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Thread: Classical Listening

  1. #1111
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I gave a listen to the Zubin Mehta recording of Mahler's 2nd Symphony today...



    Damn! That thin was played at a white heat. Absolutely stunning. It was one of those musical experiences that left me so drained afterwards that I could only sit in silence for a while. When I eventually popped Vasily Petrenko's recording of Shostakovitch' 6th and 12th into the CD player it seemed so anti-climactic that I'll definitely need to give it another listen later... under different circumstances. Brian... you would surely love Mehta's performance. All fire and drama... no holds barred>
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    I've been hearing a lot about this soprano Katherine Jenkins now that she's competing on Dancing with the Stars (and, yes, I too think its a travesty that she has to appear in such drivel to gain any kind of popular fame), so I searched her on YouTube to see what the fuss is about.

    I think I'm in love.

  3. #1113
    Registered User Dark Star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis View Post
    I've been hearing a lot about this soprano Katherine Jenkins now that she's competing on Dancing with the Stars (and, yes, I too think its a travesty that she has to appear in such drivel to gain any kind of popular fame), so I searched her on YouTube to see what the fuss is about.
    She's actually a very popular classical crossover singer in England.

  4. #1114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Star View Post
    She's actually a very popular classical crossover singer in England.
    "In England" being the key words, there. I guess I should've clarified and said fame in the USA. We're not in the habit of making opera or classical artists well known sales, unless it's Yo-Yo Ma.

  5. #1115
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, Katherine Jenkins' finest "assets" are not to be found in her singing:







    A female equivalent to Andrea Bocelli.
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  6. #1116
    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    I gave a listen to the Zubin Mehta recording of Mahler's 2nd Symphony today...



    Damn! That thin was played at a white heat. Absolutely stunning. It was one of those musical experiences that left me so drained afterwards that I could only sit in silence for a while. When I eventually popped Vasily Petrenko's recording of Shostakovitch' 6th and 12th into the CD player it seemed so anti-climactic that I'll definitely need to give it another listen later... under different circumstances. Brian... you would surely love Mehta's performance. All fire and drama... no holds barred>
    Got to agree, and although the sound quality on YouTube isn't good, it's an incredible performance. Those last bars are so powerful they seem to sweep one into eternity; which I guess is what Mahler intended. Mehta was also fortunate in having Ludwig and Cotrubas as solo singers as they were both out of the very top drawer at the time of recording.
    "L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.

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  7. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    Unfortunately, Katherine Jenkins' finest "assets" are not to be found in her singing:







    A female equivalent to Andrea Bocelli.
    Why? What's wrong with her singing? I don't know that person you named....

  8. #1118
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    Like the singer I mentioned, Andrea Bocelli... or Sarah Brightman... Jenkin's is a classical cross-over artist... or what is referred to in the classical world as a "Popera singer". As a pop singer, her abilities are more than adequate. Within the world of classical vocalists she is seriously lacking. First she is wholly dependent upon the microphone. The real opera singer must be able to project regardless of where she is in the theater or on stage... or what she is expected to do in terms of acting:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTAYNoZSQTA

    Jenkins is then limited... from what I have heard of her... to an easier, less demanding repertoire. It is more than doubtful that she has the stamina to pull off a heroic role such as demanded by Wagner or Richard Strauss. And certainly she has shown no ability to perform one of the roles that demand a degree of vocal pyrotechnics. Just watch as the brilliant Diana Damrau tears up one of the most difficult arias ever composed:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvuKxL4LOqc

    Seriously, Jenkins could probably be quite good at some secondary, less demanding roles... or certainly as part of the chorus or a vocal group. As it stands now she's dependent upon the microphone, added reverb, schmaltzy saccharine settings, and autotune, which uses computer software to alter the pitch in vocal performances (originally intended to disguise off-key inaccuracies, allowing vocal tracks to be perfectly tuned despite originally being slightly off-key... employed by many pop singers of limited vocal abilities).

    If Jenkins was truly serious about becoming an opera singer, she would do well to focus more on classical vocals as opposed to all the pop music... but one cannot blame her... the path she has taken will undoubtedly result in far greater success than if she were to focus on a classical music career. I think a lot of classical fans are irritated by the manner in which she is marketed by her PR and idiotic TV commentators as a brilliant opera singer although she has never once sang in an opera. At the same time, she has made dismissive comments toward critics suggesting that she is bringing opera to a new audience (in other words, bringing pseudo-opera to an audience that doesn't like opera) and making snide remarks about true classical vocalists... while repeatedly stating that when her voice matures (she's in her 30s now) she wants to sing opera at La Scala. The reality is that if she were serious, she'd be singing in the chorus... or in smaller regional theaters.

