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The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!
Alternative Title: The Manufactures of Beethoven and Goethe (In continuation of http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=46636 The Manufacture of Mozart)
This is an open invitation to all musicloving readers to participate in solving the title's puzzle
to find the identity of the franciscan monk "Wiilibald Koch" said to have taught piano to Beethoven sometime before 1781, his possible family link to his contemporary lexicographer Heinrich Christoph Koch (a musicology puzzle himself), or to the other many Beethoven related Kochs, a family owning a high class tavern known as the Zehrgarten in Bonn run by the widow Koch(Anna Maria),around 1790,where the Beethovens used to dine or his/their link to a highly admired (Weimar, Leipzig, Hamburg and Vienna) theaterman, Gottfried Heinrich Koch (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Gottfried_Koch) or, finally his/their eventual link to a "Samuel von Cocceji (ursprünglicher Name: Koch oder Cocq)".
A letter by Ludwig's brother quoted herebelow
to the publisher Johann André in Offenbach:
Vienna, 23 November 1802
We have received your letter asking for some of my brother's pieces, for which we thank you very much.
At the moment we have nothing but a symphony and a grand piano concerto, each priced at 300 florins. If you should want three piano sonatas I shall have to have 900 florins for them, all in Viennese currency, and these you cannot have immediately, but one every five or six weeks, as my brother doesn't bother much any more with such trifles, but writes only oratorios, operas, etc.
We would expect eight copies of any piece you might print. In any case, whether you care for the pieces or not, please answer, because otherwise I would be delayed in selling them to somebody else.
We also have two adagios for violin with complete instrumental accompaniment which would cost 135 florins, and two little easy sonatas of two movements each which are yours for 280 florins. Please give my best wishes to our friend Koch. Your most humble
K. v. Beethoven
R. k. Treasury Official
Note: Johann André relates to the creation of Mozart myth having "collected" the greatest part of Mozart's correspondence following his 1791 "death". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Andr%C3%A9
Prize: The winner may chose between a box of turkish delight or a bottle of greek ouzo!
Last edited by yanni; 03-26-2010 at 05:16 AM.
Reason: add Heinrich Gottfried Koch and Samuel von Cocceji.
Any link between Herr Willibald Koch (organist of the Franciscans at Bonn) and Gioacchino Cocchi would certainly be of interest. Especially since Gioacchino Cocchi died on 11th November 1796. The letter you have quoted dates from 1802.
For the record, the Koch family are known to have been organ builders for centuries. In Moravia and Eastern Europe.
Perhaps more interesting is one F.X. Kuhac (Koch). Croatian musicologist and music critic. (1834-1911). He pointed out the Croatian origin of several of Beethoven’s and Haydn’s themes -
‘Beethoven i hrvatske narodne popover’ - Beethoven and his use of Croatian folksongs‘, Prosvjeta, ii (1894), 17–19
Frankly, I do not see any link between G. Cocchi (d.1796) and the organist Koch associated with early Beethoven. But maybe you can surprise us. I do not rule it out but it seems unlikely for the above reason.
In my opinion there were different branches of the Koch family. Not just one. Who were musically active over centuries. Unless you have hard evidence that the Koch of Bonn was one and the same person as G. Cocchi I don't see any progress on this issue. I remain convinced we are talking here of a network of composers, editors, publishers and propagandists. This is as true of Mozart as it is of early Beethoven. Since they shared the same patrons etc.
Anyway, you might tell us if you have some information. As I will do the same.
Last edited by Musicology; 03-11-2010 at 03:38 PM.
Here is an entry from the website of the Beethovenhaus museum in Bonn -
In autumn 1792 Beethoven left his hometown Bonn to move to Vienna. On his departure his friends presented him with a Stammbuch (farewell album). The second album belonged to Babette Koch, who later became Countess Belderbusch, with whom Beethoven was closely associated in his youth. It is bound in blue silk and contains 41 entries. These albums form an important addition to the few documents pertaining to Beethoven's youth in Bonn.
And here is a painting of Babette Koch (1771-1807). She was therefore around the same age as Beethoven himself at the time when that album was made.
Belderbusch of Anna Barbara, nee Koch (June 28th 1771 in Bonn, † November 25 1807) was a childhood friend of Ludwig van Beethoven and the wife of Anton Maria Karl von Belderbusch.
