I personally think celibacy can be very beneficial if you are living a certain lifestyle or have a particular purpose. I cannot agree that it is a lifestyle for the main stream.
I am more productive when everything in my life is in balance. If celibacy means things are harmonious for someone, than it sounds like it has particular advantages. However, I wouldn't expect most people to understand or agree with such research based advantages.
Spoiling Max. I do not feel I have much of a choice about being active in the traditional sense of the term, and perhaps that is an error on my part, but this isn't the disability sex e-list, a community to which I am obliged for my sex article for New MobilityOriginally Posted by Maximilianus
You don't know how multitasking I can be ....
Sorry, you mean "dampen" in the sense of improving, or in the sense of spoiling?.
Sex with able-bodied men was tricky enough back when I was healthier. Today I am not sure I could enjoy it even if I met a fellow I could trust. In the spiritual sense, however, I do not believe chastity is sublime for any particular reason. To me, devotion seems to be a transference, and holy rollers simply trade physical pleasure for the emotional drama of the religious experience itself.
The Catholic Church knows full well that celibacy doesn't work; in Europe they look the other way; in America priests become abusers of other men, woman and children, and the church is damaged as a result, though I can't speak to Asian monk norms, but trading physical drives for spiritual drives seems to me just that, a trade.
I think that is a tad unfair just because some preists/monks have broken their vows doesn't mean celibacy as a practice doesn't work. It just means some people fail at it. It is not some unattainable ideal until relatively recently it was common practice.
My sister nearly withdrew her children from Catholic school when the scandal erupted and swept the country. In the context of keeping children safe, unfair is a bit mild. Believers cede their trust to that collar, and the senior management should excoriate such criminal activity.
It does not, but it also goes against human nature to make chastity some sort of superlative state. Humans are social primates. Physical contact and intimacy are important.
In other words, celibacy drives you nuts. It may be a benign nuts, in which case you're the Buddha, or it may be a malign nuts, in which case you're protected by the church - but either way, you're nuts.
And I use the words nuts advisedly, and without gender prejudice.
Celibacy is something that has more and more accentuated in many religions. But that whether it is practicable or not is questionable.
“Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””
“If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.
when talking about celibacy just look at the asexual community. they seem ok.
Shall these bones live?
There is great wisdom in celibacy and chastity. Chastity is essential as well as celibacy, it is not just a 'look but don't touch.' As Christ said, if you have any lust in you, then that is adultery. But it is quite possible to be pure of heart, or chaste. Don't think that it is not. The Buddha was very pure and not 'nuts,' but a great saint, and enlightening being. Mark one thing I have learned is, it's not good to randomly throw intoa post an out-of-context criticism of Christianity, say.
As to a couple people who say it is impossible or unhealthy. Well, Jozanny, physical intimacy and contact are not only sex. That can also be close physical contact, and many other forms of affection. One good reason for celibacy in marriage should be all the couples who have done it and reported their good results. The internet is not the best source to find these, it seems after some searching, but I have read some reports.
Again I would like to say, or maybe I have not said, celibacy/chastity when used as a part of spiritual life cannot come in a void. If life is all about materialistc pursuits, then dropping one activity will not work. One won't have any training or strength to do this. Spiritual life is not just abstaining from such things as intoxication or meat-eating, there is more that is necessary.
Lastly, I would postulate that it is not entirely as much about our genes as how we are raised, what values we are taught, and our society, peer group, and family. In this country we are taught and live one way. Yet it is not the only way nor the only healthy way, and to think so is merely to limit oneself by one's conditioning - which admittedly is hard not to do. In India, however, the norms and standards are different. Many Indian boys live as a brahmacari until they are married. And if they do not specifically live as a brahmacari, they still live almost as one.
One of the main reasons for chastity/celibacy is that it is essential for spiritual life. Actually all of one's life must be dedicated to spiritual life if one wishes to advance spiritually. We practice meditation and yoga in this country, but it is not a pure form. We practice 15 minutes a day, but we otherwise live the same, watch TV, drink alcohol and eat meat, but if we wished to practice yoga as it is meant to be practiced, then we would have to give up meat, alcohol, television, and so on. This is why one cannot simply give up sex and expect anything beneficial if the rest of one's life is so mundane.
