The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

As already said on this forum there are numerous works that are wrongly attributed to the young Beethoven. Which are said to be Beethoven's. Amongst the more ridiculous examples are the two great cantatas of state, WoO87 and WoO88.

But since you refer to instrumental music I might also refer to WoO4, a keyboard concerto, which has also been attributed to the young Beethoven. But which cannot possibly be his. (The surviving score is not in Beethoven's hand and it is written on paper of a special kind which was simply not produced after 1784) .See as proof of this articles such as 'L. van Beethoven 'Atti del convegno internazionale di studi' - Verona 1988, p. 41.

That particular watermark was known as 'Nic Heisler' and is also found in the 'Paris' symphony score of 'Mozart' !! (See. A Tyson's 'Studies of the Autograph Scores', p. 109). That paper comes from the Bonn area and was in use there until around 1784 at the latest. And it was also used at Mannheim.

And even some of the paper used in the Beethoven sketchbook known as 'Grasnick 1' (which is said to belong to Beethoven's period in Vienna after 1792) is refered to as 'Viennese' in an article by Dr. A. Chiarelli (1992) although it cannot possibly be from Vienna. Nor can it be as late as 1792. It surely dates before 1786. It too is 'Nic Heisler' watermarked paper.

She writes - 'We find the same watermark with the name 'Nic Heisler' in the Ludwig van Beethoven's Vienna sketchbook 'Grasnick 1'

In respect of the 3 quartets WoO36, also the Trio WoO37, the Hess Serenade 13 etc. - all of these works coming from Bonn - here too there are major problems. First because contemporary writer Ferdinand Ries refused to accept as genuine Beethoven WoO36 in a publication of 1832. And modern researcher Andreas Holschneider even writes 'the first preserved Beethoven's autographs are absolutely NOT in Beethoven's own handwriting'.

The situation becomes even more laughable with the attribution to W.A. Mozart in 1905 when two works KV25a and KV511a were said to be Mozart's. And when this was shown to be untrue they were later credited to.... the young Beethoven ! Although they are in the hand of neither. Nor were they ever credited to Mozart or to Beethoven during their entire lifetimes.

Luchesi, Kapellmeister at Bonn, is the obvious connection between Beethoven, Mozart and the late official career of Josef Haydn. And so this proves to be. These works undoubtedly come from the network of composers who were creating music for all 3 at different times. With Bonn being a vitally important place for both Haydn and Mozart's careers. Involved was Andrea Luchesi, who was of course the Kapellmeister at Bonn. Whose own music has so mysteriously disappeared. Wholesale. G. Taboga of Italy has done outstanding research on the life and career of this almost unknown Andrea Luchesi. In fact, Taboga's research on these issues is perhaps the most outstanding. Luchesi is a man whose entire career has been ignored by the music industry because it contradicts the icons of the modern music industry. Since Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven are major 'gods' of that music industry.

[yanni]

As I, at least, learned while in this thread, a franciscan monk Koch is said to have taught Mozart music and a Heinrich Koch was the first to comment on pupil Mozart and, as it has already been noticed elsewhere, Beethovens re quartets are, curiously, Mozartean in style.

And the two Kochs were one and the same with pianoplayer Belderbusch (and propably with Beethoven's Waldstein to), remember?

Koch's "modern" (1760-1780) composition theories and their influence on Haydn have already been highlighted by Elaine Rochelle Sisman ("Haydn and the classical variation").

...and I am certain his principles can be verified in his own operas (Gluck's) but "nobody" has ever thought doing so!

....and no musicologist has ever traced the provenance of "Koch's" deep theoretical music knowledge, obviously the result of long years of composition practice!

...and what a coincidence(!!): A rather mozartean Joseph Niesen publishing his Bonner personnen book in 2007 giving details on Beethoven's Babette Koch-Belderbusch!

Don't let these details delay you however, your holy cows must be served or else they'll turn against their creators.

Heil whatshisname!

[Musicology]

Yanni,

You can be sure Cocchi will not be absent from 'The Manufacture of Mozart'. Though not perhaps as prominent a feature as you would like. Still, highly important, for sure.

