Sense and Sensibility Discussion

[kiki1982]

I think it was her love of money. She fell in love with Edward and saw a great future as grand lady (only being the niece of a teacher). But, after years of engagement, when their relationship finally comes out, Edward is disinherite. So, she can make a big black cross over her future as grand lady and will become 'just' a clergyman's wife (=have a lot less money than anticipated). But, the brother, who is now the heir, has an eye on her and she decides to switch brothers and secure her future as grand lady...

I think that was it. She was a little bit of a selfish nasty cow. A little like her sister-in-law, actually.

[mona amon]

That said, with any luck, she would have been a widow at a reasonable age and could have married again.

It wasn't only the age difference that put me off. I never felt that 18 year old Jane was making a mistake by marrying almost 40 year old Rochester; there's so much chemistry between them. But with Marianne and Colonel Brandon we just don't see how she overcame her initial contempt for his flannel waistcoats and rheumatism and unromantic ways. We are told that it happened, but we're not made to feel it, IMO, so it's not very convincing. Do they exchange any conversation at all? I really can't remember any, but that could just be my faulty memory.

[kiki1982]

I thought it was that passage about 'after a three week absence in which CB could do nothing in the evening hours but calculate the difference between 36 (?) and 17, brought him back to Barton in low spirits.' And then something about the fact tat he needed all the improvement of Marianne's spirits and all the encouragement of her mother...



I think we are led to believe that Marianne has changed her mind. However, maybe her mother helped a little... She, as his future mother-in-law, definitely participates in the encouragement he receives... At any rate, for her it's also a win, because she'l never have true financial trouble again.

The question is what went on at their first meeting after her near-death.

[aamir]

It wasn't only the age difference that put me off. I never felt that 18 year old Jane was making a mistake by marrying almost 40 year old Rochester; there's so much chemistry between them. But with Marianne and Colonel Brandon we just don't see how she overcame her initial contempt for his flannel waistcoats and rheumatism and unromantic ways. We are told that it happened, but we're not made to feel it, IMO, so it's not very convincing. Do they exchange any conversation at all? I really can't remember any, but that could just be my faulty memory.

I agree kind of. However, I think that this book, because it was Austen's first novel, is lacking of experience. It could have been much thicker, and intricate, and outline the finer points of the development of their relationship. On the other hand, I think without that it makes the story more entertaining, so I don't know.

[Janine]

Just a side note here and a suggestion. I have read this books many years ago and I love the film adapation by Ang Lee. The screenplay won best Oscar and was written by Emma Thompson. I think if you saw the story acted out on film, you would understand CB and the subtle relationship which forms between he and Marianne. I just love the film and have seen it many times over by now...one of my favorite novel adaptations. I agree that Willoughby was pretty low to have hurt two (used) woman as he did; but I think even in his character we can find some sense of human frality and forgiveness, when interpretted in the film version; he is very much dictated to by his fortune and it is true that he and Edward are very different. If I had the time, I would re-read the book; but I don't presently. Still it's interesting to read all of your comments. It's a lovely story and I think that Marianne will indeed be very happy at sometime having married CB.

[isidro]

Marianne, as I think a lot of women and people in general do, had to stop and listen not necessarily to reason but to silence long enough to hear her own heart really talking and I think that is what occasioned her eventual decision.

[aamir]

I kind of agree with Janine, but this is the book we're talking about, not the film (which I haven't seen by the way).

[kiki1982]

Just a side note here and a suggestion. I have read this books many years ago and I love the film adapation by Ang Lee. The screenplay won best Oscar and was written by Emma Thompson. I think if you saw the story acted out on film, you would understand CB and the subtle relationship which forms between he and Marianne. I just love the film and have seen it many times over by now...one of my favorite novel adaptations. I agree that Willoughby was pretty low to have hurt two (used) woman as he did; but I think even in his character we can find some sense of human frality and forgiveness, when interpretted in the film version; he is very much dictated to by his fortune and it is true that he and Edward are very different. If I had the time, I would re-read the book; but I don't presently. Still it's interesting to read all of your comments. It's a lovely story and I think that Marianne will indeed be very happy at sometime having married CB.

Yes, I think it is amazing how Willoughby gets somehow redeemed a little... It was one of the great surprises. Much like the one of Darcy... (not to spoil it for Aamir) I think that is very skilful writing.

[mona amon]

Kiki, are you talking about the film or the book? I haven't seen the film yet, but in the book I don't feel he gets redeemed at all. All we find out is that he did love Marianne, in his way, and I never for a moment doubted that.

I really feel that Austen didn't have to make Willoughby quite so bad. A weak young man who didn't have the courage to risk marrying Marrianne would have been enough. Did he have to be such a cad and seducer into the bargain?

[kiki1982]

I am talking about the book. I can't remember the film... Saw it once or twice (the first time not reading Austen), but the end was different according to the teacher. I think it is the fct that there is no conversation between Wiloughby and Elinor... Fans, please help me out here.

I think the difference between us lies in the fact that you didn't doubt his love where I did.

At the moment where he sends back the letter to Marianne after ignoring her a while, I really was astonished. And then the thing about that girl he eloped with and abandoned heavily pregnant... I really had something like: 'phew. That was a close call for Marianne.' I think that that chapter where he talks to Elinor is important for theones who doubted him.

I don't know, I thought that all that was really intended to make us, and him doubt... And then have the aunt say: ' might have let you marry her if you had only told me...' nana. Actually he is really (loathsomely) pitiable.

Isn't it ironic that CB needs to clear up the mess of Willoughby in two women?

[mona amon]

I think the difference between us lies in the fact that you didn't doubt his love where I did.

In that case, he would certainly seem a little redeemed in the end. Marrianne was my favourite character in this book, so I guess I refused to believe that her judgement could be completely wrong.

I wonder why Colonel Brandon doesn't warn the two girls about Willoughby. Is that explained in the book?

[kiki1982]

Marianne wasn't really the problem for me. One can see anything he likes when in love... I guess it was his conduct in London hat mad it 'obvious' that he had been having her on...

The grounds for CB not telling the two about the eloping of Willoughby, I think, lie in all-governing discretion. The reputation you had in society largely depended upon your own conduct in public. Sadly not on things you did somewhere else, unless they had been heroic. Certainly bad/dishonorable things were never told of out of discretion for the other. So CB does not tell of the fact that Willoughby eloped, never got married, still got the girl pregnant (when he gets that letter in the middle of that party at the Middletons) because he does not want to disgrace Willoughby, as that is improper. On top of that, telling the whole story would also get his own past into the bargain (the mother of the girl who is his old love) and that is irelevant. Not that it is embarrasing, but it's not nice that everyone knows your past... So he tells nothing, with this result. I think he feels guilty by the end about it and therefore makes up at least with Ferrars (to touch one of the sisters at least). It's another Austen-big-laugh about manners and how they affect the rest (badly).

POSSIBLE SPOILERS ABOUT P&P

Remember that Mr Darcy never spoke about Wickham, which he should have done from the start. Even at the point where Lizzie knows, she cannot tell out of discretion for Darcy's sister. Up to the point of course that Lydia elopes. Something they could have foreseen long before that... That is a little more dishonorable, though, but the situation lies in the same line...

POSSIBLE SPOILERS OVER