Classical Listening

**Climacus** · 12-29-2011, 01:17 AM

My favourite recording of one of my favourite works. Absolutely delicious. The orchestration here is lush and luxuriant. (Writing an orchestration text was one of Schoenberg's unrealised projects.

)

**Climacus** · 12-29-2011, 08:48 PM

String Quartet No. 3 . . . Shostakovich was at his best when he was being sarcastic.

**stlukesguild** · 12-30-2011, 03:30 AM

My favourite recording of one of my favourite works. Absolutely delicious. The orchestration here is lush and luxuriant. (Writing an orchestration text was one of Schoenberg's unrealised projects.

Yes... too bad he did not spent more effort there and less effort in attempting to throw out traditional tonality with the aim of replacing it with a entirely new musical language. Certainly, one can appreciate the ambition... but despise the pretension. An acquaintance recently suggested that he wished Schoenberg had never existed so that he might have experienced what Berg and Webern might have achieved within a more traditional tonality.

**Climacus** · 12-30-2011, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Yes... too bad he did not spent more effort there and less effort in attempting to throw out traditional tonality with the aim of replacing it with a entirely new musical language. Certainly, one can appreciate the ambition... but despise the pretension.

Yes, I know what you mean. He himself said: "There is still plenty of good music to be written in C Major." To be fair, he did spend a lot of time and effort on practical theoretical works. (And they've been an immense help to me, as a musician - teacher, performer, and would-be composer - by trade. He was a great teacher.) Of course, he would have vehemently disagreed with your rhetoric too (all that talk about "throwing out" traditional tonality).

**stlukesguild** · 12-30-2011, 04:10 PM

I see Schoenberg's shift toward atonality as analogous to the shift toward abstraction in painting/the visual arts. Wagner, Debussy, Scriabin and others were already pushing the limitations of traditional tonality and these efforts opened up a new world of expressive possibilities... just as the "abstractions" and "distortions" of drawing, space, and color wrought an entire new world of possibilities for painters. In each instance it took someone to take the ultimate logical step toward a complete abandonment of figuration or traditional tonality. In either instance, the strongest artists did not immediately follow suit. Picasso refused to have anything to do with total abstraction. Paul Klee straddles the line between abstraction and figuration. Beckmann and Matisse and Bonnard had little use for the abandonment of figuration. Within the realm of music, Richard Strauss, Benjamen Britten Prokofiev, Shostakovitch... and even Stravinsky prior to his later works... refused to follow where Schoenberg had taken music. In both music and painting abstraction/atonality eventually became the dominant language until critics could speak of the "triumph" of abstraction, and suggest (as Greenberg in Art and Boulez and Wuorinen could in music) that figurative art/traditional tonality was "dead". In both instances I feel that there has been a shift among later artists toward a more moderate positions... a recognition of the expressive possibilities wrought by pushing the limits of tonality and "realism", an acceptance that some will continue to explore the possibilities of pure abstraction or atonality, and a realization that to many later artists the entire either/or dispute is a non-issue as they freely employ both figuration and abstraction/traditional tonality and atonality... as well as building upon sources greatly removed from either side of the debate (popular art/music, non-Western art/music, etc...)

**********

Unfortunately, Górecki is known almost exclusively for his 3rd Symphony. He did compose a number of other marvelous works as well... as brilliant as the 3rd is. The Beatus Vir and Second Symphony magnificently performed here by Antoni Wit are both worthy of serious attention )as are his string quartets). Górecki, feeling trapped between the conservative limitations proscribed by the Soviet Communists and the Western Avant Garde extremists who initially embraced his early work but who (in his eyes) insisted upon continual formal experimentation for the sake of experimentation initiated a shift in style with these works. He consciously sought to engage a larger audience without sacrificing his aesthetic standards. The music was intentionally public... openly challenging Communist control and its atheistic, anti-religion position at a period in which the Catholic Church represented a serious challenge to the Communist control in Poland. Ironically, while Górecki was taken to task by Western critics as having "sold out" and "taken the safe route" he was in reality taking a heroic stance in facing very real dangers completely unknown to the Western academic safe in their university enclaves.

