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Thread: Racism

  1. #1

    Question Racism

    OK this is my first time starting a new thread so please bear with me

    I know that not all the facts are known about the issue with the harvard professor but the whole thing got me thinking about race relations. Are people too quick to cry 'racism'?

    In this particular incident it is hard to believe the man was arrested for being black and easier to belive that he was just being rude to the cops. I live in britain and no matter who you are, if you are rude, aggressive or disorderly towards the police you get arrested.

    What im asking is this
    Doesnt crying 'racism' over trivial issues like this cause further strains on race relations? I would hate to see a world where police are to afraid to arrest someone because they dont share the same skin colour.

    And how will we ever be able to resolve and get past racism if everytime something goes wrong for a member of a minority they blame everyone else instead of taking responsibility for their own lives?
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    A moment of pain perhaps.
    Something dead which still seems to be alive.
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  2. #2
    Super papayahed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryFriend View Post
    In this particular incident it is hard to believe the man was arrested for being black and easier to belive that he was just being rude to the cops. I live in britain and no matter who you are, if you are rude, aggressive or disorderly towards the police you get arrested.
    I find it very easy to believe. I personally know police officers that use their power to intimidate and badger in an attempt to get people to behave badly. (Edit: to add I also know very fine upstanding police officers)

    It's not an easy subject and I don't think one sweeping judgement can be made for all cases.
    Last edited by papayahed; 07-23-2009 at 06:26 PM.
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  3. #3
    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryFriend View Post
    OK this is my first time starting a new thread so please bear with me

    I know that not all the facts are known about the issue with the harvard professor but the whole thing got me thinking about race relations. Are people too quick to cry 'racism'?

    In this particular incident it is hard to believe the man was arrested for being black and easier to belive that he was just being rude to the cops. I live in britain and no matter who you are, if you are rude, aggressive or disorderly towards the police you get arrested.

    What im asking is this
    Doesnt crying 'racism' over trivial issues like this cause further strains on race relations? I would hate to see a world where police are to afraid to arrest someone because they dont share the same skin colour.

    And how will we ever be able to resolve and get past racism if everytime something goes wrong for a member of a minority they blame everyone else instead of taking responsibility for their own lives?
    I don't know the incident to which you refer but your post will inevitably generate a wealth of replies from self-righteous head-in-the-sand wishful non-thinkers who have been brought up in the ultra-liberal sixties and beyond.
    As somebody who is English you should be aware that the greatest recruitment officers for the British National Party, who have recently won seats in the European Parliament, are those whose stupidity has created and are perpetuating the very sitaution that you are now beginning to question.

  4. #4
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    From what I know of the story, the whole thing was pretty silly. The professor contacted the Harvard police to vouch for his identity and his home ownership, but the campus cops had to cede jurisdiction to the city police, who apparently made the arrest because the old scholar became annoyed.

    My ex is a cop though, and he said if the police ask you to step outside, it is best not to argue.

  5. #5
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Before people rush to judgement I believe the news mis-reported this story initially. He was not arrested for breaking into his own home. He was arrested for disorderly conducted - he was verbally berating the police when then simply asked for identification. The police had twice asked him to stop with the insults and just show identification, and he just carried on. And while the main cop at the scene was white, along side him were a hispanic officer and a black officer. All the cops have denounced Gates' conduct. This is not a case of racial profiling, but of a disorderly person that refuse to cooperate.
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    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jozanny View Post
    From what I know of the story, the whole thing was pretty silly. The professor contacted the Harvard police to vouch for his identity and his home ownership, but the campus cops had to cede jurisdiction to the city police, who apparently made the arrest because the old scholar became annoyed.

    My ex is a cop though, and he said if the police ask you to step outside, it is best not to argue.
    I couldn't agree more, I have only ever been stopped twice by the police, once in London and again in Paris. On both occasions I co-operated fully with their questions. As far as I'm concerned, they are the thin blue line between a diminishing order and total anarchy.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Before people rush to judgement I believe the news mis-reported this story initially. He was not arrested for breaking into his own home. He was arrested for disorderly conducted - he was verbally berating the police when then simply asked for identification. The police had twice asked him to stop with the insults and just show identification, and he just carried on. And while the main cop at the scene was white, along side him were a hispanic officer and a black officer. All the cops have denounced Gates' conduct. This is not a case of racial profiling, but of a disorderly person that refuse to cooperate.
    Exactly! if he had just done as he was told there would be no problem as it just sounds more like a personality clash than anything else.

    So why is he claiming racism? and why are people like obama jumping on the bandwagon (i expected it from al sharpton but not him)?

    Does saying this was racist, when it obviously was not, just make a mockery of the fight agaisnt racism and perhaps even set it back?
    What is a ghost?
    A tragedy condemned to repeat itself time and again?
    A moment of pain perhaps.
    Something dead which still seems to be alive.
    An emotion suspended in time.
    Like a blurred photograph.
    Like an insect trapped in amber.
    A ghost.
    That's what I am.

