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Thread: Religion

  1. #1
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    Religion

    To me, when it comes to matters such as the 'Origin of the Universe' or 'Is there a God?' I merely tell people my simple take on such complex topics; we don't know.
    Sure, it's kind of stupid, ignorant and overall silly. Though if you think about it enough, it makes sense. We surely are just mere ants to the grand whole scheme of it all and such topics are of no importance to us. Knowing for sure won't give us peace of mind. In fact, history shows that even more questions are raised following answers.
    So why would God want to reveal itself in such a way? It wouldn't help anything.

    I don't believe in religion, but I'm also not against it. People need whatever gives them faith, comfort and assurance, and religion delivers in spades. But when it starts becoming overly dominant in its aproach (Claiming its unquestionable truth above the oposite belief, whatever that may be) is when the major faults show, and anybody with a complex and layered mind knows that this isn't the road to contentment.
    What I like to do is take whatever truth I find in any religion since they all contain some elements of truth (Not that 'overall answer' truth but just how we should live our lives as humans) and add them to my little 'trophy cabinet' of lessons learned etc. which make up my own belief system, unorthodox as though it may be.

    As to whether or not there is a God, it's really only a question of probability. Look at how vast our universe is. Isn't it probable, even likely, that SOMETHING created this? Call him 'God' or 'Cthulhu' or whatever you want. I'm just used to calling that higher figure God. Certain people (Such as me) can look at certain moments in their life and, with a little perception, know that it wasn't some wild coincidence, but something that seemed like it was meant to happen. Like jigsaws falling into place.
    The real question, in my opinion, isn't whether or not a 'God' exists, but if that entity is a conscience personality or just some working force that naturally tries to balance it all like nature. I like to think it's conscience, but that's really only a choice based on preference. I guess it makes me feel less ultimately alone haha.
    What I like to believe is that God IS the Universe. Every particle of every amount of vast space is connected, even us. I think it would make sense when looking at subjects such as Karma. Maybe it's why we all ultimately balance in such a way?

    As I've said, we don't know anything and we never will. We can't. So let's just accept, try to give an answer that provides not truth but understanding to our the universe, and go on with whatever is on our minds. My main problem with religion is that it tries to explain the nature of everything, and in surprising detail too. But our job here isn't to question or explain why, it's to try and fulfill our own goals and reach that 'enlightenment'.

    So there's my wild-eyed view on the nature of mostly everything I guess. You can call me crazy. But if I were crazy...then why would I be wearing this hat?

    -Grandpa
    Last edited by Strange Aeons; 12-06-2009 at 02:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    To me, when it comes to matters such as the 'Origin of the Universe' or 'Is there a God?' I merely tell people my simple take on such complex topics; we don't know.
    Sure, it's kind of stupid, ignorant and overall silly.
    Not really. I suspect we may never know what happened for certain at the birth of the universe, so not knowing is honest rather than silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    What I like to do is take whatever truth I find in any religion since they all contain some elements of truth (Not that 'overall answer' truth but just how we should live our lives as humans) and add them to my little 'trophy cabinet' of lessons learned etc. which make up my own belief system, unorthodox as though it may be.
    Unorthodoxy is great.

    My sig line used to be Orwell's quote: "Orthodoxy is unconsciousness"

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    Look at how vast our universe is. Isn't it probable, even likely, that SOMETHING created this? Call him 'God' or 'Cthulhu' or whatever you want. I'm just used to calling that higher figure God.
    No question something started it. Whether it was a natural or supernatural event, we may never know.

    I just look at that probability figure and think that since every single thing we've ever discovered in the universe is physical in nature, I expect the answer to be equally physical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    Certain people (Such as me) can look at certain moments in their life and, with a little perception, know that it wasn't some wild coincidence, but something that seemed like it was meant to happen. Like jigsaws falling into place.
    What about the people whose jigsaws worked to death or maiming? If that guy and his family who got cleaned out by the drunk driver had started their trip 30 seconds later, they'd all be alive.