    Now here is Jenkins performing O mio babbino caro. The performance is mediocre... not bad... although her use of vibrato is ridiculous.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lJ9oFzMVU0

    Compare with Anna Netrebko... who is far from the finest at the Italian repertoire:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-4TS...eature=related

    Another truly fine example:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRuYQ...eature=related

    Now I can appreciate that Jenkins is a real looker... but then again Opolais (see above) wasn't bad... and Netrebko in her prime was an absolute stunner:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWnWi...eature=related
    Last edited by stlukesguild; 05-06-2012 at 12:07 AM.
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  9. #1119
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    Okay, totally get where you're coming from. And I do agree . . . Jenkins doesn't really compare to the examples you gave.

    Out of curiosity (and I ask this because I suspect you enjoy making such lists as I do perusing them), who are the best opera singers right now, make and female? I've watched a few operas, but I haven't really learned the "who's who," if you will, of the opera world. The only contemporary name I know of is Placido Domingo. I would know a few others if I saw there names, and I'm definitely better at recognizing a singer by their face (I probably know 20 or so that I would go, "Oh yeah, I remember him/her."

    And, if you feel like it, who were the best of the past? I know Pavarotti was just awesome. I also know of a woman named Reneta Tebaldi, but that's only because her name has been mentioned on Frasier.

    I've noticed with opera I really don't have a refined ear at all. I've been pretty impressed by every opera singer I've seen (though, all the operas I've watched have been recorded or simulcast from The Met, and I doubt many slouches get to perform there)--hell, I'm usually blown away by them--but then I'll look up reviews and read so-and-so was off or so-and-so was weak, and I think, really? They sounded good to me.
    Last edited by Mutatis-Mutandis; 05-06-2012 at 12:25 AM.

  10. #1120
    Registered User Dark Star's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis View Post
    I've noticed with opera I really don't have a refined ear at all. I've been pretty impressed by every opera singer I've seen (though, all the operas I've watched have been recorded or simulcast from The Met, and I doubt many slouches get to perform there)--hell, I'm usually blown away by them--but then I'll look up reviews and read so-and-so was off or so-and-so was weak, and I think, really? They sounded good to me.
    This is not surprising. The reality of the professional opera world is that standards are so high that anyone who 'makes it' will be quite talented, even if individual performances are mediocre. As a result of this, many of the flaws present in a particular performance require a trained eye and ear (and extensive knowledge of the repertoire) that neither you or I possess.

    Two names come to mind off the top of my head for past greats:

    Hans Hotter (beautiful, powerful baritone) and the Wagnerian soprano Birgite Nilsson, though I should note that her voice is not particularly accessible. She is very powerful and that will take some getting used to, but the effort is worth it.

    Edit: I'm not going to bother arguing over whether she is among the greatest or not, but Nuria Rial is a fine, living soprano that is worth your time.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-eoc...eature=related

    She ain't bad looking, either...
    Last edited by Dark Star; 05-06-2012 at 09:22 AM.

  11. #1121
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    Among the finest living and performing female singers you would have to include:

    Cecilia Bartoli
    Angela Gheorghiu
    Anja Harteros
    Anna Netrebko
    Anne Sofie von Otter
    Christina Schäfer
    Danielle de Niese
    Dawn Upshaw

    Deborah Voigt
    Diana Damrau
    Edita Gruberova
    Elina Garanca
    Joyce DiDonato

    Kristine Opolais
    Natalie Dessay
    Patricia Petibon
    Renée Fleming
    Vesselina Kasarova

    Vivica Genaux
    Veronique Gens
    Magdalena Kozena
    Sandrine Piau

    Waltraud Meier
    Mariella Devia
    Nina Stemme
    Camilla Nylund
    Bernarda Fink
    Karina Gauvin
    Christine Schäfer

    The names in bold are those singers who I am quite familiar with.

    Older (retired or diseased) female singers:

    Elisabeth Schwarzkopf
    Lucia Popp
    Joan Sutherland
    Maria Callas
    Kiri Te Kanawa

    Montserrat Caballé
    Renata Tebaldi
    Victoria de los Angeles

    Mirella Freni
    Shirley Virrett
    Christa Ludwig
    Ileana Cotrubas
    Leonie Rysanek
    Astrid Varnay
    Barbara Hendricks

    Elly Ameling
    Maureen Forrester
    Lisa della Casa
    Mady Mesple
    Elizabeth Grummer
    Rita Streich
    Jessye Norman
    Lorraine Hunt Lieberson
    Leontyne Price

    Frederica von Stade
    Leyla Gencer
    Lotte Lehmann
    Teresa Berganza
    Marilyn Horne

    Katia Ricciarelli
    Galina Vishnevskaya
    Pilar Lorengar
    Regine Crespin
    Renata Scotto
    Kathleen Ferrier
    Kathleen Battle
    Janet Baker

    Irmgard Seefried
    Kirsten Flagstad
    Teresa Stratas
    Gundula Janowitz
    SENA JURINAC


    Among the finest living/performing male singers you might include:

    Placido Domingo (still performing at 71!)
    Bryn Terfel
    Philippe Jaroussky

    Juan Diego Florez
    Thomas Hampson
    Dmitri Hvorostovsky

    Jonas Kaufmann
    Roberto Alagna
    Thomas Quasthoff
    Andreas Scholl
    Rolando Villazon
    Bejun Mehta

    Matthias Goerne
    Ian Bostridge

    Simon Keenlyside

    Male Singers from the past:

    Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau
    Hans Hotter
    Tito Gobbi
    Nicolai Gedda
    Beniamino Gigli
    Fritz Wunderlich
    Jussi Björling

    Franco Correlli
    Hermann Prey
    Peter Schreier
    Peter Pears
    Lauritz Melchior
    Wolfgang Windgassen
    Luciano Pavarotti
    Jon Vickers

    Robert Merrill
    Jose Carreras
    Richard Tauber
    Gérard Souzay
    Léopold Simoneau

    Cesare Siepi
    Walter Taussig
    Samuel Ramey
    Alfredo Kraus
    Pavel Lisitsian
    Alfred Deller

    Richard Tucker
    Mario del Monaco

    Undoubtedly I've forgotten any number of worthy singers. Your best bet is looking at the names that appear frequently in the leading roles in the recordings of operas on the major labels... especially EMI, DG (Deutsche Grammophon), Decca, etc...

    Anyone serious interested in learning more about opera might explore this forum:

    http://operalively.com/forums/forum.php
    Last edited by stlukesguild; 05-07-2012 at 01:30 AM.
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  12. #1122
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I've noticed with opera I really don't have a refined ear at all. I've been pretty impressed by every opera singer I've seen (though, all the operas I've watched have been recorded or simulcast from The Met, and I doubt many slouches get to perform there)--hell, I'm usually blown away by them--but then I'll look up reviews and read so-and-so was off or so-and-so was weak, and I think, really? They sounded good to me.

    I think there's something about opera... this unique art form that combines theater and music... that brings out the most fiercely passionate supporters and critics. Indeed, in no other field of classical music have I come across such brutal criticism. There are those who are absolute acolytes of Maria Callas who will spit out the most vicious critiques of any challenger... however brilliant: Joan Sutherland, Birgit Nilsson, Elizabeth Schwarzkopf. There are fans of contemporary singers who are equally brutal... merciless in their criticism of any singer excepting that with whom they are obsessed. Renee Fleming fans will post comments on YouTube videos calling Anna Netrebko a "slvt", or Angela Gheorghiu a "wh-re" (although Gheorgiu does deserve her nickname, 'Draculette'). There are also those who will argue to the death as to the superiority of some singer who reached her peak in 1917... when recording technology was less than ideal. At the same time... as Dark Star suggests... the highly-trained listeners are able to pick up on things that the rest of the audience will miss. They catch the slightest missed note... the poor enunciation or pronunciation. I was listening to this show on the radio once when they played about 15 seconds of a selection of 10 different singers performing the same aria. The experts were able to identify almost all of the singers with little or no real effort. I was absolutely flabbergasted... but then again... I probably have an eye for paintings that is quite similarly developed.
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  13. #1123
    Card-carrying Medievalist Lokasenna's Avatar
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    That's a great list Luke, and there are quite a few on there I haven't heard of but am going to explore! I was wondering, though, whether your soprano list ought to include Dame Felicity Lott and (perhaps to a lesser degree) Dorothea Röschmann. Also, as a denizen of Durham University, I feel obliged to recommend Sir Thomas Allen to the list of male singers!
    "I should only believe in a God that would know how to dance. And when I saw my devil, I found him serious, thorough, profound, solemn: he was the spirit of gravity- through him all things fall. Not by wrath, but by laughter, do we slay. Come, let us slay the spirit of gravity!" - Nietzsche

  14. #1124
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    Certainly Felicity Lott belongs on the list. Dorothea Röschmann? I can't say as I'm not familiar with her... although in no way would I suggest that this is an all-inclusive list. Classical music is so broad and there are some many genres which each have their great singers who often specialize in a given repertoire. I think now of Michael Chance... another great singer I forgot. You also have vocal groups which specialize: the Anonymous 4, the Gothic Voices, the Deller Consort, the Hilliard Ensemble, the Tallis Scholars, Sequentia, etc...
    Beware of the man with just one book. -Ovid
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  15. #1125
    Card-carrying Medievalist Lokasenna's Avatar
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    A sad day for music lovers... Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau has died, at the venerable age of 86.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-18118722

    One of the greatest voices of the 20th century, and who leaves behind a tremendous legacy to the musical world.
    "I should only believe in a God that would know how to dance. And when I saw my devil, I found him serious, thorough, profound, solemn: he was the spirit of gravity- through him all things fall. Not by wrath, but by laughter, do we slay. Come, let us slay the spirit of gravity!" - Nietzsche

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