The trouble is you cannot measure this and please believe me if there is any seed of doubt to begin with such phenomenon as intuition, synchronicity and psychic evaluation will elude you for sure.

Nope.

If it is real we will be able to count the results - no science needed, just a little arithmetic.

To date, not one case of psychic ability has been seen. This is a no-brainer.

"Researchers" into psychic phenomena use the simple shape-guessing game to judge psychic ability, and if it was real, there would be examples of people who had beaten random chance. So far, that hasn't happened once in millions of attempts, so we don't need to use scientific investigation to check out something which has no concrete results at all.

What you say is simply not true... or else its old science. I watch a channel called Crime and Investigation which show detectives using psychics to successfully bring perpetrators to justice, many of them are old cases.

Come on! It's a TV program for god's sake.

Seeing it on TV does not make it real.

As I asked - if you believe there is a single crime which has been solved by a psychic, tell me which one it is, because several years of investigation into crimes allegedly solved by psychics found every case to be fake or mistake.

I, for one, have had prophetic dreams. In fact I saw my home in a dream 3 years before I moved here. I believe this revelation could have only been presented in a dream by my personal guides.

I've seen many thousands of personal anecdotes.

Its not the only prophetic dream that I've had. Edgar Casey is another who relied on prophetic dreams with great accuracy.

I take it you're actually referring to Edgar Cayce? (nice if you know who your heroes actually are)

If so, you're right, his predictions were amazingly accurate!

A few examples of his prophetic dreams:

California will slide into the ocean
New York City will be destroyed in a cataclysm
In 1958 the U.S. will discover the death ray used on Atlantis (Atlantis being real, of course)
1933 will be a good year

Yep, he was brilliant alright, with his psychic abilities only surpassed by his medical skills:

In 1926, prescribed for a New York patient the raw side of a freshly skinned rabbit, still warm with blood, fur side out, placed on the breast for cancer of that area

Funny how medicine doesn't work like that. Cayce is one of history's great frauds.

Another account which makes the hair on my arms stand up is Nostradamus, he was buried with a plaque around his neck predicting the exact year his grave would be unearthed. He said the man who would dig up his grave would be killed. It happened just as he predicted it would 200 years later. Granted the stray bullet that killed that grave digger came from a soldier in the French Revolution, if I am not mistaken, but isnt that such a coincidence?

Alas, it isn't correct.

Nostradamus has been heavily investigated and fails miserably at every turn, despite the immense and contradictory nature of translations of his quatrains.

This will help you regarding his grave and its opening.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-be-discovered

Anyway it makes me think of this little phrase, cant remember who wrote it:

Except it's completely wrong.

You could prove psychic ability to me by passing one test of psychic ability. James Randi has had a $US1 million prize for over twenty years which will be paid to anyone displaying just one instance of actual psychic ability.

The money is still earning interest.

Its our differences that make us the interesting people that we are, and we shouldnt wish to change that in anyone. Its what makes the world go round

I don't see claims of psychic ability as a difference - just the work of charlatans and frauds who exploit the gullible.

I really am interested in your interpretation of life and the way it is supposed to be lived without inquiring into the meaning of the same.

Well, the first step would be to show me that we need a meaning and that one exists.

Science shows that our existence is due to evolution - which pretty much means that we're here by pure chance, so I find it hard to discren what "meaning" human existence might possibly have.

If we're to blame anything for the human condition, please let it be the curse of consciousness.

Pretty close. If you swap consciousness for imagination, I think you're entirely right. Consciousness nees not imply a desire for magic, but because we can imagine abstract things, we desire them.

Evolution has failed miserably in this regard. I can only hope that our future generations will not have this problem, and they will just live and live and live, unlike those ancient philosophers who spent most of their life worrying and thinking about things they never understood anyway.

On that, I concur.

I often wonder what progress human society could have made had it not been bogged down in magic/k for thousands of years.

19th and 20th century philosophers were the worst. They are what the online populace so delightfully describes as emo losers. The likes of Sartre and Camus were annoying whiners with nothing productive or constructive to say or contribute to the society, all the while people were busy living, fighting wars, killing each other and threatening to annihilate our luxurious existence back to stone ages. No wonder they couldn't find cute dates. Nobels are overrated anyway. Even Obama got one, and that too without doing anything. But I digress!