Now, leaving aside the fact that for yoga to be practiced as it is meant to be means that we give up many types of material activities; there is something which must be mentioned and understood, which is the nature of lust.
Lust is never satisfied. When we 'satisfy' lust, we are not satisfying it at all, but reinforcing it, practicing the activity. I would encourage spiritual pursuit for the same reason Buddhists would: don't live this life only for your own comfort; search vigorously, do not mind some suffering, and find out who you really are, what you truly can be. Siddhartha, from Herman Hesse's novel of the same name, said, "I can do three things; think, wait, and fast." It is a wonderful book about the basic differences of life lived for comfort and one's own pleasure, and a life where one seeks something more.
All I can say is from personal experience that since living in a temple and practicing these vows of brahmacari, my life has improved dramatically. Learning this way of life is the best thing I've ever done.
My summary point is that it is not difficult, nor impossible, nor harmful, quite the opposite there is wisdom and great benefit from it. It is only difficult if we have been trained for it, over and over. It is difficult to go against such things. But if one is not taught that lust is inconquerable, then it is different. You see it is not like that at all. You simply make your own reality. Do you think it is impossible to gain self-control? Then it is. And if you are engrained with the belief that celibacy is harmful, then you will have no reason to ever try to be free of desire.
Also, there are some great teachers who taught chastity. Both the Buddha and Christ, as well as countless sages and saints since then, of several different religions; have taught purity as being necessary for spiritual life. Christ said, if you look upon a woman with lust, you have committed adultery. And for those who are not married, this means complete purity is necessary. And it is not an impossible standard to hold to. It is what you make it.
But again you can't take it in a void or a vacuum. You can't live with maya and expect to be a pure devotee. Whatever influences you accumulate around you in your life and environment, they will have their effect on you.
So if you, Mark, and whoever else, want to discredit persons such as Christ and Buddha as 'nuts,' or crazy, then do so. But you are missing out on something great - being free from desire. In my opinion, both Christ and Buddha were fully enlightened divine sages. And they are not the only ones. You may call me crazy also, that is fine. You are also discounting other great sages, including Sri Aurobindo, who was a much more brilliant soul than I will ever be... Srila Prabhupada as well. The world would do some good if it put some energy into purity of heart. It is not impossible to be as innocent as a child. As in Hindu practice, purity is understood as a pre-requisite for peace.
Last edited by NikolaiI; 09-07-2009 at 04:48 PM.
When I made serious point-by-point responses to your propositions, you ignored them. So I decided to try facetiousness.
I don't wish to discredit Christ (who never, as far as I remember, advocated celibacy). I just don't feel the need to agree with him - particularly given his limited experience of human life.
I tend to go along with this view, from Kingsley Amis.
Should you revisit us,
Stay a little longer,
And get to know the place.
Experience hunger,
Madness, disease and war.
You heard about them, true,
The last time you came here;
It's different having them.
And what about a go
At love, marriage, children?
All good, but bringing some
Risk of remorse and pain
And fear of an odd sort:
A sort one should, again,
Feel, not just hear about,
To be qualified as
A human-race expert.
On local life, we trust
The resident witness,
Not the royal tourist.
People have suffered worse
And more durable wrongs
Than you did on that cross
(I know—you won't get me
Up on one of those things),
Without sure prospect of
Ascending good as new
On the third day, without
"I die, but man shall live"
As a nice cheering thought.
So, next time, come off it,
And get some service in,
Jack, long before you start
Laying down the old law:
If you still want to then.
Tell your dad that from me.
Never mind, it's a mootdebate, deleted
Last edited by grotto; 09-08-2009 at 03:26 AM. Reason: pointless
Yes, but I may decide to make a practice of not replying when people mentiion illicit sex with a goat as being better than celibacy - which is even itself a step or two beyond facetiousness.
However, in reply to your question about Tolstoy, I did look it up and it wasn't in a fiction but it was a response to some people's questions about one of his works.
Last edited by NikolaiI; 09-08-2009 at 11:44 AM.
I don't think you have any right to assume it was illicit. For all you know, the goat may have been the initiating party.