  8. #8
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    This a damn shame, and the whole thing is going to be no more than a typical "he said/he said" dogfight where people will choose to believe one side or the other.

    Are the cops lying each other up to cover for a gross mistake?

    Did the Prof. come over the smart-arse with the cops and get himself righteously booked?

    Was the Prof. right to be angry that cops walked straight into his own house without so much as knocking at the door?

    I have to confess that I would not be best pleased at cops wandering into my house, whether or not some idiot neighbour had called the cops. I'd also hope my neighbours would recognise me breaking in, so maybe there's a lesson there as well.

    Great fuel for both sides of the debate. If you have a lead suit and bulletproof vest, check out some of the racist sites for a good laugh. (Assuming you have strong stomachs)
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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  9. #9
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryFriend View Post
    So why is he claiming racism? and why are people like obama jumping on the bandwagon (i expected it from al sharpton but not him)?

    Does saying this was racist, when it obviously was not, just make a mockery of the fight agaisnt racism and perhaps even set it back?
    The real racist in all this is Mr. Gates. He was the one being race conscious. The police were doing their duty. He automatically jumped to a racial conclusion. He automatically decided that any scrutiny had as a absolute given be racially motivated.

    I have said it many times, do not trust what the media puts out. In every case where I have been intimately knowledgable of a news story facts (either because it was a neighborhood event or related to my line of work) there are incredible mistakes in every news article. There is a reason that news is not consider solid history.

    For the ramifications of this, since our President appears to have put his foot in his mouth, you can read through this:

    Obama stirs racial passions in Harvard case

    By Jason Szep
    BOSTON (Reuters) - President Barack Obama plunged his presidency into a charged racial debate and set off a firestorm in one of America's most liberal bastions by siding with a black Harvard scholar who accuses police of racism.

    Saying he was unaware of "all the facts" but that police in Cambridge, Massachusetts, "acted stupidly" in their arrest of Henry Louis Gates, Obama whipped up emotions on both sides of an issue that threatens to open old wounds in America.

    His comments marked his biggest foray into the hot-button issue of race since taking office in January, and underline how racial issues remain very much alive despite advances embodied by his election as the first black U.S. president.

    "Unfortunately, the racial divide is still there. It's still very raw. I think he was trying to let the majority of non-minority Americans have a sense of what it is like to a black or Latino," said Boston University professor of politics Thomas Whalen.

    But many in Massachusetts said he crossed a line by passing judgment on police while acknowledging he did not have all the facts. Online polls in Massachusetts show strong support for the white arresting officer. A police union and his department's chief also came out strongly in his defense.

    "Based on what I have seen and heard from the other officers, he maintained a professional decorum during the course of the entire situation and conducted himself in a professional manner," Cambridge Police Department Commissioner Robert Haas told a news conference.

    Obama's comment stunned the city's policemen, Haas added. "They were very much deflated." He said he has appointed a panel to review Gates' arrest.

    Others questioned whether Obama should have so strongly backed Gates, a friend, over the police without knowing fully what took place.
    [Snip]
    http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...56M5NM20090723

    I've also said this. Anyone who thinks they understand the workings of another country by simply reading their newspapers and watching their movies is seriously deluding themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    This a damn shame, and the whole thing is going to be no more than a typical "he said/he said" dogfight where people will choose to believe one side or the other.

    Are the cops lying each other up to cover for a gross mistake?

    Did the Prof. come over the smart-arse with the cops and get himself righteously booked?

    Was the Prof. right to be angry that cops walked straight into his own house without so much as knocking at the door?

    I have to confess that I would not be best pleased at cops wandering into my house, whether or not some idiot neighbour had called the cops. I'd also hope my neighbours would recognise me breaking in, so maybe there's a lesson there as well.

    Great fuel for both sides of the debate. If you have a lead suit and bulletproof vest, check out some of the racist sites for a good laugh. (Assuming you have strong stomachs)
    I don't think so. Their was a substantial part of the neighborhood that were witnesses. As far as I can tell, the cops have been substantiated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Bean View Post
    I couldn't agree more, I have only ever been stopped twice by the police, once in London and again in Paris. On both occasions I co-operated fully with their questions. As far as I'm concerned, they are the thin blue line between a diminishing order and total anarchy.
    Quite right Brian. The officers at the home were of mixed race:

    Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest

    CAMBRIDGE, Mass. – A black police officer who was at Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s home when the black Harvard scholar was arrested says he fully supports how his white fellow officer handled the situation.

    Sgt. Leon Lashley says Gates was probably tired and surprised when Sgt. James Crowley demanded identification from him as officers investigated a report of a burglary. Lashley says Gates' reaction to Crowley was "a little bit stranger than it should have been."

