Racism

[AmericanEagle]

for instance, Native Canadians don't pay many forms of tax, and don't pay tuition to schools.

You're correct about the taxes, but Natives do not receive free tuition. Native students who attend school are charged tuition, which is paid through the money held in trust by the government. These monies were the result of treaty and monetary settlements that were made. The government then allocates this money to Native bands. Thus, it is Native money. Besides, the government doesn't allocate enough money for the Native bands, so some students may not even receive any of this money.

The fact that he had to apologize says differently.

Flaherty was running for party leadership at this time. He only apologized after Opposition parties called for his resignation. I don't want to get too political, but it seems that he apologized because he didn't want bad publicity.

[kratsayra]

I was going to participate in this, but then I decided I better not.

[Emil Miller]

I was going to participate in this, but then I decided I better not.

Why not? This sub-forum was set up in order that serious discussion could take place. There is no reason why potential contributors shouldn't be able to express an opinion, providing they don't resort to personal abuse and foul language or reduce the discussion to political point scoring.

[wessexgirl]

I couldn't agree more, I have only ever been stopped twice by the police, once in London and again in Paris. On both occasions I co-operated fully with their questions. As far as I'm concerned, they are the thin blue line between a diminishing order and total anarchy.

You seem to have an inordinate amount of faith in the Police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECMVdl-9SQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh0iN...eature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6THfDGy1hN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK_-U...eature=related

Disgraceful. The police think they are above the law.

Why not? This sub-forum was set up in order that serious discussion could take place. There is no reason why potential contributors shouldn't be able to express an opinion, providing they don't resort to personal abuse and foul language or reduce the discussion to political point scoring.

Interesting, as a large amount of your posts start out with a definite political viewpoint, which leave no doubts as to your feelings on the (paraphrasing) liberal, head-in-the-sand, left-leaning, erosion of values etc. that is post-war Britain. You never fail to get a dig in showing your beliefs. I don't know how you've escaped the notice of mods until now, but perhaps because some people haven't risen to responding to your statements.

[ImaginaryFriend]

i hate to be one of these people who says this americaneagle but why should a modern government have to pay to help natives when they should move with the times and join society. get over the past. think about it, when has bringing up the holocaust (which by the way resulteed in the deaths of millions of slavs, blacks, catholics, muslims and dissenters not only jews) ever been positive to a situation or argument. it is the last reort to bring it up when an argument is being lost.

so far virgil you have made me think about a lot of issues and i see most of your points so thank you.

sniping at others will not help the situation wessexgirl. i realise that this is a touchy issue but i hope we can all take a minute to calm down and rein in the posts to be about the original issue.

[Emil Miller]

You seem to have an inordinate amount of faith in the Police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HECMVdl-9SQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh0iN...eature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6THfDGy1hN4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK_-U...eature=related

Disgraceful. The police think they are above the law.

Why not? This sub-forum was set up in order that serious discussion could take place. There is no reason why potential contributors shouldn't be able to express an opinion, providing they don't resort to personal abuse and foul language or reduce the discussion to political point scoring.

Interesting, as a large amount of your posts start out with a definite political viewpoint, which leave no doubts as to your feelings on the (paraphrasing) liberal, head-in-the-sand, left-leaning, erosion of values etc. that is post-war Britain. You never fail to get a dig in showing your beliefs. I don't know how you've escaped the notice of mods until now, but perhaps because some people haven't risen to responding to your statements.

Well I haven't noticed yourself being slow off the mark in responding to some of my posts. What makes you think that the liberal/left are immune to criticism in a general rather than personal sense. I don't support any of the current crop of Westminster politicians, whatever their party, so I am not trying to score political points.
As for the videos, the first two show the police trying to contain a mob and the third incident was caused by a woman breaking the law with regard to an illegal film and her refusal to hand over the mobile phone containing it. The forth incident was enacted in the immediate aftermath of the London bombings when the police were in a high state of tension in trying to prevent another. As I said, the police are the thin blue line between a diminishing order and total anarchy. Apart from some rotten apples who have thrown in their lot with criminals, I am and always will be a very strong supporter of the police.