Yes, these early 'Beethoven' quartets are curiously Mozartean in style. That is certainly true. And it has often been pointed out to the Mozart industry. Who look at their watches and have an urgent appointment somewhere else ! They were well known at Bonn. And it was from Bonn those musical scores first came. They existed at the time Beethoven was a student there. He was familiar with them. But he did not compose them. The same Bonn which was visited by Josef Haydn both before and after both his tours of England. The same Bonn where Mozart had hopes of becoming Kapellmeister (but which post was of course already held by Andrea Luchesi and which was never realised). The same Bonn where the score of 'Mozart's' 'Magic Flute' was sent, even before its premiere in 1791. (Loaded as it is with music by Clementi, Paul Wranitsky and various others). The same Bonn whose musical archives (some of them) are today held at the Estense Library in Modena, Italy, including scores of many symphonies and masses attributed by tradition to 'Haydn' and also 'Mozart', although the musical records of Bonn show not a single 'Mozart' work in their achives in 1784. (This made at the time of the last music inventory made of that music archive). It was also from Bonn where the Grossmann theatre group (long associated with and employed by the Bonn Hofkapelle) emerged. Under the management of Andrea Luchesi. Which, in 1784 became a private touring company. The same theatrical and operatic group which, in 1785, at Frankfurt, staged 'Le Nozze di Figaro' (fully a year before the 'Mozart premiere' in Vienna on 1st May 1786). Again, hardly recognised by the Mozart industry. It was to Bonn, that the two Reicha's (Anton etc) came from serving earlier at the court of Oettingen Wallerstein in 1784 - shortly after the arrival in Bonn of the new elector, Mozart's friend and patron, Max Franz. And it was Oettingen Wallerstein where Rossler was based (whose Requiem Mass was performed in honour of Mozart and even in 'Mozart's' name when it was performed in Prague in late 1791 at the memorial service for Mozart). The mass of evidence clearly shows Bonn was a vital link in the network which presided over the manufacture of the iconic status of Josef Haydn, W.A. Mozart and even early Beethoven.

And, to illustrate how the music industry works and has worked since the early 19th century onwards, during the time when Beethoven was already being given legendary status (prior to his death in 1827) an equally famous composer of chamber music George Onslow (1784-1853) was in just as great demand as Beethoven ! Although he, today, is virtually unknown, unperformed and virtually nobody has ever heard of him or his music !! George Onslow was rated by Schumann and by numerous other writers of the time as the finest composer of chamber music in all of Europe. Even above Beethoven. A view shared by numerous German and other music publishers where his music was instantly published and was very famous.

The musical 'amnesia' of the priests who edit and polish the musical statues on Easter Island is amazing ! Here is a rare chance to hear some of Onslow's music. A major composer of Beethoven's own mature period. With a known association with Vienna and Beethoven's own circle of influence.

You might listen to Onslow's 2nd and 3rd Symphonies ! If they are not equal to those of Beethoven and very often strikingly similar I am Chinese !!!

The bottom line is this. What we believe and are taught of that crucial era (from Mozart to Beethoven) is highly invented and suppresses vast amounts of information. I will try to get parts of Onslow's symphonies put here soon.

So, yes, certainly. We are describing here an entire network of composers, publishers, publicists, managers, patrons and propagandists whose value judgements and whose influence accounts for the construction of the musical icons which literally dominate our understanding of 'musical history' - especially in the Hadyn, Mozart, Beethoven period. We have only, so far, scratched the surface.

My aim is not so much to attribute famous works of that 'holy trinity' to any particular other composer in areas where there are real doubts. But to show, from many kinds of evidence these works are definitely not those of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven in spite of 200 years of tradition and invention. Focusing, as said, on the legendary life and career of W.A. Mozart. And showing (by information that is almost never appreciated) how that status was invented and raised to giant, dominating size. The one we know today.

Not forgetting the contribution made to both Mozart and Beethoven's reputations by Cartellieri. Virtually forgotten also.

Here are two movements from Onslow's Op. 79

George Onslow (1784-1853)

Op. 79/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sZc4...eature=related

Op. 79/3 (Scherzo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1aA...eature=related

As I, at least, learned while in this thread, a franciscan monk Koch is said to have taught Mozart music and a Heinrich Koch was the first to comment on pupil Mozart and, as it has already been noticed elsewhere, Beethovens re quartets are, curiously, Mozartean in style.

And the two Kochs were one and the same with pianoplayer Belderbusch (and propably with Beethoven's Waldstein to), remember?