Babette named Anna Barbara Koch, came from the host family of the inn on the square Zehrgarten of Bonn, which included also a small bookstore. Many guests were students at the Rheinische Friedrich-Wilhelms University, Bonn, as well as members of the * reading society*, including Ludwig van Beethoven, with whom she had friendly relations. June 1802 married Count Anton Maria Karl von Belderbusch and lived with him at Castle Miel. Sie verstarb 1807 bei der Geburt ihres vierten Kindes. She died in 1807 at the birth of her fourth child.
Of people and life in Bonn, at the time of the young Beethoven and Babette Koch Belderbusch. Neue Forschungserkenntnisse . New research findings. In: Bonner Geschichtsblätter 23/1969 . In: Bonner Geschichtsblätter 23/1969. S. 51-121. P. 51-121.
Max Braubach (Hrsg.): Die Stammbücher Beethovens und der Babette Koch . Max Braubach (ed.): The stock books of Beethoven and Babette Koch. Bonn 1995, ISBN 3-88188-008-9 . Bonn 1995, ISBN 3-88188-008-9.
Josef Niesen: Bonner Personenlexikon . etc.
We know for certain the Bonn Reading Society was an Illuminatist meeting place. That Waldstein and others (noted patrons of the young Beethoven) were associated with it, as was the Bonn music publisher Simrock, and also Ch. G. Neefe. So that the Koch family moved in those circles. And that there is clear evidence of British aristocratic support for the Bonn elector coming from England. Then we also know that Beethoven's family were financially helped by the British through George Cressner, the British representative to Bonn around the time of Beethoven's childhood.
When we reduce these things to their most basic state, we are left with the fact that the 'secularisation' of those times, culturally, involved patronisation from within the Holy Roman Empire and also from elites of the British mercantile empire of the musical careers and reputations of Haydn, Beethoven and also Mozart.
Later still was association in Bonn with Mozart's career through numerous fraternal people. Including Baron Knigge. (Who, we know for sure, was patronised financially - and his father before him - by the royal family of England). This is the same Baron Knigge who is credited with writing the first German text of 'Le Nozze di Figaro' (later published at Bonn by Simrock). Or, at least, his daughter. Though this too is disputed.
Last edited by Musicology; 03-11-2010 at 06:32 PM.
You'll never solve any puzzle like this, halfheartedly and at a loss whom or what to trust, what's right, what's wrong.
Before touching Weimar's "Cocqs"-a prerequisite for any beginner's initiation-check, verify and confirm:
a)Cocchi's year of death: 1796, you say but there are certain trustworthy sources online who claim he died post 1804 (following my relative wrong input some three years ago) and your source is "Grove", hah-hah.
Cocchi (or a younger brother perhaps but on a 10% propability) died 1819 in Vyborg.
b)"Belderbusch", who is included in the french lexicon of famous aliases (the book's actual title fails me but it pops up when you google for the name), Caspar Anton von der Heyden genannt Belderbusch (* 5. Januar 1722 in Montzen; † 2. Januar 1784 auf Schloss Miel bei Bonn) war Deutschordensritter und Premierminister in Kurköln ......and another alias of Cocchi, but we'll leave that lie a while, along with the missing "Koch leaves", the mysterious music autographs"!!
c)Organ builders family, as you rightly say, but the first "Kochs" came to Bohemia from Mugello, Tuscany (and some other Cocchis from Livorno), all florentine Cocchinis-Caccinis, bringing their instruments and music archives along!
d)Anyone remotely associated with music may easily link and identify Heinrich Christoph Koch to/as Rousseau, Gluck, Grimm, Philidor and many other "etceteras" since "they" all shared the same revolutionary-reformist new opera theories and furthermore musicology today totaly, absolutely and miserably fails to explain the broad and deep opera music knowledge of any and all the above. There are countless indications of "their cooperation" in specific operas, some of which have already been highlighted. Their use of winds and later flute introduction (look for relative Koch museum-items, specificaly a 10 or 14 Horns-Harmonica combination) are other strong indications. The french (Caussin or Cochin)are well known still as violin manufacturers.
e)We already discussed Knigge and his relations to "Saint Germain" and the german Illuminati (as we did Goethe's relations to von Gleichen-Russwurm) and I'll certainly not discuss "Mozart's" Figaro again.