    Synchronicity isn't a one-way street.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    The real question, in my opinion, isn't whether or not a 'God' exists, but if that entity is a conscience personality or just some working force that naturally tries to balance it all like nature. I like to think it's conscience, but that's really only a choice based on preference. I guess it makes me feel less unltimately alone haha.
    That is one of the major selling points of religion. It's why I usually refer to the concept of "god" as the sky-daddy.

    Feeling alone in an infinite universe in an infinity of time makes one feel pretty insignificant and our brains aren't designed to cope with that much knowledge. It's a bit of an evolutionary weakness, but give another 100,000 years and we might overcome it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    What I like to believe is that God IS the Universe. Every particle of every amount of vast space is connected, even us. I think it would make sense when looking at subjects such as Karma. Maybe it's why we all ultimately balance in such a way?
    Spinoza's god.

    Great sounding theory, because all matter and non-matter is connected in the universe, and on earth we've seen that life must work symbiotically to survive and thrive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    So there's my wild-eyed view on the nature of mostly everything I guess. You can call me crazy. But if I were crazy...then why would I be wearing this hat?

    -Grandpa
    Nah, looks reasonably sane to me.

    We'll hold the white coats at the moment!


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    I began reading the post and the word that first popped into my mind was "agnosticism." It's not ignorance. It's a wonderful thing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    Look at how vast our universe is. Isn't it probable, even likely, that SOMETHING created this?
    This is similar to the common theist pseudo-argument that questions how a universe can even be without a god. The fundamental flaw in this, however, is that those who pose it are willing to believe that a universe simply could not exist without a god, but that a god simply could.

    Now certainly you could counter-argue that by suggesting meta-physical beings (assuming that is what our hypothetical "god" is) are not bound by the same laws as is material existence and therefore cannot not apply, but I would think if someone were logical enough to evaluate it on those grounds they wouldn't have bothered to suppose any foreknowledge of a god we cannot know anything about (to this point, at least) and, therefore, wouldn't have argued in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    My sig line used to be Orwell's quote: "Orthodoxy is unconsciousness"
    I like that. :P

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    I will only quote what I disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    Knowing for sure won't give us peace of mind.

    As to whether or not there is a God, it's really only a question of probability. Look at how vast our universe is. Isn't it probable, even likely, that SOMETHING created this? Call him 'God' or 'Cthulhu' or whatever you want. I'm just used to calling that higher figure God.

    As I've said, we don't know anything and we never will. We can't. So let's just accept, try to give an answer that provides not truth but understanding to our the universe, and go on with whatever is on our minds. My main problem with religion is that it tries to explain the nature of everything, and in surprising detail too. But our job here isn't to question or explain why, it's to try and fulfill our own goals and reach that 'enlightenment'.
    To the first part, I disagree with how knowing about God's existance will not give us a peace of mind. Hypothetically, if God just revealed himself in the skies and could prove he was God, that settles everything. For, if God were real, in turn, Heaven would exist; Hell would exist; the story of Jesus would be real. Knowing God's existence would assert theism's validity. It would solve every question needed for faith, and questions about how he existed would just be auxiliary.

    On the probability of the existence of our universe, you exclude the Big Bang theory. I'm not taking sides in whether a cosmic explosion created us or divine power did. I just want to point out that hypothetically, we may have a physical explanation for our existence.

    On the bold especially, questions are the reason we gain enlightenment, at least from my perspective. Laws of gravity would not have been discovered had somebody ignored why we don't hover. Functions of the brain would not had been discovered had no one taken the time to research and discover it's abilities. While some questions are far more difficult to answer (existence of God, His origin), questioning and the inherent searching for answers to those questions will provide us that enlightenment you refer to.