Koch's "modern" (1760-1780) composition theories and their influence on Haydn have already been highlighted by Elaine Rochelle Sisman ("Haydn and the classical variation").

...and I am certain his principles can be verified in his own operas (Gluck's) but "nobody" has ever thought doing so!

....and no musicologist has ever traced the provenance of "Koch's" deep theoretical music knowledge, obviously the result of long years of composition practice!

...and what a coincidence(!!): A rather mozartean Joseph Niesen publishing his Bonner personnen book in 2007 giving details on Beethoven's Babette Koch-Belderbusch!

Don't let these details delay you however, your holy cows must be served or else they'll turn against their creators.

Heil whatshisname!

[Musicology]

Here is a remarkable movement from Onslow's last (4th Symphony) -

George Onslow (1784-1853)
Symphony No. 4
Opus 71

1st Movement
Hanover Philharmonic Radio NDR
Germany
J.Goritzki
(Introduzione/ Largo/Allegro spirituoso)

http://www.mediafire.com/?nz2nommdm4b

[yanni]

Your difficulty to really understand and live with, as a musicologist, the issues arising from demasking the phantom can but be excused: An alltogether different world, not just in music!

George Onslow's biography is somehow limited in details, his blood connection to his own father already doubtfull. Around 1787 Chastellux was also married (for the nth time) to an english girl (name Plunkett if I remember correctly) and a son came to life later but there is no record of what happened to him.

Regarding "François-Jean de Beauvoir*** de Chastellux's" later life marriage to Marie-Josephine-Charlotte-Brigitte de Plunkett and their son Alfred: A separate chapter will follow later on herein, once relative research is sufficiently completed. http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index/p...ial/clist.html
(post #4 of "Melchior Grimm revisited" herein)

She came from Duc d'Orleans circle.


Good luck with your book.

Best regards.

[Musicology]

Yes, it was a great difficulty for years. But, like an onion, its layers eventually peeled away.

Duc d'Orleans ? He was the sponsor for the French printing of the famous 'Violin School' - a work published in the year of W.A. Mozart's birth, 1756, (first in Austria/Germany) and later in that Paris edition and dutch in Holland, text based on the plagiarised and still unpublished violin treatise of Tartini. That book appearing in the name of none other than a certain Leopold Mozart. Just a coincidence, of course ! As is the link between Leopold Mozart and various music publishing journals and agencies. Leopold Mozart had an extensive network of contacts through these musical journals and acting as a sales agent for music in Salzburg. The same Duc d'Orleans was an active occultist. And friend of the Mozarts in Paris. As you say yourself, 'the circle around Duc D'Orleans'. Which included Barons and patrons of Mozart in Venice, Italy, Germany and Austria. Including England.

Onslow was far too clearly associated with the elite aristocracy of the British Empire. (aka East India Company). So he and his musical career had to be virtually edited out of books on music history. It was a vast network. You are right about Onslow's 'pedigree'. Rather a giveaway so he and the music associated with him are today virtually unknown.

And then there is of course Thomas Linley/Bath/the British elites of that time surrounding the patronage there of art and music. And the circumstances surrounding Linley's accidental death at that castle lake in 1778. The 'English Mozart', no less.

Best regards

Your difficulty to really understand and live with, as a musicologist, the issues arising from demasking the phantom can but be excused: An alltogether different world, not just in music!

George Onslow's biography is somehow limited in details, his blood connection to his own father already doubtfull. Around 1787 Chastellux was also married (for the nth time) to an english girl (name Plunkett if I remember correctly) and a son came to life later but there is no record of what happened to him.

Regarding "François-Jean de Beauvoir*** de Chastellux's" later life marriage to Marie-Josephine-Charlotte-Brigitte de Plunkett and their son Alfred: A separate chapter will follow later on herein, once relative research is sufficiently completed. http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/index/p...ial/clist.html
(post #4 of "Melchior Grimm revisited" herein)

She came from Duc d'Orleans circle.


Good luck with your book.

Best regards.

[yanni]

A question often overlooked (because of the impossibility of an answer) is that of the fate of 18th elite's "children born out of marriage".

Some were trained as musicians propably, like Onslow and maybe Beethoven as well (a previous baby Ludwig dying and rumors of Ludwig #2 as an illegitimate child of a king or other) and with "Koch-Bache-Figaro" always ready to accomodate all, no wonder so many composers were produced at the time, all sharing the same more or less "principles".