    Asked if Gates should have been arrested, Lashley said supported Crowley "100 percent."

    Gates has said he was the victim of racial profiling.

    President Barack Obama says the officers "acted stupidly." Lashley called Obama's remark "unfortunate" and said he should be allowed to take it back.

    THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

    CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — A multiracial group of police officers on Friday stood with the white officer who arrested a prominent black Harvard scholar and asked President Barack Obama and Gov. Deval Patrick to apologize for comments the union leaders called insulting.
    [Snip]
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/...Fja29mZmljZXI-
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

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  10. #10
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    I don't think so. Their was a substantial part of the neighborhood that were witnesses. As far as I can tell, the cops have been substantiated.
    How is that possible given that the main interaction occurred inside the house?

    Were other people within earshot of what was said?
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    The real racist in all this is Mr. Gates. He was the one being race conscious. The police were doing their duty. He automatically jumped to a racial conclusion. He automatically decided that any scrutiny had as a absolute given be racially motivated.
    I completely agree with you on that and have often thought that sometimes racism is in the eyes of the beholder as it were.

    As to the neighbour being 'an idiot', atheist, i only wish my neighbours were so civically minded enough to care if someone were breaking into my home. I would probably thank them even if it was all a mistake and would certainly have seen the funny side of the situation. I wouldnt have let the situation get to the stage where i am being arrested.

    And on a lighter note, could i claim they only did it because my great-great-grandfather was jewish thus making me a minority?

    The sooner we all just treat people like people and stop trying to sort everyone by race, religion, etc then maybe we will stop seeing these kinds of problems.
    What is a ghost?
    A tragedy condemned to repeat itself time and again?
    A moment of pain perhaps.
    Something dead which still seems to be alive.
    An emotion suspended in time.
    Like a blurred photograph.
    Like an insect trapped in amber.
    A ghost.
    That's what I am.

  12. #12
    Non Compos Mentis Anza's Avatar
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    The bottom line does not have to do with the particular incident.
    As soon as people cry "racism," a bit more common sense is lost to a gaping black hole which has appeared in modern society. I'm not saying we're past hate crimes, and extreme levels of racism, but racial tolerance is gaining much ground.
    And let's face it-- everyone's a little bit racist. No one has gone a lifetime without muttering under their breath a racist comment about someone. "D*** *insert nationality* cut me off." People are biased against people who are different from themselves. Even fans of different teams are made into enemies, or thought of as inferior.
    It's a complex we all have, that we ourselves are superior to everyone else.
    Regardless, extreme racism is becoming rare. Police don't arrest people just for being black. White drivers don't just get in fender-benders with Asians.
    And one person is not ever indicative of an entire race.
    Furthermore, a majority of people are aware of that, and so screaming racism is obsolete.
    If it's worth complaining about, it's completely worth doing yourself!

  13. #13
    Caddy smells like trees caddy_caddy's Avatar
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    I've also said this. Anyone who thinks they understand the workings of another country by simply reading their newspapers and watching their movies is seriously deluding themselves
    have said it many times, do not trust what the media puts out.
    Thx VIRGIL
    But why to lie on ourselves , RACISM existed in the history of all nations and still existing in a variable degree. Marwa Alsharbini is a clear case .Crying racism should NOT be an occasion to open wounds but to seek solutions that protect human diginity all over the world.

  14. #14
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    How is that possible given that the main interaction occurred inside the house?

    Were other people within earshot of what was said?
    The dispute was taken outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by caddy_caddy View Post
    Thx VIRGIL
    But why to lie on ourselves , RACISM existed in the history of all nations and still existing in a variable degree. Marwa Alsharbini is a clear case .Crying racism should NOT be an occasion to open wounds but to seek solutions that protect human diginity all over the world.
    Anyone looking at American racial discussions from outside the country have this notion that blacks are kept down and racism is rampant. The fact is there is very little real racism any more. Any dispute between people of different races automatically gets blown up into a racial incidence. Yes obviously racism existed and still does in people's hearts. But institutionalized racism does not exist and if anything people give African-Americans the benfit of the doubt. This professor who specialized in Black Studies obviously has a chip on his shoulder. His very specialization makes him see racism where there isn't any. Let's be honest and maybe the color of one's skin will truely be insignificant. But it seems to me that the race consciousness comes from people who claim violations at every turn.

    And just to point the absurdity out. We have a black President, we have the most popular media personin the country as black, Opra, we have the most widely sold musician as black, Michael Jackson, we have top paid actors such as Denzel Washington and Balley Berry, we have CEOs and other executives. Claiming institutionalized racism in today's society is a crock.
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  15. #15
    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Now that I am au fait with the circumstances surrounding this incident, I have arrived home to find that Obama's knee jerk reaction has caused him to mollify his original claim of implied racial impropiety on the part of the police involved.

    http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.as...ntid=148766552

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