  5. #5
    Flypaper Anna_MAlkovych's Avatar
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    I have a big belief problem. I guess the term belief is difficult for me. I never believe. Well there are several words for it: faith; belief; trust. Let’s say I believe in God, it is not like I trust him or have faith in him. I think mostly people just shift responsibility on God as if they are not to blame. I feel that if God really did exist it would be unbearable - I'd just start to hate him, for making us like him and then blaming us for it. They say that God's love is different from human one, but, people, is it really true? If God does exist I think he doesn't love us. And blaming devil is also foolish he did not lie when he meat Jesus, he told what is going to happen, so how is he a liar - while God lied a lot( just remember the thing with lamb - first kill, then do not), funny devil in translation the one who lies, while his old name meant - the one who bring the light, makes you wonder is it really God who won in battle high above, maybe it was devil and he claimed to be a New God and rewrote everything. Well anyway there is only one thing I can say for sure even if I believe in God, I surely can't trust him

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    Quote Originally Posted by IceM View Post



    To the first part, I disagree with how knowing about God's existance will not give us a peace of mind. Hypothetically, if God just revealed himself in the skies and could prove he was God, that settles everything. For, if God were real, in turn, Heaven would exist; Hell would exist; the story of Jesus would be real. Knowing God's existence would assert theism's validity. It would solve every question needed for faith, and questions about how he existed would just be auxiliary.

    On the probability of the existence of our universe, you exclude the Big Bang theory. I'm not taking sides in whether a cosmic explosion created us or divine power did. I just want to point out that hypothetically, we may have a physical explanation for our existence.

    On the bold especially, questions are the reason we gain enlightenment, at least from my perspective. Laws of gravity would not have been discovered had somebody ignored why we don't hover. Functions of the brain would not had been discovered had no one taken the time to research and discover it's abilities. While some questions are far more difficult to answer (existence of God, His origin), questioning and the inherent searching for answers to those questions will provide us that enlightenment you refer to.
    It's, overwhelmingly, more than likely that the common religious view on God is merely man's over-imaginative take on what we can't understand.
    In that sense, it's likely that God is fundamentally alien. There would be no answer to 'heaven' 'hell' or 'jesus' for those are, in my opinion, concepts designed by our limited human knowledge in order to explain the nature of everything. I'm not biased against them, I just believe in rationality.

    Remember that the Big Bang is a theory. While it is likely, I try to leave my statements as open as possible so that people of many beliefs can find relevance in them.

    Also, our understanding of things such as the laws of gravity are still limited in our human potential. Who are we to say that our knowledge is 100%? Who are we to say that it's not? Nothing can ever be ultimately answered and it is for that reason that I believe we can't (nor are we meant to) fully comprehend the workings around us.
    The enlightenment I refer to is an understanding of ourselves, not the universe. So, in part, you are right. We must constantly question ourselves (who we are) Not spend fruitless aeons questioning a nature we can never fully grasp.

    But thanks to you all for your well-thought out comments.

    -Grandpa
    Last edited by Strange Aeons; 12-06-2009 at 10:55 AM.

  7. #7
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    I am skeptical about both the claims of science and religion. I am divided when it comes to say something about science and religion. Both are incomplete. Religions often are full of superstitions and science of hypotheses. Can we have a bridge between the two? This is impossible in point of fact. No body is an authority over these polar opposites. They never meet.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

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    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blazeofglory View Post
    I am skeptical about both the claims of science and religion. I am divided when it comes to say something about science and religion. Both are incomplete. Religions often are full of superstitions and science of hypotheses. Can we have a bridge between the two? This is impossible in point of fact. No body is an authority over these polar opposites. They never meet.
    *sigh*

    Every pair of opposites are two sides of the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa
    To me, when it comes to matters such as the 'Origin of the Universe' or 'Is there a God?' I merely tell people my simple take on such complex topics; we don't know.
    Sure, it's kind of stupid, ignorant and overall silly. Though if you think about it enough, it makes sense. We surely are just mere ants to the grand whole scheme of it all and such topics are of no importance to us. Knowing for sure won't give us peace of mind. In fact, history shows that even more questions are raised following answers.
    So why would God want to reveal itself in such a way? It wouldn't help anything.

