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Thread: How do you come across or recognize saints today?

  1. #1
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    How do you come across or recognize saints today?

    I am unsure whether saints really do exist today or they are just myths or spun stories in point of fact. I have been a strong supporter of sainthood thinking that saints really do exist, but in due course observing certain of sainthood-phenomena I feel that they wear raiment of sainthood and beneath the garment every saint is a thug. As every one of us is a little bit of a brute and a bit of a saint. Having said so I do not mean they have no saintliness, of course they do as every one of us. But we are impassioned by their halos and auras to deify or apotheosize them in point of fact.

    Today we have too many saints, and behind closed doors or under their saintly guises there are other forms of them. We kind of are mesmerized by what we observe on the outside, their orations, foxy and flashy apparels, very dashing and magnetic personas and the idiosyncratic dispositions that give them an air of distinction and notability in essence. Their seminal facades deceive so many of us.

    I do not oppose the idea that saints do not exist in reality. But the point I want to put forward is whether they really do exist in today’s context. And if they really do exist they are kind of out of society. For they do not choose to make any ostentation and do not advocate their saintliness.

    I oftentimes read in papers that some altruistic out of their open-mindedness, philanthropic temperament keep on giving away completely empting their wallets, and others who keep on fighting for a cause at the expense of their lives.

    Should we not include them in the list of saints even if they are not conventionally deemed saints like Che" Guevara. He was a selfless fighter. I do not see anything unsaintliness in his character. He was a not a spiritualist in the usual conventional sense at all. He did not speak for any creeds, but he lived and died for a cause that depicted great saintly qualities in essnece.

    Today I do not see saints in garments, and if they really are they are not in sainlty garments.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  2. #2
    ignoramus et ignorabimus Mr Endon's Avatar
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    A saint, for me, is someone who gives all and expects nothing in return; I don't believe pure altruism is possible, but the closest someone gets to it the better.

    Also, my concept of sainthood is really quite secular: my 'saints' don't necessarily have to be religious people, but they usually are.

    As for Catholic saints, their idea of what a saint is is ludicrous for me. Case in point: Nuno Álvares Pereira, a Portuguese crusader who dedicated his life to killing 'infidels'. He's now a saint because this woman had an accident in the kitchen, her eye was burnt by olive oil or something, she prayed to him and it went away. This miracle caused the already beatified soldier to become a saint. Preposterous, I say, to call this man a 'saint'.

    Quote Originally Posted by blazeofglory View Post
    Should we not include them in the list of saints even if they are not conventionally deemed saints like Che" Guevara. He was a selfless fighter. I do not see anything unsaintliness in his character. He was a not a spiritualist in the usual conventional sense at all. He did not speak for any creeds, but he lived and died for a cause that depicted great saintly qualities in essnece.
    That Che is/was a saint is very, very, very debatable, and yet you seem to take it for granted. I don't want to insist on this point, as I've no wish to discuss politics, but let it suffice to say, as I've done above, that sainthood is completely incompatible with killing.
    I am still alive then. That may come in useful.
    Molloy

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    dafydd dafydd manton's Avatar
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    Saint - an interesting word invented by the churches. In essence it is a mistranslation of "Holy One", which is anyone that has gone to heaven. The churches will include such people as John The Baptist, but since he died before Jesus, who is reported as being the first to go to heaven, the churches seem to be shade off track. The "Saints" themselves never thought of themselves in that light, but just as ordinary people doing their best, but getting it wrong now and again.
    Dafydd Manton, A Legend In His Own Lunchtime!! www.dafydd-manton.co.uk

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    Original Poster Buh4Bee's Avatar
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    I believe there are religious leaders who travel the world preaching their message or one like this connected to a higher power and specific religion. These sorts of folks cannot be devoid of playing the political game and in doing so can be detracted from the focal point of their mission. We the congrats can become very disenchanted with such exhibitions of leadership.