"Koch" was Duc d'Orleans chief spy, hence the many aliases he used.

Regards.

Yes, it was a great difficulty for years. But, like an onion, its layers eventually peeled away.

Duc d'Orleans ? He was the sponsor for the French printing of the famous 'Violin School' - a work published in the year of W.A. Mozart's birth, 1756, (first in Austria/Germany) and later in that Paris edition and dutch in Holland, text based on the plagiarised and still unpublished violin treatise of Tartini. That book appearing in the name of none other than a certain Leopold Mozart. Just a coincidence, of course ! As is the link between Leopold Mozart and various music publishing journals and agencies. Leopold Mozart had an extensive network of contacts through these musical journals and acting as a sales agent for music in Salzburg. The same Duc d'Orleans was an active occultist. And friend of the Mozarts in Paris. As you say yourself, 'the circle around Duc D'Orleans'. Which included Barons and patrons of Mozart in Venice, Italy, Germany and Austria. Including England.

Onslow was far too clearly associated with the elite aristocracy of the British Empire. (aka East India Company). So he and his musical career had to be virtually edited out of books on music history. It was a vast network. You are right about Onslow's 'pedigree'. Rather a giveaway so he and the music associated with him are today virtually unknown.

And then there is of course Thomas Linley/Bath/the British elites of that time surrounding the patronage there of art and music. And the circumstances surrounding Linley's accidental death at that castle lake in 1778. The 'English Mozart', no less.

Best regards

[Musicology]

Ah, yes, this is a major subject. There are 'rumours' about Beethoven. For sure. And we have the strange early life story of Beethoven's Vienna colleague Antonio Casimir Cartellieri (who, after he shared a concert in Vienna became associated with 'editing' Mozart stage works for performance in Bohemia for Lobkowitz). Cartellieri suddenly turned up in his youth in Vienna as a music pupil of Antonio Salieri. In fact, the first surviving musical work of Cartellieri is a chamber work dedicated to Antonio Salieri by Cartellieri.

Then we have the strange childhood of Anton Reicha. Who turned up in Bonn with his uncle from Oettingen Wallerstein to join the same orchestra as the young Beethoven c. 1782/3. Reicha later becoming a composition professor at the Paris Conservatory.

Not forgetting an earlier child of the Mozart family (also named Amadeus) who died not long after his birth, this a year or so before Wolfgang's own birth.

And, of Beethoven, there is the story of how he supposedly dedicated his 3rd Symphony, Opus 55, the ‘Eroica’ to Napoleon Bonaparte, only to scribble it out in disgust once Napoleon had himself crowned Emperor. (Or so goes the story, at least).

In fact the title of the first (London) publication of the score of Beethoven’s ’Eroica’ Symphony which first uses this dedication dates from not earlier than 1809 to an un-named hero ("Sinfonia Eroica composta per celebrare la morte d'un Eroe") but later reads "per festeggiare il sovvenire di un grand'uomo". Apart from the famous theory about the work being dedicated to Napoleon, Beethoven's acquaintance with one Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia, who was revered as a hero by his contemporaries and killed in a battle with French troops in 1806 has also been considered as another candidate for that strange dedication. Still others have suggested Beethoven might have had an purely imaginary hero in mind

I’d like to suggest the ’hero’ Beethoven had in mind in that dedication was none other than this little known musical colleague and friend of his early Vienna period Antonio Casimir Cartellieri (who had died in the service of Prince Lobkowitz, patron of Beethoven, on 2nd September 1807 at such a young age). Prince Franz Joseph Maximilian von Lobkowitz was a great music lover and passionate violinist and had a private orchestra and employed excellent musicians for a string quartet. He certainly became one of the most important patrons of Ludwig van Beethoven and was interested in performing new works of the composer in his palace. His father before him was a patron of Mozart. Particularly noteworthy is Beethoven's Third Symphony, the so-called "Eroica" was rehearsed several times at the Prince's palace in Vienna before its first public performance. Lobkowitz was the same employer, in fact, of that same almost unknown C.A. Cartellieri who, records clearly show was a close musical associate of Beethoven for some years. As for Onslow, again, there are questions.