The style of music Górecki developed became known (often derisively) as Holy Minimalism. Like the Minimalism of American composers such as Philip Glass, Steve Reich, John Adams, etc...) Górecki's music returns to a music largely based upon traditional tonality. The simplicity or Minimalism of this music is often rooted in older musical forms such as medieval chants and the tolling of bells. I personally found both of these works highly effective... strikingly emotional... and deeply evocative of a sense of spirituality. I would strongly recommend this recording to anyone already fond of Górecki's 3rd Symphony.

**stlukesguild** · 12-30-2011, 04:51 PM

I picked up this disc a year ago but for whatever reason never got around to playing it over the holiday season... when its seemed most relevant. I finally got around to it this year. The Fantasia on Christmas Carols is just one of Vaughan-Williams' marvelous settings of folk and choral music... in this instance a setting of 4 well-known Christmas carols. Hodie: A Christmas Cantata, however, is the centerpiece of this disc. This work, written when Vaughan-Williams was into his eighties, shows no sign of waning energies. The piece was dedicated to fellow British composer, Herbert Howells, known especially for his choral work. The work is distinctly English... building upon the English traditions of choral music and anthems. The music also reveals the various aspects of Vaughan-Williams' own work... with elements of the pastoral and the dynamic anthems and lush orchestration.

**Climacus** · 12-30-2011, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Wagner, Debussy, Scriabin and others were already pushing the limitations of traditional tonality and these efforts opened up a new world of expressive possibilities . . . In each instance it took someone to take the ultimate logical step toward a complete abandonment of figuration or traditional tonality.

The logical step? But with whose premises? There are qualitative differences between the premises of Schoenberg and those of the others mentioned. None of the others espoused the sort of all-encompassing musical egalitarianism that Schoenberg did. Of course, Schoenberg knew of the historical precedents. He knew that Liszt, for instance, had used a "tone-row." Schoenberg thought he could appropriate Christ's words, "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." But here he was wrong, I think. Schoenbergian atonality is only inevitable given certain dubious premises, regarding the consonance-dissonance dichotomy, regarding the acoustical nature of musical sound, regarding the purpose of art, and so on.

I have a lot of respect for Schoenberg. I've read more about him than any other composer. And I've studied all his theoretical works, even the posthumously-published unfinished ones. He was brilliant. But I think - that is, I came to think - that his premises were wrong, and that his philosophy of art was wrong.

I agree, by the way, that there are telling parallels between the development of music and that of the other arts, to say nothing of philosophy, and so on. As is usual, however, music lags a little behind.

**stlukesguild** · 01-01-2012, 07:52 PM

Exquisite! Barbara Hendricks' voice was light and silvery... yet with a tinge of a deeper sensuality... perfectly suited to much of the French repertoire. For whatever reason EMI has been dumping these two-disc sets by Hendricks and subsequently Amazon Marketplace dealers have been offering them for ridiculous prices. I could not resist picking up the following:

$7

$8

$6

$6.50

$5.50... And from what I heard from the samples available on Amazon these Christmas carols and beloved songs from childhood are marvelously performed.

A belated Christmas gift to myself. I've been very good.

**Mutatis-Mutandis** · 01-05-2012, 12:15 AM

Hey, StLukes, you said this in another thread:

And...? The art galleries are filled with equally excretory works as are the concerts of contemporary classical music.

If you have the time, could you (or anyone else, agree ro disagree) elaborate? I'm not at all familiar with contemporary classical music (I still have much to learn about the masters), which is why I ask.

**Charles Darnay** · 01-05-2012, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

Hey, StLukes, you said this in another thread:

If you have the time, could you (or anyone else, agree ro disagree) elaborate? I'm not at all familiar with contemporary classical music (I still have much to learn about the masters), which is why I ask.