Sure, but you're on target!

Yes, philosophy is very much irrelevant today. Science alone, with its hard facts and inventions, is more than enough for anyone in this day and age. So what if most of their micro and macrophysics don't make much sense in a physical world such as ours. Those umpteen dimensions required by a few mathematical equations may sound out of this world today, but someday we'll thank these physicists for conjuring and summoning up those hidden secrets of the universe, including dark energy and dark matter, that make our everyday life so much more enjoyable.

I take pity on people who feel alienated from this wonderful society, especially from those shiny new gadgets and luxurious things we keep producing. How can anyone find enough time on their hands for such inane things like thoughts and philosophy? How can anyone feel disenchanted from this life of abundance ...this world full of wonders? Even those problems can be cured easily with the help of science. I so wish they brought back genius ideas like lobotomy. No wonder most of the philosophers were senile old kooks and they only sought after spreading their disease of philosophy--thus turning bright young people into pessimistic nothings.

Douglas Adams is one of many who expresses this really well:

With all the wonders of the universe, why would I want to see fairies at the bottom of the garden? [paraphrased]

No, you seem to have a problem with the word: philosophy. I'll let Wikipedia define it:

No, that's the classical method I mean. The word can also be used to describe any form of thinking.

Amen! Even God is aware of the problem with thinking. Which is why we have commandments inscribed on stone tablets.

[Satan]

Well, you didn't get the sarcasm; but that's because it wasn't quite apparent.

Well, the first step would be to show me that we need a meaning and that one exists.

Science shows that our existence is due to evolution - which pretty much means that we're here by pure chance, so I find it hard to discren what "meaning" human existence might possibly have.

Precisely! Existence precedes essence. And how did we come to this conclusion? By thinking over and analyzing every other possibility and only then discarding beliefs that are illogical and improbable. And since our lives don't have any predetermined divine meaning, it is entirely up to you to define and shape it the way you fancy.

I am an atheist myself, but I find it quite disheartening when people take science almost as religiously as others do with their belief systems. Science cannot and will never answer most of our questions about life, its significance or meaninglessness, morality, ethics, languages, aesthetics, politics and knowledge. It is no more than a crude and finite set of logical and mathematical tools designed to cope with materialistic problems. Considering the overwhelming effect that excessive indulgence and abundance have on our lives in this 21st century, we need philosophy more than ever.

Your proposition that life be lived without making any conscious attempt at analyzing it is but a morbidly romantic aftereffect of the scientific fascination with machines and precision tools. Why stop at philosophy? What productive contribution do music, art and literature make that philosophy doesn't?

More importantly, what possible alternatives and solution do you suggest?

Pretty close. If you swap consciousness for imagination, I think you're entirely right. Consciousness nees not imply a desire for magic, but because we can imagine abstract things, we desire them.

And what exactly is wrong with that? Humans dreamed of flying before they actually could. Scientists imagined a lot many things before they found any concrete evidence for the same. They still do. Are you willing to refute their claims that cannot be verified using traditional methods and tools of science?

On that, I concur.

I don't. Today we stand upon the shoulders of the giants, and we owe it to their critical thinking and imagination, just as we are thankful to and ashamed of primates. Philosophy, like any other discipline, has evolved and still is evolving.

No hard feelings.

[The Atheist]

Precisely! Existence precedes essence. And how did we come to this conclusion? By thinking over and analyzing every other possibility and only then discarding beliefs that are illogical and improbable. And since our lives don't have any predetermined divine meaning, it is entirely up to you to define and shape it the way you fancy.

Yep, that's how it works.

I am an atheist myself, but I find it quite disheartening when people take science almost as religiously as others do with their belief systems.

Me too. It's a tool, not a doctrine.

Science cannot and will never answer most of our questions about life, its significance or meaninglessness, morality, ethics, languages, aesthetics, politics and knowledge.

I can only continue disagreeing with this position. Only science is capable of answering those questions - if they're able to be answered.

If there is no "purpose" in life beyond that of random chance through evolution, there is no way any philosophy will show us what's right.

