As we know all major religions have their sacred texts and scriptures, or something they recite, would that religion be able to work without it, or in this case any religion. Ofcorse not forgetting the historic importance of writings of important events taking place.
Are the historic annotations really important for the a religion to work out.
I am not able to make my point out clearly but I hope you know what I mean.
Religion is a Western concept. "Religions" as we call them have been known to function without realizing they were religions, including something like Hinduism (which was defined by colonialists, not practitioners). In that sense, a single scripture is not particularly important. The Ancient Greeks didn't have a defined scripture after all.
What you do need though, is a series of beliefs that are shared - they can be written or unwritten, and can waver from place to place, but there needs to be a bit of geographic glue. Of course, most of the world is written-based, rather than the traditional oral-based, in terms of the way things are organized. So as of today, it isn't really possible - as of even 200 years ago (for the West), yes it was
Last edited by JBI; 05-12-2009 at 05:03 PM.
Religion is a Western concept....?
Please elaborate on that one, I though religion has been there ever since the beginning of the human civilization as we’ve recorded, the Indus valley civilizations the firsts ones.
Last edited by La Amistad; 05-12-2009 at 05:34 PM.
Dear La Amistad
I am confused with JBI's idea that religion is a Western concept. Maybe one can speak of a believe system. Furthermore I am not clear what you mean with "historical annotations." Are you working from the premise that religious texts mainly consists out of data portrayed as historical?
Something I find interesting is how essence is almost always communicated in believe systems through some or other story or symbol.
The rock art of the Khoi and San peoples of South Africa, are in essence religious. Most of it, attempt to communicate something of the world in which these peoples lived, through different eyes. There might be reality as can be experienced objectively and then there is an understanding of reality which is coloured by a believe system. The believe system helps a person to orientate him-/herself within reality.
I think that written religious texts also function along these lines. Maybe it can be seen as part of the collective mind of humanity (and not only a claim to interact with the divine).
For some reason religious texts seem to have had priority from a very early age in human existence. Texts like the Sumerian Gilgamesh epic, the Babylonian Enuma Elish, the King Keret (Kirtu) story from the Ugaritic clay tablets, and many others, are essentially religious texts... although they are woven in history and legend.
Today some people feel that science is orientating us in reality, therefore making a believe system redundant. I just wonder if religion is not also a way of expressing how we understand our deepest selves, (not only an orientation towards God).
Regards
Elimelek
Yeah that did clear things a little, but I’m still blur to the actual question.
so....
Religion = nothing without some sort of scripture or writing?
Ofcorse, a belief or a believe system does not require any evidence or any holy scriptures. It’s just a belief, and that’s the beauty of it. What about a religion. Is there not a distinction between the two?
Last edited by La Amistad; 05-12-2009 at 05:53 PM.
A series of beliefs is not a religion. If someone, for instance, thought there was a being in the sky that made it rain, we wouldn't call them a member of a religion, per say, we would merely accept that as how they understand the world. From what I know of, for instance, classical Chinese society, philosophy and religion were not distinguished - the sense of a set of beliefs, practices and rituals that associate around one group as being a "religion" is a Western concept, in the sense that it organizes things into headings in order to put labels on them, and ends up putting everything that fits under one category - the name of the religion. The word Hindu, for instance, from what I remember from reading, was first found in a Persian text, if I recall correctly, a little over 1000 years ago, and pertaining to the people who live around the Sindhu (Indus) river, in modern day Pakistan. The belief system, unlike Christianity, for instance, which formed itself into a written belief system, in other words, a Religion, the Hindu beliefs, that is, the beliefs we now associate with the "religion" Hinduism, were not written down in stone, and there was no authoritative version or ruling on the issues, or authoritative decision making body, or even an authoritative scriptural Canon that was agreed and made uniform. The varying beliefs between regions and times attests to a system that doesn't define easily in Western "Religious" categorization, as quite simply, that is just a western way of understanding it.
