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Thread: The Existance of Love

  1. #1
    Apathetic Beyond Reason Apathy's Avatar
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    The Existance of Love

    I had a conversation with my sister the the other day in which debated over the existance of Love. I argued that it did Exist and was most powerful thing in the world but was misused and overused by people nowadays. She argued that it wasn't real and that it was ridiculous for me, of all people, to believe. I believe main confusion in the matter is the fact that the english language is highly ristricted; it has only one word for Love, or witch, or magic, which all have various definitions. In ancient Greek, there are 5 words for love. Our word 'Love' is the same in relation to your mother, your siblings, your pets, your girl/boyfriend, or even your god. It is even used as pseudonym for sex.
    The only thing worse than the thought that it may all come tumbling down is the thought that we may go on like this forever
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    Ditsy Pixie Niamh's Avatar
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    Hi Apathy,
    We have has some previous discussions on the topic here on the forum. If you are interested in reading over one of them, you'll find it via this link.
    http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=43992
    "Come away O human child!To the waters of the wild, With a faery hand in hand, For the worlds more full of weeping than you can understand."
    W.B.Yeats

    "If it looks like a Dwarf and smells like a Dwarf, then it's probably a Dwarf (or a latrine wearing dungarees)"
    Artemins Fowl and the Lost Colony by Eoin Colfer


    my poems-please comment Forum Rules

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    Skol'er of Thinkery The Comedian's Avatar
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    Of course love exists; our only struggle, as you note in your post, is what to call it.
    Oh crap
    -- Hellboy

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    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    It exists alright, but it exists on a rational basis, being a combination of conditioning and material events in the brain.

    Denying it's a bit silly.

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    Apathetic Beyond Reason Apathy's Avatar
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    I am not talking about the biological love an infant feels for it's mother, nor the protective love of a mother, nor even the love of a mate that Freud talks about. I am speaking of the all-consuming, irrational kind of love that showcases in books such as 'Twilight', 'Romeo and Juliet', or 'The Named'.(when I refer to this love I will use 'L' instead of 'l'; love vs. Love)
    the only standard things about Love(not love) appear to be:
    1) You can't control who you fall in Love with
    2) You don't have to like someone to Love them
    3) You can not fall out of Love
    4) Just because you Love one person, does not mean you can not love someone else.
    The only thing worse than the thought that it may all come tumbling down is the thought that we may go on like this forever
    -Violet('Feed' by M.T. Anderson)-

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    Apathetic Beyond Reason Apathy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    Denying it's a bit silly.
    The reason my sister said it was ridiculous for me to believe in Love is because I deny the existance of 'good' and 'evil' and many many other things that people think are concrete facts.
    The only thing worse than the thought that it may all come tumbling down is the thought that we may go on like this forever
    -Violet('Feed' by M.T. Anderson)-

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    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apathy View Post
    The reason my sister said it was ridiculous for me to believe in Love is because I deny the existance of 'good' and 'evil' and many many other things that people think are concrete facts.
    Yes, they're a bit different, though.

    Love, hate, jealousy, etc. don't exist on their own, they exist as human emotions, and whether they're conditioned or innate, they certainly exist.

    Good and evil are simply human constructs and unquantifiable. Accordingly, as you note, they are worthless and don't actually exist.

    People have trouble with concrete facts. They usually prefer soft, squishy ones that can be shaped to fit their beliefs.

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    sound of music soundofmusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apathy View Post
    I am not talking about the biological love an infant feels for it's mother, nor the protective love of a mother, nor even the love of a mate that Freud talks about. I am speaking of the all-consuming, irrational kind of love that showcases in books such as 'Twilight', 'Romeo and Juliet', or 'The Named'.(when I refer to this love I will use 'L' instead of 'l'; love vs. Love)
    the only standard things about Love(not love) appear to be:
    1) You can't control who you fall in Love with
    2) You don't have to like someone to Love them
    3) You can not fall out of Love
    4) Just because you Love one person, does not mean you can not love someone else.
    Your idea is very thought provoking:
    I have no data on this; but my belief is that:
    1. A baby doesn't feel love for its mother; but dependency and familiarity.( I recall, as a young mother, that I was very awkward with my daughter and she much prefered the nurse, my mother, even my father to me) Bonding came much later.
    2.I do recall that when I heard my daughter in the nursery, I automatically knew her cry from all the other infants; I also recall that I was protective almost to the point of paranoia (I blamed that on excess estrogen; as I did my suddenly lowered IQ)
    3. I think that our mate may begin as an irrational love, like the one in Twilight; remember that all of these people began with a relationship they had to fight for, their friends were trying to separate them, they became so focused on the fight that all of that excess energy made them feel as if it was directed toward the person themselves...After you are with a person, become comfortable, there is nothing left to fight for and it is easy to take them for granted.
    4. In my own personal experience, it is very difficult to control who you love; because we are at the mercy of our unconscious, visual memories so far back that we don't even remember them. Alot of my ideas of the perfect man came from watching my father's gangster films; so I am always attracted to sociopaths.
    5. Falling out of love is easier if you do it first; no, I'm not joking. If you tire of the person and they bore you and you leave; you may never think of them again. If they leave you, like in the case of Bella, in Twilight; you spend the rest of your days comparing every other lover to them.
    6. Sometimes you love someone for old reasons, they are the father of your child, they helped you through a bad patch; but sometimes you stop liking who they are.
    7.And lastly, you can love two people for entirely different reasons; it has worked for years in different countries. If you think of the two men who Bella loves: one is immature, poor, close to the earth, has a large connected family and can give her children; the other is powerful, rich, illusive...she can love both.

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    People who don't want to see the error of their ways classify good and bad as unquantifiable. Emotions are quite a bit more temperamental and make much less sense altogether than morality. Morality is at least something that is somewhat stable. Talk to any pregnant woman and you find emotions bouncing off walls in wild abandon.