I ask for about the fifth time - if philosophy can answer ethical questions, why hasn't it yet? Morality, aesthetics and language are based on physical concepts. Philosophy may ask the questions, but if it cannot and does not answer them, then it hasn't been of much use, has it?

It is no more than a crude and finite set of logical and mathematical tools designed to cope with materialistic problems.

What non-material problems do we face?

Considering the overwhelming effect that excessive indulgence and abundance have on our lives in this 21st century, we need philosophy more than ever.

Sorry, but this makes no sense to me.

What problems does the 21st century have that we haven't had for a very long time?

Your proposition that life be lived without making any conscious attempt at analyzing it is but a morbidly romantic aftereffect of the scientific fascination with machines and precision tools.

No, it's more cynicism through decades of meaningless drivel produced by philosophers.

As I've already stated, the majority of people in developed countries don't actually care about questions of "life, the universe and everything" but simply live their lives - a sensible option. Questions of "why we're here" occupy a lot less time than you seem to think.

It's precisely because people don't care about the eternal verities that church membership has collapsed.

Why stop at philosophy? What productive contribution do music, art and literature make that philosophy doesn't?

No, that's being silly. Music, art & literature fulfil evolutionary imperatives and create enjoyment as well.

Philosophy does none of that, although it can be a little entertaining and provides employment for a few academics not able to progress through physical disciplines. [/insert emoticon to show that this is mostly joking]

More importantly, what possible alternatives and solution do you suggest?

Ignoring metaphysical questions entirely. No good comes from them.

And what exactly is wrong with that? Humans dreamed of flying before they actually could.

They had been able to see the evidence of other animals flying for all of human existence, though, so it wasn't a great philosophical leap.

Scientists imagined a lot many things before they found any concrete evidence for the same. They still do. Are you willing to refute their claims that cannot be verified using traditional methods and tools of science?

Which claims are these?

I don't. Today we stand upon the shoulders of the giants, and we owe it to their critical thinking and imagination, just as we are thankful to and ashamed of primates. Philosophy, like any other discipline, has evolved and still is evolving.

If evolving means being queezed out by evidential approach, then sure, it's evolving.

No hard feelings.

It's an internet forum - there never are at my end.

[Vautrin]

Not that I don't appreciate the science/philosophy debate, but what about something closer to home?

Hypothetical Situation:
A man with a wife and three kids loses his job and eventually his house. Clearly, the best solution to his problem would be for him to get a new job. He and his family could stay at a relative's house until he saves enough money to buy another house or condominium, rent an apartment, etc. In the meantime, how can philosophy help this man get through such a tough time? Can philosophy help this man approach the situation with a clearer head and keep him focused on the bigger picture or does it simply become rubbish he has no time for? Can deep philosophical reflection be a motivational tool or something that causes despair?

Science and religion aside, can philosophy bring calm to the storm that is this man's life? or is it as good as a broken umbrella in a downpour?

[dizzydoll]

Nostradamus has been heavily investigated and fails miserably at every turn, despite the immense and contradictory nature of translations of his quatrains.

This will help you regarding his grave and its opening.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-be-discovered

To quote you:
Come on! It's a website for god's sake.

Seeing it on the internet does not make it real. lol. or any more believable for that matter.

Even so, I cant find where they actually dispute this prediction. The only link to an outside website they provide doesnt even open up. I prefer another researched account which records whats been carried down for centuries even tho his predictions are very difficult to interpret because he wrote in 4 different languages for good reason. Source: The man who saw tomorrow. [I also see google provides a 88min youtube video for your viewing pleasure]

As I said before, more in line with the OP's question:

For those who believe no proof is necessary
For those who dont believe no proof is possible.

[The Atheist]

Science and religion aside, can philosophy bring calm to the storm that is this man's life? or is it as good as a broken umbrella in a downpour?

I'd vote for it complicating matters at a time when pragmatism's called for.

To quote you:
Come on! It's a website for god's sake.

Seeing it on the internet does not make it real. lol. or any more believable for that matter.

I've given you but one example of many, many different sources of information on the subject.

As I said before:

Which is meaningless as well as incorrect.

It's as cute a swerve as you can get, but the facts remain - if there were even a grain of truth in psychic abilities, there would be statistically significant and measurable results. There are none. Nada, not one.