We know too Cartellieri was described shortly after his arrival in Vienna as a 'pupil of Abbe George Vogler'. The same Vogler who was associated with Mozart at Mannheim. He was a member of the Order of the Golden Spur, the same as Mozart. (In fact, he was a papal chamberlain, virtually the same rank as a Cardinal). And this same Vogler (whose official story disguises his real significance in the history of music) was even described as the 'teacher' of Cartellieri in those first days in Vienna. In fact, a great symphony by Cartellieri was performed at the Vienna concert where both he and Beethoven were the featured composers. The name of Cartellieri is largely forgotten today although, at the time, he made a tremendous impact. As much as Beethoven himself, in fact. The two were closely associated. Through the same Prince Lobkowtiz. Who snapped him up for service in Bohemia shortly after that concert. Where he remained until his sudden death at an early age.

The fact that the concert impresario of Joseph Haydn (Salomon) lived in the same house as young Beethoven at Bonn is, well, sheer coincidence, of course (LOL).

The coincidences are remarkable, for sure !!

[yanni]

Certainly.....but you "failed mentioning" Beethoven's other patron, Count Oppersdorf and his chateau in upper Glogau with an orchestra and a theater big enough to stage his oppern in his (Carl Ludwig Cocceji's) Dorf.

(http://www.mattnaughtin.com/Beethoven-Symphony4.pdf)

He is, most propably, the same man as Prince Lobkowitz, owner of another chateau famous for its theater and links to opera musiciens, the Jezeri-Eisenberg chateau (in Sagan, Bohemia) were Gluck was allegedly raised .

Did you know that another alias he used was "Montferrat" ie "Eisenberg"?

Anyway FERDINAND Philipp Apostol Joseph Johann Nepomuck Adalbert Anastaz 6.Fürst von Lobkowicz, Herzog von Sagan had a theater and an orchestra in his bohemian chateau too and he did die in Wien 14.1.1784 (hah-hah), his Sagan property then sold by his successor, JOSEPH FRANZ MAXIMILIAN Fardinand Karl 7.Fürst von Lobkowicz, last Herzog von Sagan after 3.5.1786 to Birons von Kurland (then serving his Russia).

Emperor Joseph II bestowed upon the 7th Prince Lobkowicz, Joseph Franz Maximilian Lobkowicz (1772-1816), the title Duke of Roudnice in 1786.Joseph Franz Maximilian remains best known as a great lover of music and patron of Beethoven, who dedicated numerous works to Lobkowicz, including the 3rd (Eroica)(!!), 5th and 6th (Pastoral) Symphonies, the Opus 18 String Quartets and the Triple Concerto.

IE Mozart's and Beethoven's one and only "Lobkowicz" was "Waldstein" who introduced Beethoven to russian prince Lichnowicz (his neighbogh in Eisenberg-Sagan but in their biographies they share the same chateau).

(He also had a son "Gleichenstein" btw)

Life is less worth living without fairytales and as such you should never forget(hah-hah) Oppersdorf and his Seven Dwarfs....

...mit Gluck!

[Musicology]

Yes,

You refer to the Jezeri-Eisenberg chateau (in Sagan, Bohemia) where Gluck was allegedly raised. Owned by Lobkowitz. I've made quite a study of the Lobkowitz patronage of Mozart and Beethoven. That estate was one of two in Bohemia where Cartellieri spent much of his short life. And the extraordinary circumstances of Cartellieri's death are recorded in an unpublished document made by his son, who later was employed by the same Lobkowitz family in Prague. (In fact, the whereabouts of the vast music archives of the Bonn Hofkappelle were for years manipulated after their evacuation from Bonn in 1794), arriving at Prague. Though the truth of that is concealed behind much misinformation. Those music archives (formerly held at Bonn) provide some of the most devastating evidence of entire symphonies and masses being falsely attributed to Haydn and Mozart. Many of these documents today at Modena, in Italy. What little has been written about them tends to be false. The 'official' story is they were made in the early 19th century. But the watermarks clearly show they come (for the most part) from Bonn. And they include remarkable evidences of many 'Mozart' symphonies having existed years before they were supposedly 'composed', by him. The same can be said of numerous symphonies and masses attributed to 'Haydn'. Each has its own story. But their orchestration and watermarks (plus other evidence) show beyond reasonable doubt these were manipulated. The music archives of the Lobkowitz's at Jezeri-Eisenberg are just as vital. Here we find evidence of work being done on 'Mozart' operas even before their first publication. (During the time Cartellieri and his musical colleague Anton Wranitsky were working there. The other Wranitsky (Paul) being the 'manager' of the musical estate of Mozart after 1791 with the collaboration of Constanze Mozart).