In any case, the salient point remains valid - that the situation of monks and condemned men is similar, so if it was the celibacy that was giving rise to the benefits you suggest one would expect that they'd accrue for murderers too.
However, if they don't, then we'd be forced to conclude that it's not the celibacy that's getting the monks to a higher plane, so it must be the soup or - and here's a bit of a thought - the fact that they don't have to deal with the stresses of a job, a mortgage, a family, keeping a roof over their heads, or any the other things that pretty much hold a society together and that also, incidentally, generate the money that becomes alms for the mendicant monks.
As it happens, I was stuck on a train today for three hours with nothing to occupy me - and I just stared out of the window looking at a tree, and I got some very satisfying thinking done. I cleared up some stuff that has been bugging me and I determined a course of action to deal with some other stuff, all of which had fallen into perspective, I'm pleased to say. I really wish I could do that more often. I'm pretty sure that most people, given the time to sit and contemplate the infinite, would take a few tottering steps towards oneness, even if they were to get laid once in a while.
But - all I'm saying is - that should not be a central policy of a well-lived and unselfish human life.
Last edited by MarkBastable; 09-08-2009 at 01:16 PM.
It's obscene as well as illegal. It's not appropriate. My point was you had already passed beyond facetiousness into obscenity.
However the rest of your post is a normal one. I'm not trying to focus on that negative aspect.
Your point is not valid. I said before that being celibate does not make one a genius. Another absolutely essential point of my arguments which you ignored is that it is not simply celibacy in a void. Chastity is required as well, the goal is purity and spiritual life.
I believe anything is possible, and a murder could become enlightened, that is - know peace in his soul. However it is unlikely. Why? We train ourselves for different things, condition ourselves. The goal of spirituality, as according to Meher Baba, is to become free of the impressions of this life and innumerable past lives. If someone has spent a lifetime of evil, they are not going to simply become good for no reason.
Anger and hate have terrible effects on one's health. I am talking about a subtle difference between the life of someone who is already in the mode of goodness, and one who is then also celibate. That anger and hate, etc., have such negative effects is not just spiritual talk, it is scienticially proven. Surely you know this. Let's say one isn't living a brahmacari life in a spiritual asrama. Then it is probably still necessary, and for all the celibates I listed before this was true, that they have gotten their spiritual nourishment from other activities, such as pursuits in knowledge, art, etc. They were celibate so they would be able to focus better, because part of their life's work was dependent upon genius creative ability, which is not entirely separate from the ability to concentrate completely.
Last edited by NikolaiI; 09-08-2009 at 01:41 PM.
Yes, sir. Sorry, sir
That's exactly my valid point. Celibacy on its own is not going to do you any good.Your point is not valid. I said before that being celibate does not make one a genius. Another absolutely essential point of my arguments which you ignored is that it is not simply celibacy in a void. Chastity is required as well, the goal is purity and spiritual life.
Even if I believed that, I don't think I'd sign up for it. In fact, if I have past lives I'd like to visit them on a regular basis rather then escape them. It would be better than the telly.The goal of spirituality, as according to Meher Baba, is to become free of the impressions of this life and innumerable past lives.
Then we are making the same point...?That's exactly my valid point. Celibacy on its own is not going to do you any good.
I guess my main point is that one can look beyond America, and life in America is not the only way. In America we are immersed or saturated with images, suggestions, expectations, and pressure about sex. Images which are meant to arouse lust are everywhere, on the television, in magazines, on billboards, in store windows. So we are pressured so much to be lustful and then to try to satisfy that lust all the time. But as I pointed out earlier, lust isn't ever "satisfied." When you gratify it, it is like putting fuel on a fire, or you are simply practicing or enforcing the habit.
But my main point is that it is not necessary to think this way, it is not the only way. In other cultures, India being the main one I am thinking of, it is not like this, or it didn't used to be. In fact in our culture it didn't use to be like this either. Anyway - if the environment, persons around one, and all of the influences one on are of a different nature, let's say, spiritual, then one's life is very different. If all of the influences are spiritual, then one develops a pure, developed, spiritual mode of consciousness instead of a lusty consciousness.
That is the main thing, consciousness. It is all about that. And we can have a pure consciousness, and it is rather necessary to attaining peace, actually. It is much healthier as well. That is my position.
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