All the above are neccessary only in the absence of an "all aliases mastertimeline" which confirms, beyond reasonable doubt, that Cocchi, omnipotent and tireless indeed, is the father of "modern european opera", his (Gluck's) operas the grandchildren of Giulio Caccini's Novela Musica and Orpheo!
"Love never dies", as the phantom now claims, but, instead of a prize, I'll have to charge you a fee if you keep on asking for guidance.
BTW There propably was one and only Waldstein: "Mine", ie Casanova's/Myslivecek's, ie "Koch" Cocchi who was provided a cover (as Waldstein serving in India etc) when his biography was written, much later.
Last edited by yanni; 03-15-2010 at 01:04 AM.
Reason: add Belderbusch to aliases.
I am not trying to solve any 'puzzle' about Koch. You are. Because you invented the puzzle yourself.
I have taken the time to give you some information about Koch, inn-manager in Bonn. Who was friendly with Beethoven's father. Whose daughter was friendly with the young Beethoven.
So it's less than 24 hours and you have again invented another alias.
Because you believe the Franciscan monk in Bonn (also named Koch) was the same person as Gluck. Alias Rousseau. Alias Baron Grimm. etc.
So now there are no less than two Kochs in Bonn. Both of these (we assume) aliases of the same person. The organist at Bonn, Willem Koch. And he is a different person from Koch, the inn manager at Bonn, isn't he ? Or is he still another alias ? Why use the name of Koch if he wishes to hide his 'alias' (Cocchi) ? Why not 'Smith' or something else. It gets more silly by the minute.
I tried to help you with the above information. And now I'm a little busy. Believe as you please. You have no information any of these people were G. Cocchi (alias Rousseau, Gluck, etc etc etc etc).
If you find any information on the third Koch, the musicologist who published a book on contemporary music in 1793 (also another alias ?) do let us know. Because this is silly. G. Cocchi died in Venice in 1796. His wife had died some years earlier. The grave site is still there in Venice and can be seen. In fact, an inscription marks the place in the church (of S Giovanni Grisostomo) where he and his wife lie buried, close by the theatre where he made his Venetian début. Honest ! Would you like a picture of it ?
And here are lots more Kochs - (no doubt further 'proof') -
Christian Julius Andreas KOCH [Parents] was born on 14 Nov 1809 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He died on 15 Feb 1882 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He was buried on 18 Feb 1882 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He married Friederike Johanne Louise Hedwig NÜSSE on 6 May 1838 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
Friederike Johanne Louise Hedwig NÜSSE [Parents] was born on 13 Nov 1813 in Dassensen now Einbeck. She died on 5 Mar 1865 in Dassensen now Einbeck. She married Christian Julius Andreas KOCH on 6 May 1838 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
They had the following children:
F i Johanne LOUISE Wilhelmie KOCH was born on 26 Jun 1838 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M ii Heinrich Carl Christian WILHELM KOCH was born on 17 Dec 1840 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M iii CHRISTIAN Friedrich Wilhelm Ludwig KOCH was born on 6 Oct 1842. He died on 3 Apr 1925.
M iv August CARL Ludwig KOCH was born on 27 Oct 1844 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
F v Johanne Wilhelmine Louise Charlotte KOCH was born on 13 Dec 1846 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M vi Ernst August Wilhelm KOCH was born on 20 Feb 1849 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He died on 24 Apr 1849 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
M vii Heinrich Wilhelm Ernst AUGUST KOCH was born on 27 Mar 1851 in Dassensen now Einbeck. He was buried on 24 Feb 1883 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
F viii Johanne Louise FRIEDERIKE KOCH was born on 11 Aug 1854 in Dassensen now Einbeck.
Last edited by Musicology; 03-12-2010 at 06:26 AM.
You miserly failed to comment in detail to my points and, as expected, selected to focus on the wrong Coqs exclusively, trying deperately to avoid the evident size of whole issue that will haunt -mainly british written-18th cent "history" for ever.
Furthermore you still exhibit the same diversifying tactics in a very unwellcome and crude manner failing to add to your "other Kochs", "botanist" Wilhelm Daniel Joseph Koch, for obvious reasons:
(March 5, 1771 - November 14, 1849) was a German physician and botanist from Kusel, a town in the Rhineland-Palatinate.
Koch studied medicine at the Universities of Jena and Marburg, and afterwards was a Stadtphysicus (state physician) in Trarbach and Kaiserslautern (1798). In 1824 he became a professor of medicine and botany at the University of Erlangen, where he remained for the rest of his life. At Erlangen he was also director of its Botanical Gardens. In 1833, he was elected a foreign member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.