And which person conducted the premiere of Beethoven's 'Eroica' in Vienna ?

Another important patron of Cartellieri (also associated with early Beethoven) was Count Oborski/Oborsky). I believe it was from Oborsky that Cartellieri first went in to service with Prince Lobkowitz. The ancestor of Count Oborsky was one Bishop Tomasz Oborski at Kalwaria Zebrydowska near Krakov in Poland. Who declared a Marian image in 1656 that had been donated to the church there as miraculous and consented to its public exposure in the church. Around which grew the cult known today at Kalwaria Zebrydowska. Mikolaj Stanislaw Oborski: 1576-1646, Jesuit and writer, joined the Jesuit order in 1602. Investigated the miracles of Stanislaw Kostka and associated with art and culture of the counter-reformation.

Again, the composer Vanhal (close associate of Mozart in Vienna but largely hidden from appreciation) was similarly associated with religious communities. As was Josef Haydn. There is powerful evidence the careers of both Josef Haydn and Mozart were 'managed' by interests of the Holy Roman Empire at virtually every stage. Indeed, at Esterhazy that musical regime became closely associated with a religious community nearby that was of vital importance to Josef Haydn throughout most of his career. The same in Vienna. Many tours of young Mozart in western Europe would have been logistically impossible without a network of monasteries and 'hospitals' that existed right across the Holy Roman Empire. These huge tours of the Mozarts were not so much arranged by Leopold's contacts in correspondence with far away patrons and music managers, as we might suppose. They were arranged mostly through this wide and obvious network of church properties. In effect, the close fraternity surrounding Mozart used the resources of the Catholic Church widely. Which explains the absence of much correspondence between Leopold Mozart and his supposed 'patrons' prior to those tours. And the close association of Mozart's final years with monastery musicians. (Abbe Maximilian Stadler and Sussmayr, for example, whose role at that time in managing Mozart's official career is indisputable. The same Stadler undoubtedly associated with later creation of the 'Requiem' together with various others).

Lobkowitz was, of course, a member of the Order of the Golden Fleece. Reserved for the Catholic aristocracy. So that only within the context of the Holy Roman Empire do the background of these careers begin to make sense.

Yes, the connection between Beethoven's 'Eroica' and Lobkowitz. This is explained by the fact that Lobkowitz, resident in Vienna for much of the year and home in Bohemia at other times, had the services of both Cartellieri and Beethoven. Again supporting the view that the dedication on that Beethoven symphony is to his recently lost musical colleague, Cartellieri.

That most of the piano concertos of 'Mozart' were put together for publication after Mozart's death is, to me, a certainty. The same is true of bringing the operas to a form that they were able to be published in his name. Again, this occurring in the years after 1791. The concertos involving much work at places such as Salzburg and, later still, Offenbach with the publisher Andre. So that they finally appeared in print often a decade after Mozart's death in 1791, but not before. This great music involving the input of several composers. And, as for arriving at their final forms, in terms of the operas, there are the 'Mozart' opera manuscripts at Florence.

The whole story is huge. But the broad outlines are clear enough. The careers of these individuals were hugely 'managed' by vested interests who, from the 19th century onwards, became the music industry and who, to this day, preside over 'musicology' (so-called). J.N. Forkel would have laughed. But then, Forkel anticipated exactly what would come if the forces of commerce, conservatism and of popular fashion began to dictate what is taught and believed in these areas.

Regards

Certainly.....but you "failed mentioning" Beethoven's other patron, Count Oppersdorf and his chateau in upper Glogau with an orchestra and a theater big enough to stage his oppern in his (Carl Ludwig Cocceji's) Dorf.

(http://www.mattnaughtin.com/Beethoven-Symphony4.pdf)

He is, most propably, the same man as Prince Lobkowitz, owner of another chateau famous for its theater and links to opera musiciens, the Jezeri-Eisenberg chateau (in Sagan, Bohemia) were Gluck was allegedly raised .