Likewise, I would describe the Ancient Greek tradition - before the introduction of writing - as something quite similar to that - a set of oral traditions to explain the world, and maintain a way of life, without an authoritative textual body (that is, until things sort of manifested themselves into distinct forms - though the transition is still apparent when you look at the variance in accounts, a direct result from the transition period). Hellenistic, and Roman, as well as Jewish belief (especially after the writing down of the Talmud and Mishna, as well as much of the oral tradition) eventually manifested themselves as written religions, which recognized themselves as a religion, rather than just explanations. Christianity comes from this line, with its self consciousness, and its reliance for its standardization as a text-based religion (though, due to a still strong oral vein, particularly amongst illiterate peoples, regional oral traditions, such as saints and myths manifested themselves, the best examples being St. Denis, with his talking head, or Saint George with his dragon slaying, and also elements of the big theological debates, which are in many ways the marking of a transition, one similar to the transition that happened in both Ancient Judea - culminating in the writing of the Talmud and Mishnah, and also in Ancient Athens, surrounding people like Socrates, who later would be made written in Plato's form.
From that perspective, the textualization of a religion forces a spacial binding - either you are a part of what the text represents and means (of course, with minor deviation in interpretation) or you aren't. Either you are part of the religion, or you aren't.
Comparing things with Islam though (and I confess, I am no expert on Islam, unfortunately) we see interesting things. The Koran is recited, correct? But it is written down, and law and interpretation are written down as well. Scholarship takes the form of writing, and the writings bind Muslims over space.
That's really what I mean. Perhaps it is true then, that scripture forms the religion, and I didn't think the question through well enough. After all, without the scripture, you don't have the spacial binding - the authorative version of everything - and as a result, things fall apart.
But I think the concept of religion still, is hard to project onto anything. The way, for instance, a Confucian may have seen, or sees them self may be read like a religious belief by Western definitions, but the thing that really makes it so similar, is simply the binding of the system over space, because of the 4 Great Classics. Is it a religion though? I don't think so. Lao Zu didn't write any Gods into his Tao Te Ching, but Taoists may believe in Gods, and those too vary by region - simply because the exact definition was not bound by text - it moved orally.
In that sense,
All I know much about are the Vedas in Hinduism. The Vedas were written down by rishis, seers or sages. They are important but not all there is. The main focus of Hinduism is to understand reality. Who are we? What is the self? What is real? The Vedas are sort of authority but there's also worship, practice, meditation, association, work, as well as the guru - all of these are also important. There are different types of yogas, which are methods of realizing the self in different manners. Jnana yoga is by knowledge, Raja is by meditation, Bhakti is by devotion. Each of these has the same goal of realizing the self.
According to Webster...linkOriginally Posted by JBI
re·li·gion
Pronunciation:
\ri-ˈli-jən\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date:
13th century
1 a: the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
Les Miserables,
Volume 1, Fifth Book, Chapter 3
Remember this, my friends: there are no such things as bad plants or bad men. There are only bad cultivators.
Thank you for bolding something that proves me right. notice how it says a personal set or institutionalized system, meaning they are established, and also contain religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. Now, if we recall our grammar, when a list refers to a system or set, and names three components, it kind of makes sense that all three are required. The definition also, one must note, uses the phrase "religious attitudes", meaning this definition is pertaining to a structured grouping of various attitudes (using the term religious here, which would imply referring back to the first meaning). In other words, a set of beliefs is not a religion, but a religion must have a systemic or specific set of beliefs, that pertain to a concept we have of the religious as make sense.
And, just for the record - don't ever use Webster's Dictionary:
From the OED
religion (_________). Forms: 3*4 religiun(e, 4*5 -ioun(e, 5*6 -yon(e, -ione, 7 relligion; 3*6 relygyon, 4 -un, -ioun, 5*6 -ion; 4 riligioun, 6 relegioune; 3* religion.
[a. AF. religiun (11th c.), F. religion, or ad. L. religion-em, of doubtful etymology, by Cicero connected with relegere to read over again, but by later authors with religare to bind, religate (see Lewis and Short, s.v.); the latter view has usually been favoured by modern writers in explaining the force of the word by its supposed etymological meaning.]
1. a. A state of life bound by monastic vows; the condition of one who is a member of a religious order, esp. in the Roman Catholic Church.
c1200 Vices & Virtues 43 Ğo ğe ğese swikele woreld habbeğ forlaten and seruiğ ure drihten on religiun, hie fol_iğ Daniele, ğe hali profiete.
a1300 Cursor M. 23049 şai..went Şaim in to religiun,..For to beserue vr lauerd dright.