He best known written work was a treatise on German and Swiss flora titled Synopsis florae germanicae and helveticae (1835-37). Another noteworthy publication of his was Catalogus plantarum florae palatinae (Catalogue of Palatinate Flora) (1814).
The plant genus Kochia from the subfamily Chenopodioideae is named after him. (Wiki).
A pitifull fool's performance cannot go on forever: Get lost!
Last edited by yanni; 03-12-2010 at 07:34 AM.
You theory is half-baked. You have succeeded in confusing everyone who has come in contact with it.
So now we have 3 Kochs. One is an organist in Bonn. Another is a hotel manager (whose daughter was friendly with the young Beethoven). And a third is a musicologist who, in 1793, wrote a work on contemporary music.
Not forgetting Wilhelm Daniel Joseph Koch (botanist) who was born in 1771. Was he Gluck also ? And Rousseau ? And Baron Grimm ? And G. Cocchi ?
One tries, hard, to understand what you are actually saying. And, having tried, one retires to ponder on the workings of your mind in respect of Cocchi and the rest of the universe.
The 'wrong' Kochs were refered to ? But they were introduced by you, weren't they ?
'I who was once lost........'
And finally, since you no longer welcome discussion.
Originally Posted by yanni
Last edited by Musicology; 03-12-2010 at 09:32 AM.
Why did you fail to mention Prussia's (Frederick the Great's) chancellor, Samuel Cocceji, and "his son", theater manager Gottfried Heinrich Koch (ie Carl Ludwig Cocceji, years ago identified as "Comte de Saint Germain" elsewhere)?
Was their link to Caspar Anton von der Heyden genannt Belderbusch (* 5. Januar 1722 in Montzen; † 2. Januar 1784 auf Schloss Miel bei Bonn)....Deutschordensritter und Premierminister in Kurköln not obvious enough or, on the contrary, too obvious for you to research or at least repeat and hence highlight?
There is no other "valid method" to establish the identities of his aliases (he was powerfull enough to have all church registers altered- he owned churches- and there is evidence he did, faking most of his marriages and all of his deathes but one) but a detailed timeline!
The more aliases are added to my list (after testing them in my mastertimeline) the easier it gets for any sincerely interested researcher to dispute them by proving anyone's presence at a different time-place than any other of Cocchi's aliases.
Go ahead and do it (but you repeatedly chickened out my pevious re calls, didn"t you?) or verschwinde!
Last edited by yanni; 03-16-2010 at 03:09 PM.
Well, I did try.
Best wishes with your family history research. It seems to get more complicated by the moment. Anyway, I've given my opinion.
On the contrary, the initiative you took, to participate in this site because of my threads on Cocchi and the relative debate that followed forced me to address his music side -that I had rather neglected previously as of secondary importance-and was thus able to "simplify" and complete my relative research irrespectively of your expressed opinions and whatever motives.
Very few people indeed would today dare suggest current-even!-politics, diplomacy and secret services may be "simply" explained and, until you came along, there has been noother on record, ever (except perhaps "Foucault's pendulum" author), who made it (simplicity) a prerequisite in solving two, at least, major 18th century puzzles, those of "Le comte de Saint Germain" and "The phantom of the Opera", both highly political, diplomatical and.....secret!
Saint Germain is rumored to have used some 1000 aliases and I really never counted how many I have discovered thus far, many because of you (acting as the bear). I'll propably open an aliases-list thread shortly herein.
My compliments for being so instrumental in solving most other 18th cent music mysteries as well, along with your "manufactured Mozart".
I do thank you and best of luck with your simple book!
Furthermore, addressing all "Koch" genealogy researchers: I am willing to accept a modest bet, say 500 EUR, that the "widow" Koch of Vienna, Anna Maria, was one of Cocchi's-Koch's wives (posssibly Gluck's Maria Anna Bergin), that Daniel Koch, the botanologist, one of his (von Gleichen's) sons and that he (Bonn's "late" Koch) was the same man as Wiilibald Koch, von der Heyden-Belderbusch, lexicographer Heirnich Christoph Koch and Weimar's theaterman Gottfried Heinrich Koch. The bet will still be valid and settled even in the case of a Cocchi brother among them.