    I don't believe in religion, but I'm also not against it. People need whatever gives them faith, comfort and assurance, and religion delivers in spades. But when it starts becoming overly dominant in its aproach (Claiming its unquestionable truth above the oposite belief, whatever that may be) is when the major faults show, and anybody with a complex and layered mind knows that this isn't the road to contentment.
    What I like to do is take whatever truth I find in any religion since they all contain some elements of truth (Not that 'overall answer' truth but just how we should live our lives as humans) and add them to my little 'trophy cabinet' of lessons learned etc. which make up my own belief system, unorthodox as though it may be.

    As to whether or not there is a God, it's really only a question of probability. Look at how vast our universe is. Isn't it probable, even likely, that SOMETHING created this? Call him 'God' or 'Cthulhu' or whatever you want. I'm just used to calling that higher figure God. Certain people (Such as me) can look at certain moments in their life and, with a little perception, know that it wasn't some wild coincidence, but something that seemed like it was meant to happen. Like jigsaws falling into place.
    The real question, in my opinion, isn't whether or not a 'God' exists, but if that entity is a conscience personality or just some working force that naturally tries to balance it all like nature. I like to think it's conscience, but that's really only a choice based on preference. I guess it makes me feel less ultimately alone haha.
    What I like to believe is that God IS the Universe. Every particle of every amount of vast space is connected, even us. I think it would make sense when looking at subjects such as Karma. Maybe it's why we all ultimately balance in such a way?

    As I've said, we don't know anything and we never will. We can't. So let's just accept, try to give an answer that provides not truth but understanding to our the universe, and go on with whatever is on our minds. My main problem with religion is that it tries to explain the nature of everything, and in surprising detail too. But our job here isn't to question or explain why, it's to try and fulfill our own goals and reach that 'enlightenment'.

    So there's my wild-eyed view on the nature of mostly everything I guess. You can call me crazy. But if I were crazy...then why would I be wearing this hat?

    -Grandpa
    We have taken so many turns from the Origin, from our source, we don't remember. It is a dream within a dream within a dream.

    I really enjoyed reading your post, it is very well written, and it clearly shows you are intelligent. I will say though that I disagee with one point you made, which is that "we don't know and we can't know." Recently I have been discussing with a dear friend who has also been making this claim. And I don't know what I can possibly say to him except how wrong it feels to me to say that. Although if I had not had my own experiences, my own revelations, and visions, I also cannot imagine what my paradigm would currently be.

    There is infinite mystery in the world, but that doesn't mean there is no truth. Mystics of all cultures and times have perceived varying parts of the truth or the light, and they all have had similar threads in their poems and philosophies. One such is that all things are connected. This is important. But truly if you look at the mystics, you will still see the same words written by Laozi, Black Elk, and Vivekananda, coming from China, North America, and India. The greatest saints from anywhere will ultimately come to the same conclusions. The only reason we doubt is because it is so rare - one out of millions, one out of billions.

    And then it so often happens that one searches and reads all of the popular mystics and is still unsatisfied. And then another important point comes, which is that the ultimate goal is very difficult to achieve. It requires cultivation for years or lifetimes. It requires meditation, self-insight, and yet also activity and striving and work. One of the best instructions of spiritual wisdom is from the Bhagavad-Gita; "Karam karo fal ki chinta mat karo," or "Work without being attached to the results." Buddhists teach non-attachment; the Gita's instruction includes this; but work without attachment.

    But coming back to my concern with your post, when you say we can't know. Because I would just say, how can you know you can't know? A line came to mind which is perhaps somehow related... a sentence from "The Joyous Cosmology," by Alan Watts; "When people go to a guru, a master of wisdom, seeking a way out of darkness, all he really does is to humor them in their pretense until they are outfaced into dropping it. He tells nothing, but the twinkle in his eye speaks to the unconscious—"You know....You know!"'