    I don't know much about saints, besides Mother Theresa. I do know that a saint defined by the church is supposed to be doing God's (universal sense of god). This work is done not for their own benefit, but for the benefit of the greater common good. We can question a person's motivation to be altruistic and it may not always be for selfless gain. Hopefully those that embody the saint do, act accordingly.

  5. #5
    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Saints are those who live in a way that brings light and love to those around them.

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    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Endon View Post
    That Che is/was a saint is very, very, very debatable, and yet you seem to take it for granted. I don't want to insist on this point, as I've no wish to discuss politics, but let it suffice to say, as I've done above, that sainthood is completely incompatible with killing.
    Not just debatable, he was an outright murderer. He was no saint. He's burning in hell right now.
    LET THERE BE LIGHT

    "Love follows knowledge." – St. Catherine of Siena

    My literature blog: http://ashesfromburntroses.blogspot.com/

  7. #7
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Not just debatable, he was an outright murderer. He was no saint. He's burning in hell right now.
    Dear Virgil What he has been charged against by some arr out of the prejudices only. He was a saint indeed, and the few who are against this title of sainthood is out of the preconceived opinion against him. Read the following:

    Some view Che Guevara as a hero;[138] for example, Nelson Mandela referred to him as "an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom" while Jean-Paul Sartre described him as "not only an intellectual but also the most complete human being of our age."[139] The anarcho-capitalist and Libertarian theorist Murray Rothbard even extolled Guevara as a "heroic figure", lamenting after his death that "more than any man of our epoch or even of our century, (Che) was the living embodiment of the principle of revolution."[140] Guevara remains a beloved national hero to many in Cuba, where his image adorns the $3 Cuban Peso and school children begin each morning by pledging "We will be like Che."[141] In his native homeland of Argentina, where high schools bear his name,[142] numerous Che museums dot the country, which in 2008 unveiled a 12 foot bronze statue of him in his birth city of Rosario.[143] Additionally, Guevara has been sanctified by some Bolivian campesinos[144] as "Saint Ernesto", to whom they pray for assistance.[145]

    I can give so many examples of his ratings as a saint. Let us not mask ourselves and read the Motor Cycle Diary.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  8. #8
    ignoramus et ignorabimus Mr Endon's Avatar
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    Since you won't continue to quote the text, shall I?

    [...] to whom they pray for assistance.[145]
    Conversely, others view him as a spokesman for a failed ideology and as a ruthless executioner. Detractors have theorized that in much of Latin America, Che-inspired revolutions had the practical result of reinforcing brutal militarism and internecine conflict for many years.[146] Guevara remains a hated figure amongst many in the Cuban exile community, who view him with animosity as "the butcher of La Cabaña."Guevara's exiled grandson Canek Sánchez Guevara, has also recently become an outspoken critic of the current Cuban regime.[148]
    It's so easy to make any given point using selective quotation.
    I am still alive then. That may come in useful.
    Molloy

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    One definition of a saint might be someone who is in 'heaven' (whatever that might mean to an individual), but it can be anyone at all who is eternally present with God.

    A saint can be a mench; someone who most likely lived the life of a sinner, but at some point in their lives turned around and began to live only to do good, who breathed to become an answer to someone's prayer, who gave tirelessly and when it was seen that a thing was needed doing, stepped up to the plate and did it, but as a human was given to his/her humanness. This can be anyone.

    Another might refer to a canonized saint which is a religious-political label bestowed following a set process in order to commemorate the good that was done at a persons hands and to provide role models. This type of saint also most likely lived a sin-filled life until there was some turning around point.

    Some refer to a living person as a saint, someone like Mother Teresa (now Blessed Teresa of Calcutta) when she was living would have been and was referred ...then the question can be who is in the same category of Blessed Teresa of Calcutta? There are many. People who work endlessly to better the lives of others, people who do not seek recognition, who do not seek gain, and many will never be known.