    Love is discernable at least when you would give your life and any comfort for a person long after you first made your love known and it was accepted and when due to their shortcomings you also wouldn't mind flinging them by their hair across the room.

  10. #10
    sound of music soundofmusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isidro View Post
    you find emotions bouncing off walls in wild abandon.
    Love is discernable at least when you would give your life and any comfort for a person long after you first made your love known and it was accepted and when due to their shortcomings you also wouldn't mind flinging them by their hair across the room.
    You're right, Isidro. I was shocked sometime ago when I relized that wild abandon was not merely something experienced by pregnant women and teenagers; It can happen at almost any age. That is exactly why I have decided to stay a widow against all my friends protest!

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    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    Yes, they're a bit different, though.

    Love, hate, jealousy, etc. don't exist on their own, they exist as human emotions, and whether they're conditioned or innate, they certainly exist.

    Good and evil are simply human constructs and unquantifiable. Accordingly, as you note, they are worthless and don't actually exist.

    People have trouble with concrete facts. They usually prefer soft, squishy ones that can be shaped to fit their beliefs.
    I would disagree - I would think Good and Evil exist in the same frame as the concept of love and hate - what we personally decide is good or evil (if those two actually are opposites, depending on our thinking) is the same rationale arguably, that dictates what we love and hate.


    In practice, it equates to something like - I love my wife because - something which isn't exactly easy to put into words of course, given the nature of the feeling, which is, in itself, continuous, and ever changing, and subject to different degrees of sincerity, amongst other factors.

    And then in contrast, I think you are a Bad person, or the action you have just done is "bad" or "rude" rather because... sometimes even that is hard to quantify in words, depending on the nuance and articulateness of the person, not to mention a billion other factors, such as the contributor to the sense of write and wrong, the state and mood at the time of judgment, and the biases held against the causation, or nature of the thing being evaluated as good or bad in itself.

    So on those grounds, I would have to disagree with you. I believe in Good and Bad, Right and Wrong, Love and Hate, and any other number of binaries and subjectivity - simply because I believe when people rationalize about things, ultimately, they create these constructs, and make them real within their own frames of reference. If that isn't real, than I don't know what is.

    Nobody who has experienced real emotion, on any level, and real feelings can deny their existence - they are subjective, of course, but that doesn't make them less real.

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    Apathetic Beyond Reason Apathy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    I would disagree - I would think Good and Evil exist in the same frame as the concept of love and hate - what we personally decide is good or evil (if those two actually are opposites, depending on our thinking) is the same rationale arguably, that dictates what we love and hate.


    In practice, it equates to something like - I love my wife because - something which isn't exactly easy to put into words of course, given the nature of the feeling, which is, in itself, continuous, and ever changing, and subject to different degrees of sincerity, amongst other factors.

    And then in contrast, I think you are a Bad person, or the action you have just done is "bad" or "rude" rather because... sometimes even that is hard to quantify in words, depending on the nuance and articulateness of the person, not to mention a billion other factors, such as the contributor to the sense of write and wrong, the state and mood at the time of judgment, and the biases held against the causation, or nature of the thing being evaluated as good or bad in itself.

    So on those grounds, I would have to disagree with you. I believe in Good and Bad, Right and Wrong, Love and Hate, and any other number of binaries and subjectivity - simply because I believe when people rationalize about things, ultimately, they create these constructs, and make them real within their own frames of reference. If that isn't real, than I don't know what is.

    Nobody who has experienced real emotion, on any level, and real feelings can deny their existence - they are subjective, of course, but that doesn't make them less real.
    While I believe that all these thing exist at some level, 'Good' and 'Evil' are cultural constructs while love(and Love) are universal concepts.
    The only thing worse than the thought that it may all come tumbling down is the thought that we may go on like this forever
    -Violet('Feed' by M.T. Anderson)-

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    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apathy View Post
    While I believe that all these thing exist at some level, 'Good' and 'Evil' are cultural constructs while love(and Love) are universal concepts.
    Saved me a job. Pretty basic stuff.

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    1912 Dirtbag's Avatar
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    Like oxytocin and serotonin exist... there's no chemical of evil. Evil-doers are consciously making decisions and acting out against societal expectations of what is right. If they're not doing it consciously, then I'd say they're not evil and are just crazy sociopaths. If there was no society to expect others to do what was right, then I'd say you could do no wrong. But in the same notion... if you lived in an empty world without people, without a society, you'd have noone to trigger your love chemicals. Both love and goodness exist because of others.

    I believe good and evil are just words used to define ideas and actions that exist on opposite sides of a continuum of opinion. As long as you have people existing, you'll have people thinking people are existing improperly. This conflict of ideas and actions is as real as your brain secretions.

    /redundant post

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    Apathetic Beyond Reason Apathy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtbag View Post
    Like oxytocin and serotonin exist... there's no chemical of evil. Evil-doers are consciously making decisions and acting out against societal expectations of what is right. If they're not doing it consciously, then I'd say they're not evil and are just crazy sociopaths. If there was no society to expect others to do what was right, then I'd say you could do no wrong. But in the same notion... if you lived in an empty world without people, without a society, you'd have noone to trigger your love chemicals. Both love and goodness exist because of others.

    I believe good and evil are just words used to define ideas and actions that exist on opposite sides of a continuum of opinion. As long as you have people existing, you'll have people thinking people are existing improperly. This conflict of ideas and actions is as real as your brain secretions.

    /redundant post
    Evil exists because of good, love exists conceptually because hate exists but it would exist without hate, just have no meaning
    The only thing worse than the thought that it may all come tumbling down is the thought that we may go on like this forever
    -Violet('Feed' by M.T. Anderson)-

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