[ImaginaryFriend]

in the first video he was walking into the middle of a heated situation. not his fault but the police are not robots, they have emotions and sometimes make a bad call. we cant judge all cops on that.

in the second video she was told SEVERAL times that what she had done was illegal but refused to just co operate and let them see what she had filmed. no wonder the police got p****d off with her i would have too.

in the third vdieo she is screaming and swearing in the officers face so he pushes her back. after that instead of walking away like an adult she continues to do that and actually puts her hand on him. he may have used a little too much force but she has just as much responsibility for her injuries (a bruise as i remember).

and obviously the police were at fault in the fourth video ( and lied and tried to cover it up) but think of how many good officers are out there. its unfair to tar them all with the same brush.

saying that what did any of those videos have to do with the piont of this thread?

[caddy_caddy]

Anyone looking at American racial discussions from outside the country have this notion that blacks are kept down and racism is rampant. The fact is there is very little real racism any more. Any dispute between people of different races automatically gets blown up into a racial incidence. Yes obviously racism existed and still does in people's hearts. But institutionalized racism does not exist and if anything people give African-Americans the benfit of the doubt. This professor who specialized in Black Studies obviously has a chip on his shoulder.
This is the first time I know there is sth called Black Studies.
His very specialization makes him see racism where there isn't any. Let's be honest and maybe the color of one's skin will truely be insignificant. But it seems to me that the race consciousness comes from people who claim violations at every turn.

And just to point the absurdity out. We have a black President, we have the most popular media personin the country as black, Opra, we have the most widely sold musician as black, Michael Jackson, we have top paid actors such as Denzel Washington and Balley Berry, we have CEOs and other executives. Claiming institutionalized racism in today's society is a crock.

Who said so??! I think it is a good lesson for all nations to overcome their past
and have a new beginning. It is a real challenge .Yes obviously racism existed and still does in people's hearts. But institutionalized racism does not exist and if anything people give African-Americans the benfit of the doubt

Well ,then you agree that it still exists in the hearts although I don't know how we can see what belies within the hearts of others.

But it seems to me that the race consciousness comes from people who claim violations at every turn

.

I completely agree with you. We cannot cry racism everytime we face a problem or at any debate .
You mentioned the RACIAL CONSCIOUSNESS ;I think people who faces racism cannot get rid of it .it is indeed a big problem.For me
the most important question is how can we change this consciousness???

[MANICHAEAN]

Is it not strange that for those of white skin that have lived, and been prepared to mix, in many "black" African states e.g Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroons, Uganda, there are very few instances of reverse discrimination.
Are the values relating to race in these countries more mature & balanced?

[Virgil]

Oh, sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear - I meant in the sense that "I got laid off today because all the jobs are going to them Chinese", or "the black people are sucking all the money out of the economy, and now I lost my job", or "it's because of the Jews that we lost the war."

I don't know too many really rich people, but I don't think it's all that much different between different elements of society when it comes to those things. At least that's my impression.

To say that institutionalized racism does not exist is to ignore the foundation on which Canada and the United States was built. European colonists forcibly took Native lands, actively took measures to systematically annihilate the Native populations (smallpox blankets, deliberate slaughtering of their main food source: the buffalo, and just simply murdering them). Cultural genocide also took place through residential schools.

It is this history of colonialism and genocide that form the basis of how Native peoples are treated. Issues that affect Native populations are often ignored by the government, and there has yet to be an apology for the broken treaties.

In Canada, there are hundreds of missing Native women, and these cases go unnoticed by most Canadians because mainstream news outlets do not pick up the story. If these had been white women, the media would have been all over it.

The Canadian government continues to marginalize Native peoples to this day. In 2008, Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued an apology for Canada's role in the creation of residential schools. However, he failed to mention that the Canadian government committed an act of genocide. According to the UN Genocide Convention, "causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group," and "forcibly transferring children of the group to another group," constitutes an act of genocide. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to fully acknowledge and take responsibility for their horrendous treatment of Natives, and this lack of accountability continues to this day. For example, Native communities suffer from a shortage of clean drinking water (Kashechewan water crisis in 2005). Many Native reserves continue to be under boil-water advisories. Does this happen in communities where whites are the majority? Probably not.

The lack of acknowledgement of the genocide of Native populations around the world is also a form of institutional racism. When one mentions the word 'genocide,' the first thing that pops to mind is the Holocaust. While I'm not diminishing the horrific events that occurred during the Nazi regime, why is it that the Holocaust is privileged over other genocides? There were more victims of Native genocide than in the Holocaust, and the motives were the same.