    Because as you say, you sometimes see something how things are connected in a higher sense. I have heard it said that coincidence is not the exception, but it is actually a glimpse of a more ordered way that events are occurring.

    Still there is much spiritual knowledge that has blessed the human race throughout the ages. Sometimes I consider if any of this has remained in the world, and sometimes I wonder if every other person has attained the highest state, and left the planet, and I am the only one still in darkness. But as to the first question; we can see such truths in the writings of persons like the Buddha, in the Heart Sutra.

    I've actually attained the same state of consciousness in this life; therefore I know it is real, it really exists, it is truth, because I have seen it. Actually the source you speak of, that is God, Buddha, or Krishna - I saw it as Buddha, seated on a Lotus. It is within everything, it is the Pure Land; it is within even the cells of your body. Because it is the source of all forms, it is within all forms in the universe.

    This is what I experienced in this life a few years ago. By the nature of my experience, after several hours of revelation, I could understand that it was the a true experience. I can never do justice by words this experience. All I can say is that I experienced the state of enlightenment described in the Heart Sutra, and by all my best understanding, it's the highest I can imagine is possible to experience. Alan Watts described something very similar.

    " The more prosaic, the more dreadfully ordinary anyone or anything seems to be, the more I am moved to marvel at the ingenuity with which divinity hides in order to seek itself, at the lengths to which this cosmic joie de vivre will go in elaborating its dance. I think of a corner gas station on a hot afternoon. Dust and exhaust fumes, the regular Standard guy all baseball and sports cars, the billboards halfheartedly gaudy, the flatness so reassuring—nothing around here but just us folks! I can see people just pretending not to see that they are avatars of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, that the cells of their bodies aren't millions of gods, that the dust isn't a haze of jewels. How solemnly they would go through the act of not understanding me if I were to step up and say, "Well, who do you think you're kidding? Come off it, Shiva, you old rascal! It's a great act, but it doesn't fool me." But the conscious ego doesn't know that it is something which that divine organ, the body, is only pretending to be.* When people go to a guru, a master of wisdom, seeking a way out of darkness, all he really does is to humor them in their pretense until they are outfaced into dropping it. He tells nothing, but the twinkle in his eye speaks to the unconscious—"You know....You know!"

    We have gone so many turns from our source that we have no idea, it is beyond, completely beyond even the best of our conceptions. But the purport of that is the reality of the source - in Hindu theology, Saccidananda, Existence-Consciousness-Bliss. The purport, rather, is that there is never any reason to feel any anxiety... it is a peace beyond our greatest conception. It is the difference between darkness and light, between illusion and reality.

    So the question is how to get out of the illusion; and the answer is probably different for everyone. It is simple for the simple. We just have to search for God, for our source, for Truth. The saints have said that our true nature is divine, is pure love. I've experienced this myself and I know that it is under hundreds of layers of illusion. But the ultimate thing is that it is also not under any illusion. The illusion is just that - illusion. It is not real. That's the interesting thing. There is no illusion. It's a bit of a paradox. But we are obviously separated from God because we are not, currently, experiencing supreme peace, love and bliss. But it is possible to experience that. To be completely free from all doubt, illusion, and karma, and to know our true, divine nature of pure love. And the truth is that there is no illusion; there is no pain, no suffering, no self, no action, no reaction, no separation, no union, no desire, no unattachment; above all there is no suffering and no separation. You see, we are never separate from God. God alone is real, and all else is nothing...

    But that doesn't mean we can do anything. And there are some things I don't know. These things I know only because I experienced them. But I don't know for instance about karma; I know that on one hand our true nature is divine, and free from karma; and that is possible to know God. I don't, however, know how to convince people not to kill animals or how to convince them that doing so is a horrible crime. I can't convince them of that kind of thing. So I don't know. Therefore I am also under the illusion... therefore I long for truth again, I long for union and love of God. That is just the nature of existence. Love and separation.