My Regards and best wishes to all, including all music loving american Kochs , needless to say!
Originally Posted by Musicology
Last edited by yanni; 03-13-2010 at 05:09 AM.
The entire history of mankind has been the search for and the discovery of (or the rejection of) its underlying and fundamental simplicity. A court may wade through a ton of evidence to find and establish the truth of a matter. But, when it finds it, and when it establishes it there is the truth before them.
The difference between the things men invent and that which is real, is that all man makes within his world becomes ever more complicated, while all we discover of creation (which is the context within which his rebellion is made) is seen to be ever more elegantly simple. So simple our process of searching begins all over again to find yet more simplicity. Since human nature resists reality.
I cannot agree our method should be one of complexity. It should be one of simplicity proving, over and over again, that it, simplicity, is the only method we can sensibly use when we are navigating through this complicated (man-made) world in which we live.
Best wishes. I will not bet with you on Cocchi and the Bonn innkeeper's daughter. I say instead you might, in a moment of simplicity, focus on her, and establish what is simple about her in respect of the subject that engages your time and talents. Since that simplicity would certainly be worth you and I knowing. And sharing. For sure.
Last edited by Musicology; 03-13-2010 at 06:52 AM.
In your search for simplicity you propably never met a Terese from Missolonghi, an alleged widow who has stolen my heart and mind long ago, so go ahead and ask for yourself the hand of Bonn inkeeper's daughter, Babette Koch, from her godfathers, famous musicoilogists today in USA!
Alternatively you may indulge in reading "North German opera in the age of Goethe" by Thomas Baumann, to learn everything required "Ueber die Kochische Schauspielergesellshaft" and their repertorio (or shall I say repertoire?) the unexpected loss, Jan, 1775, of their manager Koch (who had a flare for tragedy but preferred comic opera for his german audience-and , from another source, a ballet master brother*-husband of Franziska) and his wife, Franziska Koch, a famous singer of her time who drowned her sorrow to sing then (in tune but on and off only) with Wieland and Benda "Romeo and Juliette" and "Alceste", the first german opera seria. Gluck is also frequently mentioned in this book but there is no apparent relation to Mme Koch or Wielands "Alceste" whatsoever.
When finished, you may then Google for "Goethe+ Koch" to find the roots of sturm und drang (et tu, Johann Georg Hah-hah Hamman?)and "Doctor Faustus"-Koch who taught Goethe history and constitutional law in Strassburg (a few elementary lessons only I fear)....besides elementary music and drama as well.
As simple as that (excepting composer Anton Schweitzer-as swiss as Gaspard, yes!-whose extensive and well sourced biography may trouble you for a while http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Schweitzer)
....and, btw, "Carl Ludwig Cocceji", Bohemia's president, was very much alive in 1802 and celebrated his 50 year service jubileum.
Here is a what he looked like then: http://www.peusshares.com/aukdo/AukD...379&id1=639267
Good luck, best regards..and Please give my best wishes to our friend Koch ("letzter version" below). Your most humble
http://de.wikisource.org/w/index.php...&oldid=1002644 (Version vom 14. März 2010, 05:46 Uhr UTC)
*Gasparo Angiolini or "Giuseppe Canziani", known also as a composer, already identified by Yanni as another "Cocchi" in previous posts. An Angiolini, his son or perhaps his nephew Pietro, a choreographer(+1830), sold some Casanova writings to Brockhaus around 1820.
Last edited by yanni; 04-18-2010 at 06:11 AM.
Reason: Correct "Salzburg" to "Strassburg"
From my perspective (as a reader of your posts) the difficulty is not in the mechanical collection of individual bits of information on people named Cocchi, or even their association with the cultural/musical world of the 18th century. It is to distill this information in to a coherent account of how, if at all, this has any bearing on the lives and careers of the real Beethoven and Mozart. Since an intensive study of a family named 'Brun' or 'Schmidt' could achieve similar results. And, as you say yourself, if a man uses dozens, even hundreds of pseudonyms your task becomes ever more complicated, and not less so.
Therefore, I suggest (and already have) you should focus, if you can, on the connections between the Cocchi's of early Beethoven's time. Those associated with his early career. So that we might see from you, Yanni, a rare and useful report on their role in the life and career of, say, Beethoven, or Mozart. But, outside of that, the subject has no interest for me personally.
Last edited by yanni; 03-14-2010 at 01:16 PM.
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