    Yes, BlazeofGlory, I think there are many who should have the title and can be said to have it, even if there is no feast day on the calendar, their life can still be celebrated as a saint. Unfortunately, as you point out they live in anyonymity so their names are not known to a vast majority. Still, I supposed it can be hoped that those who do know these individuals appreciate them and privately venerate them, at least.

    ~L
    I'd rather have questions that I can't answer than answers that I can't question.

  10. #10
    spiritus ubi vult spirat weltanschauung's Avatar
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    who cares what a saint is? its a word, a title given by a church. churches are made of men, and men are equally nothing.joan of arc is also a saint and ironically was burnt at the stake as a witch. obviously the catholic authorities are holding the supreme definition for this word, so who cares what it is. this dictionary isnt important at all.
    i have a better question for you, and far more relevant than this useless blabber:
    what have you done today that improved what you were yesterday?

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    I'm not sure that Catholics have cornered the market on the word Saint. At the risk of repeating myself, a saint can be anyone at all, whether or not they have a date on the calendar and a certifiate of glory in the vatican.

    Each day we are given the opportunity to better the world around us, and I'd like to think there were some ways that I did that today; I used a cotton tote for groceries I bought, I talked to my youngest son about the music he's learning, I worked, I spent some time sorting through donated items for back-to-school back packs, I said "I love you," to my sixteen year-old daughter in response to her "I love you" without there being any exchange of funds or car keys. Now, anyone with a 16 year old daughter should know that this just about qualifies me for Pope!

    ~L
    I'd rather have questions that I can't answer than answers that I can't question.

  12. #12
    Moon Goddess crystalmoonshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Endon View Post
    As for Catholic saints, their idea of what a saint is is ludicrous for me.
    While reading about the Spanish Inquisition, I found out a lot about the anomalies of the catholic church. Aren't Christians forbidden to kill? Didn't Jesus taught us to love one another? How come murderers and persecutors are turned into saints? There's this one inquisitor named Pedro Arbues who, after being assassinated, was proclaimed a saint. An inquisitor! Let's not forget St. Augustine, though being a great defender of the church, expressed his agreement that heretics should be put to death.
    Vanitas vanitatum, dixit Ecclesiastes, vanitas vanitatum, et omnia vanitas.

    Yo sé quién soy, y sé que puedo ser no sólo los que he dicho. - Don Quixote

  13. #13
    MANICHAEAN MANICHAEAN's Avatar
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    For the sake of clarity, lets leave religious denomination out of it for a moment, as I can only contribute to this discussion from my own experiences. As you know, (or as you should know), there is an expession in Scriptures that states; "Take care, lest you find yourself in the company of angels".
    With my wife in Nigeria back in the 70s, I used to visit an orphanage in Jos, Plateau State, run by an Irish nun, Sister Geraldina, who, with the aid of about 10 indiginous assistants ran this establishment. The first time there we were offered a tour where we saw the stark rejects of African childhood. Kids left in dustbins, the abandoned offspring of prostitutes, kids malformed, their wrists restrained to stop them from harming themselves, flies around their mouths, bellies distended, in fever from malaria. I came through nearly in tears, for the reality of seeing such children, as opposed to an Oxfam poster beggers the transition of comprehension. And yet, and yet, this one woman was not overwhelmed, but cheerful and saw in these small bodies the face of Christ in his wretched disguise. Was she a saint? To me she was. Was she canonised? No. But she left an impression on all who knew her for the humanity she lived.
    Sequel to this story. We adopted one of the orphan girls. She is now a social worker in London dealing with small kids from problem families & the pride of my life.
    "Whosoever accepth a child in My Name, accepth not Me, but The Father who sent Me".

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    Yes, Manichaean, these are our saints today.

    The word can be changed to a more secular one, but more people will understand the word saint.

    Folks in New Orleans, LA who talk about saints may well be talking about football players.

    ~L
    I'd rather have questions that I can't answer than answers that I can't question.

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