I see at least you've recognised that claims of psychics helping solve police cases are all lies, so that's all to the good.

[dizzydoll]

If there were even a grain of truth in psychic abilities, there would be statistically significant and measurable results. There are none. Nada, not one.

I see at least you've recognised that claims of psychics helping solve police cases are all lies, so that's all to the good.

Where did I say that they are all lies? I actually do believe the real live detectives that I see on the telly who make use of psychics successfully.

You simply cannot and never will be able to measure psychic ability, no matter how you try. Here is a true account that happened, lets call it a direct experience which I shared on someone else's blog:

I had just returned from Zambia, recovering from cerebral malaria, to visit my grandmother. She was asleep in the same room where I was messing around on the laptop late one night. Without warning she sat up from a deep sleep and said "Please be a pet and check on the lady across the passage shes about to die."

I got up, tucked her into the covers and told her its just a bad dream she should go back to sleep.

Anyway, just to be certain the next day I knocked on the door of that lady across the passage to ask how she was doing. She told me she was almost better from a bout of flu but otherwise fine. She said she didnt need anything from the store when I offered to go for her.

The next day she was dead.

It really felt creepy to ask my grandmother how she knew this. As it turned out she had forgotten all about her dream until I had brought it up. Now if thats not a prophetic dream or a psychic revelation then I dont know..... How would you explain this?

[The Atheist]

Where did I say that they are all lies? I actually do believe the real live detectives that I see on the telly who make use of psychics successfully.

That's quite funny, really. I was just messing with you - I knew full well you hadn't changed your mind, but the lack of any details of solved cases was compelling evidence that it's never happened.

I repeat my challenge for you to give just one single case where psychics solved the case.

You simply cannot and never will be able to measure psychic ability, no matter how you try. Here is a true account that happened, lets call it a direct experience which I shared on someone else's blog:

Yep, it is indeed impossible to measure something that doesn't exist.

I had just returned from Zambia, recovering from cerebral malaria, to visit my grandmother. She was asleep in the same room where I was messing around on the laptop late one night. Without warning she sat up from a deep sleep and said "Please be a pet and check on the lady across the passage shes about to die."

I got up, tucked her into the covers and told her its just a bad dream she should go back to sleep.

Anyway, just to be certain the next day I knocked on the door of that lady across the passage to ask how she was doing. She told me she was almost better from a bout of flu but otherwise fine. She said she didnt need anything from the store when I offered to go for her.

The next day she was dead.

It really felt creepy to ask my grandmother how she knew this. As it turned out she had forgotten all about her dream until I had brought it up. Now if thats not a prophetic dream or a psychic revelation then I dont know..... How would you explain this?

Coincidence, selective memory, lots of things - humans are awful eyewitnesses; ask any cop. The woman was clearly sick as she'd told you she'd had the 'flu, so it wouldn't be unusual for on old woman to worry about a neighbour.

Luckily, prophetic dreams have a 100% record.

Of failure.

[dizzydoll]

I repeat my challenge for you to give just one single case where psychics solved the case.

Sure thing, you will have to wait until the next series comes on for me to get the detectives names and law enforcement agency where they are located. You have to understand, its not as if my life is consumed by this. I never realized I'd have to prove myself, but if it makes you feel better I will not forget this challenge. lol

Yep, it is indeed impossible to measure something that doesn't exist.

Thats not a good enough answer to my comment, that is like me saying the world is flat. Case closed.

The woman was clearly sick as she'd told you she'd had the 'flu, so it wouldn't be unusual for on old woman to worry about a neighbour.

No, no, no, you sidestep. and btw, my grandmother didnt know the woman, she was a new resident. She was dressed in her clothes [not in her gown/robe] and she appeared well enough to me. She wasnt too old and I doubt she died of the flu. You should know, few people die of flu these days. Where they live also has a 24hour in-house clinic if she was ill thats where she would have been. Furthermore we dont get winters in this town, we never wear cardigans or coats here, so the word flu is just a term.. its probably more like a cold she had, a runny nose, nothing more or nothing less.

What actually happened is that my grandmother predicted her death in advance and science cannot measure this. Also psychic ability, intuition, unaccounted coincidences are not new to humanity, they've been around since the beginning of time. This is not to say I believe the world will end in 2012, I dont. People have also predicted the END since the beginning of time and this could be why science takes a dim view of these abilities.