  9. #9
    BadWoolf JuniperWoolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Aeons View Post
    To me, when it comes to matters such as the 'Origin of the Universe' or 'Is there a God?' I merely tell people my simple take on such complex topics; we don't know.
    Actually, in my opinion, you're way ahead of the game. "I don't know and neither do you, stop asking" has become the philosophy that I live and breathe. You're blessed with a sense of humor too, AND you live in Alberta! I hope you stick around.
    Last edited by JuniperWoolf; 12-08-2009 at 04:06 AM.
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    "Personal note: When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun. So once when I was six, I did. At first the brightness was overwhelming, but I had seen that before. I kept looking, forcing myself not to blink, and then the brightness began to dissolve. My pupils shrunk to pinholes and everything came into focus and for a moment I understood. The doctors didn't know if my eyes would ever heal."
    -Pi


  10. #10
    Registered User NikolaiI's Avatar
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    "Many things in life can wait, but the search for God, that cannot wait." - George Harrison

    "Only when men know that they are one with the universe will they have peace in their souls." - Black Elk

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    Hi,

    These two define religion in the best possible way

    A. Powell Davies:

    True religion, like our founding principles, requires that the rights of the disbeliever be equally acknowledged with those of the believer.

    Abraham Joshua Heschel:

    A religious man is a person who holds God and man in one thought at one time, at all times, who suffers harm done to others, whose greatest passion is compassion, whose greatest strength is love and defiance of despair.

    MarkC
    I am the author of Parmethia

  12. #12
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    Hi,

    These two define religion in the best possible way

    A. Powell Davies:

    True religion, like our founding principles, requires that the rights of the disbeliever be equally acknowledged with those of the believer.

    Abraham Joshua Heschel:

    A religious man is a person who holds God and man in one thought at one time, at all times, who suffers harm done to others, whose greatest passion is compassion, whose greatest strength is love and defiance of despair.

    MarkC

    Your thoughts raise man above all else, and religion thus rising above division and segmentation. Of course there must be ample place for disbelievers and those who are downing the irreligious are not in fact religious. Religious people believe in integration, synchronism, harmony and cohesion that makes possible for all to live in perfect harmony and understanding and those who fail to stand by this conviction is irreligious, as Laotse said:
    "Good men do not argue.
    Those who argue are not good.
    Those who know are not learned.
    The learned do not know. "

    When we are too much critical of others, of atheists, of disbelievers, thinking that we are superior just because we follow a particular set of beliefs or creeds or ways and those who do not conform to established faiths or organized religions are sacrilegious. I totally flout these ideas. They are simply phony and spurious people, kind of hypocrites in point of fact

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  13. #13
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    A number of modern scholars of religion have commented on the difficulty of defining what religion is. Over the centuries, influential thinkers have offered their own definitions, with greater or lesser degrees of assurance, but virtually all of these definitions have been found wanting by the majority of scholars. In some cases the definitions are too narrow, defining religion in terms of the speaker's religious beliefs or those of his or her culture and tending to exclude the religious beliefs of other cultures. In other cases the definitions are so vague and inclusive that they do not sufficiently delimit religion from other areas of human thought such as psychology, law, economics, physics, etc.
    Religion originates in an attempt to represent and order beliefs, feelings, imaginings and actions that arise in response to direct experience of the sacred and the spiritual. As this attempt expands in its formulation and elaboration, it becomes a process that creates meaning for itself on a sustaining basis, in terms of both its originating experiences and its own continuing responses.

    Thanks
    I am the author of Parmethia

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    Updating my comments here to say that I recant of everything that disagrees with Christianity. I have found forgiveness and salvation in Jesus Christ, and I invite anyone who reads this comment to place their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins and to repent of their sin.
    Last edited by IceM; 04-04-2020 at 10:08 PM.

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