The Canadian government also fails to adequately provide money for Native students' post-secondary tuition. This isn't free money by any means because all of these monies have been pre-paid when the treaties were made. Thus, the Canadian government refuses to give money to Natives that is rightly theirs.

I realize that most of my examples are Canadian because that is where I live, but I'm sure that similar injustices occur in other parts of the world, and that institutional racism exists.

I can't speak for Canada or anywhere else in the world, but there is no institutionalized racism in the US. I have no idea what the past history has to do with current status. Everyone acknowledges past history and corrections have been made the last 40 years in the US.

so far virgil you have made me think about a lot of issues and i see most of your points so thank you.

Why thank you. I'm glad I made a difference.

[wessexgirl]

in the first video he was walking into the middle of a heated situation. not his fault but the police are not robots, they have emotions and sometimes make a bad call. we cant judge all cops on that.

in the second video she was told SEVERAL times that what she had done was illegal but refused to just co operate and let them see what she had filmed. no wonder the police got p****d off with her i would have too.

in the third vdieo she is screaming and swearing in the officers face so he pushes her back. after that instead of walking away like an adult she continues to do that and actually puts her hand on him. he may have used a little too much force but she has just as much responsibility for her injuries (a bruise as i remember).

and obviously the police were at fault in the fourth video ( and lied and tried to cover it up) but think of how many good officers are out there. its unfair to tar them all with the same brush.

saying that what did any of those videos have to do with the piont of this thread?

So an innocent man walking home, with his hands in his pockets, and no threat to anyone, gets a baton round his legs, and gets pushed over? How many police were there? I didn't see Tomlinson causing any problems.

A woman takes a picture on her mobile phone and gets treated as if she was a major criminal. If it wasn't for the prevalence of mobile phone cameras, incidents such as Tomlinson's wouldn't have come to light. I'm shocked that you think that treatment is ok.

In the third incident, a policeman reacts to a protestor with a baton, and a slap from a gauntletted hand. She was exercising her right to protest at what had happened, namely the police giving the rough treatment to someone else. Why did that thug, in the uniform of a policeman, cover his number up before the protest? Because he had every intention of behaving as he did. I believe he's been in trouble before. If a grown man who is supposed to be a force for law and order can't restrain himself and take the protests of a woman shouting at him, he shouldn't be in the job.

As for the fourth case, how can the police follow an innocent man all the way to the tube and shoot him 7 times in the head? There are all sorts of questions to answer, which I'm sure anyone familiar with the case will know, so I won't go into detail.

As for "sniping", as you call it, and in answer to your last point, I think my post was perfectly relevant to this thread. I was responding to the statements of blind obedience to the police, when there are numerous cases where this should be questioned. No-one is above the law, police officers included, and I think I have every right to state this, as I have every right to see many of the points made on many different topics, as political.

[AmericanEagle]

i hate to be one of these people who says this americaneagle but why should a modern government have to pay to help natives when they should move with the times and join society. get over the past.

How can they get over the past when the legacy of colonialism continues to this day?

[Virgil]

Who said so??! I think it is a good lesson for all nations to overcome their past
and have a new beginning. It is a real challenge .Yes obviously racism existed and still does in people's hearts. But institutionalized racism does not exist and if anything people give African-Americans the benfit of the doubt

Well ,then you agree that it still exists in the hearts although I don't know how we can see what belies within the hearts of others..

I completely agree with you. We cannot cry racism everytime we face a problem or at any debate .
You mentioned the RACIAL CONSCIOUSNESS ;I think people who faces racism cannot get rid of it .it is indeed a big problem.For me
the most important question is how can we change this consciousness???

Caddy your highlighting has confused me. As best I can respond, yes there is no doubt that some racism exists in some people's heart. (Let me distinguish racism, which is prejudice, with pre-judgements which are linked to rational associations.) Some people will hold racist views, and I imagine that's around the world and universal to a degree. I'm not saying that's extinguished. But the ability for those people to affect the lives of those they hold those views against those they hate is small, and again I only speak for the US. We have all sorts of Equal Opportunity laws which enforce and investigate claims and push minorities up. For the most part those things are good, though i would like a day when we don't have to such efforts.