Did you know that another alias he used was "Montferrat" ie "Eisenberg"?

Anyway FERDINAND Philipp Apostol Joseph Johann Nepomuck Adalbert Anastaz 6.Fürst von Lobkowicz, Herzog von Sagan had a theater and an orchestra in his bohemian chateau too and he did die in Wien 14.1.1784 (hah-hah), his Sagan property then sold by his successor, JOSEPH FRANZ MAXIMILIAN Fardinand Karl 7.Fürst von Lobkowicz, last Herzog von Sagan after 3.5.1786 to Birons von Kurland (then serving his Russia).

Emperor Joseph II bestowed upon the 7th Prince Lobkowicz, Joseph Franz Maximilian Lobkowicz (1772-1816), the title Duke of Roudnice in 1786.Joseph Franz Maximilian remains best known as a great lover of music and patron of Beethoven, who dedicated numerous works to Lobkowicz, including the 3rd (Eroica)(!!), 5th and 6th (Pastoral) Symphonies, the Opus 18 String Quartets and the Triple Concerto.

Life is less worth living without fairytales and as such you should never forget(hah-hah) Oppersdorf and his Seven Dwarfs....

...mit Gluck!

[yanni]

I can't read polish but it looks as if "Stanisława Kostki" (Wypis z procesu kanonizacji św. Stanisława Kostki) and his contemporary, father Nicholaus "Caussin"-Cocchi, had a great deal in common!

You may forever and perhaps wisely avoid issues raised by yourstruly but if fairytales were neccessary to comfort those living then, the truth is, for me at least, the only way to live today and tommorow.

You are attacking "church" but they used it, just like music, as a tool to influence and govern, much like they do today!

[Musicology]

I again agree with what you say here.

It was of course the state/organised church alliance which underpinned much of western European history from the start. The extent of that influence in the careers of Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart (in particular) is deliberately hidden because moves towards a 'secularised' society of the kind pushed by the 'enlightenment' could not admit to its true origins - being none other than the same vested interests as before. So that these iconic composers appear to 'float' through the society and the musical world of their own times, disembodied and rarely appreciated within their real musical and other contexts. The average music lover hears little, if any of the music of their 'lesser' contemporaries and their own influences. It's deliberate and it's relentless. So dozens, even hundreds of names are buried, deliberately edited out of the 'official' history, regardless of their own talents, often their clear association with the 'giants', with all the absurdities this creates.

Easter Island is far from where most people live. So too are the icons 'they' have created. They are very, very far, from the musical, social and other realities of those times.

Yes, I thought Stanisława Kostki would be of interest.

According to Macek, the first performances of Mozart operas at the residences of Lobkowitz took place at Raudnitz in Bohemia in the fall of 1798, thus before the theatre itself was actually completed. An ensemble of singers from Prague, organized by Franz Strobach, Kapellmeister at the Lobkowitz Loretto Church, was invited to perform Die Entführung aus dem Serail and Cosě fan tutte; the orchestra was enlarged with the addition of local amateur players.

Here is music equal to anything of Beethoven in Onslow's 4th (last) symphony -

Georg Onslow
Symphony No. 4
3rd Movement
(Andantino molto cantabile)

http://www.mediafire.com/?2ntzty2ni4h

Regardless of what we think about composers and the true origins of music that is associated with them, I don't think anyone would disagree this music deserves to be recognised and heard alongside that of Beethoven and others.

I can't read polish but it looks as if "Stanisława Kostki" (Wypis z procesu kanonizacji św. Stanisława Kostki) and his contemporary, father Nicholaus "Caussin"-Cocchi, had a great deal in common!

You may forever and perhaps wisely avoid issues raised by yourstruly but if fairytales were neccessary to comfort those living then, the truth is, for me at least, the only way to live today and tommorow.

You are attacking "church" but they used it, just like music, as a tool to influence and govern, much like they do today!

[yanni]

Many Lobkowiczs are listed in the list of knights of Golden Fleece including our previous "pair" linked to Beethoven, Mozart and indirectly Goethe (and there is as well, perhaps in another site, the first Lobkowicz on record an "Adam Gallus" of same chronology as father "Mikolay" Caussin-Kostki, highly revered by the Kalwaria Zebrydowska-Loretto cult).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Golden_Fleece.