In all fairness, is it not easier to just allow others their beliefs and possibly step out that scientific box and explore a little more.? lol

Have a happy Easter... Friends

PS. I wont forget the challenge, perhaps you can write a thread, to share with us, what you find out from the detectives after you have followed up. lol.

[The Atheist]

I never realized I'd have to prove myself, but if it makes you feel better I will not forget this challenge. lol

It's nothing to do with you proving yourself since you are only making second-hand claims. The original claims are lies.

Thats not a good enough answer to my comment, that is like me saying the world is flat. Case closed.

No, it's completely different to that, and there's even a flat earth thread to help you with that idea at the moment.

No, no, no, you sidestep. and btw, my grandmother didnt know the woman, she was a new resident.

So your grandmother didn't know she had a neigbour? Did she move in the day before she died?

She was dressed in her clothes [not in her gown/robe] and she appeared well enough to me. She wasnt too old and I doubt she died of the flu. You should know, few people die of flu these days.

Ah, so because only a few people die of the 'flu, this woman didn't? Have you not heard of H1N1? Just for your edification, hundreds of thousands of people die of influenza every year - and most of them are elderly.

How old was this alleged woman?

Where they live also has a 24hour in-house clinic if she was ill thats where she would have been. Furthermore we dont get winters in this town, we never wear cardigans or coats here, so the word flu is just a term.. its probably more like a cold she had, a runny nose, nothing more or nothing less.

Nice backdown!

Temperature doesn't make any difference, by the way. You need to realise that those old wives' tales about getting sick from getting wet feet or being cold are just old wives' tales.

What actually happened is that my grandmother predicted her death in advance and science cannot measure this.

This is your opinion, and the more you write, the less I accept a psychic event.

Let's have a look at the facts of the case - the few that I know, and although the only source is yourself:

You were using a laptop in your grandmother's bedroom, while she was asleep, according to you. That is most unusual in itself, and I bet you haven't done that too often.

We now find that wherever this happened has a 24-hour, in-house medical clinic attached to it.

Since the only organisations with in-house clinics are usually only those with very sick people nearby - rest homes for the aged, for example - I'm going to have to assume that people dying there is quite a common occurrence.

The woman lived "across the passage", which tends to indicate a condominium-style retirement home, yet despite the usual camaraderie in those places, your grandmother didn't know the woman and didn't know she was sick. This smacks of being extremely unlikely.

The more facts I see, the more I am inclined to believe every word you've told me - you were staying with your granny and she predicted someone's death.

When that happens to be in a place where death is commonplace, like a retirement home, I don't find it too surprising. I imagine you didn't stay in your granny's room more than that once - could be, at an age with death around her and growing old herself, that she thought about death frequently.

I predicted my own father's death - in a dream - to the exact second.

I am 100% confident most people would see that as a sign of psychic ability, but I examined the facts and am 100% confident it wasn't.

We each use whatever means we prefer to arrive at an answer, which is why it's highly appropriate to be discussing this in a philosophy thread.

One tool of philosophy I do recommend is Occam's Razor, although I usually just use the term "critical thinking" because it encompasses Occam while examining evidence.

Also psychic ability, intuition, unaccounted coincidences are not new to humanity, they've been around since the beginning of time.

Well, let's agree that claims of them have been around since the beginning of time. Coincidences don't need to be accounted for - if they were able to be accounted for, they wouldn't be coincidences. One thing people usually ignore is that in a world of 7 billion people having 100,000 thoughts a day, the odd coincidence is pretty well unavoidable.

See, I look at the millions of claims made over the millennia for psychic ability, precognition and telepathy and find that none is even remotely believable. You mention Cayce. The man was so clearly a fraud, and a fraud who purveyed medical pseudoscience as well, that I'm amazed to find someone clai,ing he was anything but a fraud.

Uri Geller, Peter Popoff, John Edwards; even locals [to me] like Deb Webber and Kevin Cruickshank, have all been exposed as using fraudulent means of claiming psychic abilities, yet people still believe them.

If psychic ability existed, it would be known to all mankind, but because the "hits" by psychics have never been better than random chance, I am not encouraged to see them as anything else.