While I cannot claim to be an expert on contemporary classical music, most of my experience with it has been pieces like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRuxHVWfQtA
which I am not a fan of. My high school music teacher composed a (not sure what it was) based on the Apocalypse. It was actually pretty good, wish I could find it.

**Mutatis-Mutandis** · 01-05-2012, 12:42 AM

Well, if thats a reflection of most contemporary classical music, I don't need much explaining, because that sucked.

I'm all for atonality, but that was just boring, and sounded like it should be background music for a crappy horror movie. Honestly, I didn't listen to the whole thing, just skipped around, so maybe I missed something, but I'm pretty sure I didn't.

**stlukesguild** · 01-05-2012, 02:18 AM

**Mutatis-Mutandis** · 01-05-2012, 10:33 AM

Quite interesting. Some of that made me cringe, some made me laugh, and the Henry Cowell definitely piqued my beagle's interest. Can't say any of it will be going onto any of my playlists, though, especially those last two. I can sort of understand how one may think a heavy metal fan would like those last two, as many perceive metal to just be "noise," but it does contain melody and structure (usually complex), but that was just noise, pure and simple.

I think for a lot of that it could be argued as to whether or not it's even music, honestly. After all, where do we draw the line?

**Emil Miller** · 01-05-2012, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

Quite interesting. Some of that made me cringe, some made me laugh, and the Henry Cowell definitely piqued my beagle's interest. Can't say any of it will be going onto any of my playlists, though, especially those last two. I can sort of understand how one may think a heavy metal fan would like those last two, as many perceive metal to just be "noise," but it does contain melody and structure (usually complex), but that was just noise, pure and simple.

I think for a lot of that it could be argued as to whether or not it's even music, honestly. After all, where do we draw the line?

It is always advantageous to seek the advice of experienced musicians such as Sir Thomas Beecham when discussing music and especially in discussing modern music. Asked if he had ever conducted any Stockhausen, he said, "No, but I once trod in some."
Yesterday morning I spent half-an-hour listening to a Bach partita played on the harpsichord and had to agree with Sir Thomas that it was like two skeletons copulating on a corrugated tin roof. It was a relief to find on Youtube this wonderful performance of possibly the greatest piano concerto ever written, and yes I do know the Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms equivalent works that I got to know long before. From 8.26, you can hear God walking across the keyboard.

http://youtu.be/FQK-M54HQX4

**stlukesguild** · 01-06-2012, 02:04 AM

Emil... I agree with you... to a given extent. While I like the sound of of the harpsichord as it it is used in playing continuo... or establishing the rhythm in Baroque music, I have long preferred the piano as opposed to the harpsichord when listening to the solo keyboard works and keyboard concertos, sonatas, etc... of the same period. I think Beecham was on to something in that the harpsichord, as it has long been recorded, sounds overly loud... jangly... jarring... and lacking in subtlety. This may change as new performers and subsequent harpsichord builders and sound engineers have learned how to play the instrument, how to place the microphones, and how to construct (or reconstruct) the instruments properly.

The harpsichord, by its very mechanical nature, does not allow for subtle dynamic variations (or control of how loud or soft a note sounds or how long it resonates). Bach must have vastly preferred the organ where he most certainly did have control of these elements (and it might be noted that many of his major keyboard works never stipulated which instrument(s) were to be employed. Nevertheless, the harpsichord, like the organ, has the ability to play different "timbres" so that it need not always sound at the loudest and most metallic. This performance by Andreas Staier illustrates just how delicate the instrument can sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQTqn...eature=related

By the way... I quite like Beecham's work... but he could actually be a brutal critic of many artists, composers, and works that are of real merit:

On J.S. Bach- "Too much counterpoint; what is worse, Protestant counterpoint."

On the music of Frederick Delius- "I found it as alluring as a wayward woman and determined to tame it."

On Beethoven's great late string quartets- "Beethoven’s last quartets were written by a deaf man and should only be listened to by a deaf man"

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