The order remained loyal to Rome (opposing Henry the 8th) until Napoleon's fall (with Wellington joining its ranks then):

"Reform" had an alltogether different meaning already by late 1780's however, the fields of America ready and waiting to be ploughed (as Matheus "Kostkiusco"- among others-would surely attest).

If only I could be given access to Napoleon's views on/correspondence with "Raynal"! That's the only unclarified and hence intriguing part of my hero's story.

...and...no, classical music was access restricted to those "initiated few" ...and it was a much smaller world then, don't let the great number of aliases (or your ideefixes) confuse you!

As such a list of his aliases is a must.

...and your Onslow was, well, Onslow, half "galiani" as well!

I again agree with what you say here.

It was of course the state/organised church alliance which underpinned much of western European history from the start. The extent of that influence in the careers of Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart (in particular) is deliberately hidden because moves towards a 'secularised' society of the kind pushed by the 'enlightenment' could not admit to its true origins - being none other than the same vested interests as before. So that these iconic composers appear to 'float' through the society and the musical world of their own times, disembodied and rarely appreciated within their real musical and other contexts. The average music lover hears little, if any of the music of their 'lesser' contemporaries and their own influences. It's deliberate and it's relentless. So dozens, even hundreds of names are buried, deliberately edited out of the 'official' history, regardless of their own talents, often their clear association with the 'giants', with all the absurdities this creates.

Easter Island is far from where most people live. So too are the icons 'they' have created. They are very, very far, from the musical, social and other realities of those times.

Yes, I thought Stanisława Kostki would be of interest.

According to Macek, the first performances of Mozart operas at the residences of Lobkowitz took place at Raudnitz in Bohemia in the fall of 1798, thus before the theatre itself was actually completed. An ensemble of singers from Prague, organized by Franz Strobach, Kapellmeister at the Lobkowitz Loretto Church, was invited to perform Die Entführung aus dem Serail and Cosě fan tutte; the orchestra was enlarged with the addition of local amateur players.

Here is music equal to anything of Beethoven in Onslow's 4th (last) symphony -

Georg Onslow
Symphony No. 4
3rd Movement
(Andantino molto cantabile)

http://www.mediafire.com/?2ntzty2ni4h

Regardless of what we think about composers and the true origins of music that is associated with them, I don't think anyone would disagree this music deserves to be recognised and heard alongside that of Beethoven and others.

[Musicology]

Yes. So what we have are members of the various fraternities of the now 'secularised' enlightenment also being members of the fraternities of the conservatives of the old Holy Roman Empire ! Including Lobkowitz and others. Proving beyond reasonable doubt the 'enlightenment' was really a period of transition within society. From virtually the time of 'British' Freemasonry onwards (1717).

You are also right both Napoleon and Wellington were members of the same Order of the Golden Fleece ! Proof positive of just how deeply the facts of the British feudal 'establishment' really go. (All the way back to the Norman invasion of 1066 and the feudal system imposed at that time in England).

The fraternities virtually controlled the music industry in England from the early 18th century onwards.

I hope you get a chance to hear that Onslow music.

Cheers !

Many Lobkowiczs are listed in the list of knights of Golden Fleece including our previous "pair" linked to Beethoven, Mozart and indirectly Goethe (and there is as well, perhaps in another site, the first Lobkowicz on record an "Adam Gallus" of same chronology as father "Mikolay" Caussin-Kostki, highly revered by the Kalwaria Zebrydowska-Loretto cult).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._Golden_Fleece.

The order remained loyal to Rome (opposing Henry the 8th) until Napoleon's fall (with Wellington joining its ranks then):

"Reform" had an alltogether different meaning already by late 1780's, the fields of America ready and waiting to be ploughed (as Matheus "Kostkiusco" and not only would surely attest).

If only I could be given access to Napoleon's views on/correspondence with "Raynal"! That's the only unclarified and hence intriguing part of my hero's story.

...and...no, classical music was access restricted to those "initiated few" ...and it was a much smaller world then, don't let the great number of aliases (or your ideefixes) confuse you!

As such a list of his aliases is a must.

[yanni]

You cannot deny that financial interests define "change" (Church included) and you don't really still support a "Russeau/Gluck-antireformist" theory, do you?

As for classical music: No, I never liked it (for the fate of my grandfather who also sang Faust while touring the lands of The Golden Fleece, Krakow included).