I an not any kind of "anti" regarding psi - I find the study of it fascinating, and as an amateur mentalist myself, I'd give my right arm to be able to tap into psi. Many people who don't know me well think I have psychic abilities through my ability to use probability to make predictions on cards and relations' names.

This is not to say I believe the world will end in 2012, I dont. People have also predicted the END since the beginning of time and this could be why science takes a dim view of these abilities.

One thing you need to realise is that science doesn't take any view of precognition, psychics or telepaths.

Once psi manages to present some evidence, it might get interested.

In all fairness, is it not easier to just allow others their beliefs and possibly step out that scientific box and explore a little more.? lol

Exploration has nothing to do with it - I'd bet any amount you like that I've spent exponentially more time investigating psi than you ever will. Like religion, psi is not all that happy with investigation and rarely stands up to scrutiny, so what you're actually asking me to do is believe in magic. Or, at the very least, let others believe in it.

If I could see any value in that at all, I probably would.

Have a happy Easter... Friends

No problem - some of my best friends are even christian.

PS. I wont forget the challenge, perhaps you can write a thread, to share with us, what you find out from the detectives after you have followed up. lol.

Please do!

I'm not blaming you for repeating what you've been shown, but I strongly object to the fraudulent means "psychics" go about making claims like that.

As I said, the fact is that no case has ever been solved by a psychic and not one dead body has ever been found by one.

[dizzydoll]

One thing you need to realise is that science doesn't take any view of precognition, psychics or telepaths.

Once psi manages to present some evidence, it might get interested.

Well I see you have proven my point. You neither believe my firsthand experience nor observation from others. I know the truth and you are not willing to to give me or any other the benefit of the doubt. You Sir are stuck in your head. lol. Until you get out and commune with your inner child, you will simply never know.



As many others before me I can see, we agree to disagree. lol

[The Atheist]

Well I see you have proven my point. You neither believe my firsthand experience nor observation from others.

Why would you say this, when my very last post said:

I am inclined to believe every word you've told me

It's obvious that I believe you.

I know the truth and you are not willing to to give me or any other the benefit of the doubt.

And now you've repeated it?

My mind is quite honestly boggling - I could not have been more specific about believing you.

What benefit of the doubt were you after?

That a woman in a rest home accurately picked a death and therefore it is proof of precognition?

You should probably treat "truth" as a proper noun with that usage.

You Sir are stuck in your head. lol. Until you get out and commune with your inner child, you will simply never know.

It's funny how all discussions on psi end up with this exact chant. Sweeping criticism under the mat by pleading for magick is just silly.

I have no problem with magick and use it as a central tenet in almost all of my kids' stories, but there's actually a danger in not being able to distinguish between fairytales and reality.

Carl Sagan nailed it here:

We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.

As many others before me I can see, we agree to disagree. lol

No problem there; there certainly are many others before you. I've never yet seen a True Bleever suddenly realise that weird stuff happens without needing to resort to ghosts, fairies and psi.

Luckily, the odd person who is wavering will realise that it's all just playing games when they see your "psychic encounter" paraphrased by my replies.

[dizzydoll]

Luckily, the odd person who is wavering will realise that it's all just playing games when they see your "psychic encounter" paraphrased by my replies.

HA, do you think they even care what you or I believe?



Welcome to my world...

Ogdens' Nut Gone Flake

...enjoy the trip with Happiness Stan on the back of that enormous fly-flallopper to see Mad John in the greenwood.

Life is just a bowl of All-bran

V. Peace.

[The Atheist]

HA, do you think they even care what you or I believe?

Fortunately, no, they don't give a toss what you or I believe, but when they see a claim of psychic ability, then see that the claim is simply "a sick woman in a rest home is going to die", they see that it's easily explained without needing fairies and next time they hear an anecdote, they will ask questions.

And the key is asking questions - it even says so in the bible - "ask and ye shall receive".

Kind of segues nicely back into philosophy, doesn't it?

[dizzydoll]

You know we're spending an awful amount of time together we may as well just get married, we certainly disagree as much as married couples do.

Did you listen to Happiness Stan? both... no, do it now!

and then, here's another...

Itchycoo Park