As to how to end this consciousness. Well, it was my contention that the Prof Gates and the Jesse Jacksons of the world actually promote race consciousness. The question has to be, why does this consciousness exist for black americans and not for asians or jews or Italians, or other ethnic groups. Perhaps given the war on terror, there may be a slight suspicion when it comes to muslims, I grant you, but they certainly aren't in a ghetto with lack of education and high crime rates. I believe the race consciousness will end when African-Americans break out of the problems that have plagued them and do not have the high crime rates, go on to high college graduation rates, and are prosperous. That is what every other ethnic group has done. Their claim that racism has held them back, while once true, just doesn't square with the facts of the last forty years. There is a sub-cultural phenomena (unmarried mothers, the valuing of sports over education, drug glorification, gangster values, etc.) going on. Bill Cosby, by the way, has been very eloquent on this issue. Thos like Gates who perpetuate this race conscious attitude is diverting the black community with excuses that diverts them from real change.

I leave you with the say quote i left earlier from Thomas Sowell. "If jews had waited for the end of anti-semitism to make it in America, they would still be waiting."

[The Atheist]

The dispute was taken outside.

Sorry mate; I know this is going back over a page, but it bothers me greatly.

You are basing your opinion on what happened on knowing what some witnesses claim to have seen at some time after the altercation started.

I find it incredible that their "evidence" would give any kind of clear picture of what had, and was, happening, yet you have decided the truth based solely upon that.

I have no dog in this fight, so I'm perfectly objective on the whole thing. It seems obvious to me that every side is seeing it through their own-coloured spectacles and taking it as gospel.

The saddest part of the entire episode is summed up by this piece - which will also help Brian realise why some people do heavily distrust cops!

[Admin]

The real racist in all this is Mr. Gates. He was the one being race conscious. The police were doing their duty. He automatically jumped to a racial conclusion. He automatically decided that any scrutiny had as a absolute given be racially motivated.

I have said it many times, do not trust what the media puts out. In every case where I have been intimately knowledgable of a news story facts (either because it was a neighborhood event or related to my line of work) there are incredible mistakes in every news article. There is a reason that news is not consider solid history.

For the ramifications of this, since our President appears to have put his foot in his mouth, you can read through this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...56M5NM20090723

I've also said this. Anyone who thinks they understand the workings of another country by simply reading their newspapers and watching their movies is seriously deluding themselves.

I agree with Virgil. The hispanic and black officers back up the white officer. Furthermore the white officer was hand picked by his black superior to teach police cadets about racial profiling, and he has a history of not being racist (ie, giving a dying black athlete mouth to mouth, something a racist isn't going to do).

Unfortunately behavior like Gates' is all too common, purposefully trying to become a victim, to be incendiary, to create a controversy.

For all we know it was all staged. Is it so far fetched to believe he concocted an idea after his home was broken into 1 month earlier that he would try to stage another break in, sitting pounding on his own door until the cops show up, then do his best to get arrested, to create a national controversy, get tons of attention for himself, and so make money by selling books? He is going to end up significantly financially benefiting from this whole fiasco. Talk shows, and speaking engagements, and book deals.

What, that kind of scheming is unlikely from a "Harvard professor"? This is the guy who was throwing "Yo momma" insults at the police, he does not seem that honorable to me.

Unfortunately he tried to pin it on the most unlikely white officer on the force.

Sorry mate; I know this is going back over a page, but it bothers me greatly.

You are basing your opinion on what happened on knowing what some witnesses claim to have seen at some time after the altercation started.

I find it incredible that their "evidence" would give any kind of clear picture of what had, and was, happening, yet you have decided the truth based solely upon that.

I have no dog in this fight, so I'm perfectly objective on the whole thing. It seems obvious to me that every side is seeing it through their own-coloured spectacles and taking it as gospel.

The saddest part of the entire episode is summed up by this piece - which will also help Brian realise why some people do heavily distrust cops!

The problem with anecdotal evidence, is that it is worthless.

For every case of someone innocent being coerced into a confession, there is a case of a killer getting free on a technicality and murdering someone else. For every case of police abuse, there is a case of someone like Gates purposefully trying to generate police abuse either for attention, or to get off, or whatever else. There is even a whole "suicide by cop" thing where people try to get cops to shoot them so their family can sue the city. Call it "ghetto life insurance" if you will.

No, the criminal justice system is not perfect, but it sounds like in the specific incidence discussed here it was done by the book.