1362 Langl. P. Pl. A. ix. 82 Dobet..is Ronnen in-to Religiun..And precheŞ Şe peple seint poules wordes.
1390 Gower Conf. III. 317 In blake clothes thei hem clothe,..And yolde hem to religion.
c1449 Pecock Repr. v. ii. 484 In oon maner religioun is..a binding vp or a bynding a_en of a mannys fre wil with certein ordinauncis,..or with vowis or oothis.
c1500 Lancelot 1300 Non orderis had he of Relegioune.
1528 Roy Rede me (Arb.) 66 Ware thou never in religion? Yes so god helpe me and halydom, A dosen yeres continually.
1586 A. Day Eng. Secretary i. (1625) 126 Forsweare thou nothing good, but building of Monasteries and entring into Religion.
1663 H. Cogan tr. Pinto’s Trav. xxviii. 111 Those of the country [China] repute him for a Saint, because he ended his dayes in Religion.
1765 H. Walpole Otranto iv, My father..was retired into religion in the Kingdom of Naples.
1825 Southey in Q. Rev. XXXII. 364 We must enter into religion and be made nuns by will or by force.
1886 H. N. Oxenham Mem. R. de Lisle 6 The two others..are in religion; the former entered the Order of the Good Shepherd in 1863.
transf.
1535 Lyndesay Satyre 3673 Mariage, be my opinioun, It is better Religioun, As to be freir or Nun.
† b. man, etc. of religion, one bound by monastic vows or in holy orders. Obs.
c1200 Trin. Coll. Hom. 49 şis loc ne haueğ non to offren bute Şese lif-holie men of religiun.
a1300 Cursor M. 29285 Qua smites preist or clerk,..or ani man of religion,..he is cursd.
13.. E.E. Allit. P. B. 7 Renkez of relygioun Şat reden & syngen.
c1380 Wyclif Wks. (1880) 7 _if Şei seyn Şat Şei ben most holy and best men of religion.
1426 Lydg. De Guil. Pilgr. 3192 Somme folkys of relygyon.
1485 Caxton Paris & V. (1868) 12 To become a man of religion.
† c. house, etc. of religion, a religious house, a monastery or nunnery. Obs.
13.. Sir Beues (MS. A) 4613 An hous he made of riligioun, For to singe for sire Beuoun.
1340 Ayenb. 41 Huanne me bernŞ oŞer brekŞ cherches..oŞer hous of relygioun.
?a1400 Arthur 488 In Abbeys of Relygyoun şat were cristien of name.
c1460 Fortescue Abs. & Lim. Mon. xix. (1885) 155 OŞer kynges haue ffounded byshopriches, abbeys, and oŞer howses off relegyon.
c1535 in Speed Hist. Gt. Brit. ix. cxxi. §95 (1611) 773/1 Spoiled in like maner..as the housys of Religion hath bene.
1568 Grafton Chron. II. 144 Many houses of relygion within the Citie..were searched for goodes of aliauntes.
2. a. A particular monastic or religious order or rule; †a religious house. Now rare.
a1225 Ancr. R. 4 Rihten hire & smeğen hire is of euch religiun, & of efrich ordre Şe god, & al Şe strengğe.
c1290 S. Eng. Leg. I. 52/192 Seint Edward cam..To an holi man Şat Şere was nei_ in an oŞur religion.
13.. E.E. Allit. P. B. 1156 His fader forloyne..feched hem wyth strenŞe, & robbed Şe relygioun of relykes alle.
c1400 Rom. Rose 6352 Somtyme am I prioresse,..And go thurgh alle regiouns, Sekyng alle religiouns.
1483 Caxton Gold. Leg. 426/1 Saynt Rygoberte..ordeyned a relygyon of chanounes and clerkes.
1528 Cromwell in Merriman Life & Lett. (1902) I. 322 The exchaunge to be made bitwene your colledge in Oxforde and his religion for Saundforde.
a1548 Hall Chron., Hen. VIII 143 This priest..was receiued into euery Religion with Procession, as though the Legate had been there.
1568 Grafton Chron. II. 194 This Religion of Saint Iohns, was greatly preferred, by the fall and suppression of the Templers.
1631 Weever Anc. Funeral Mon. 114 If any professed in the said Religion were negligently forgotten.
1687 A. Lovell tr. Thevenot’s Trav. i. 12 A Dagger, which the King of Spain sent as a Present to the Religion.
1769 Ann. Reg. 147 Some ships of the religion of Malta.
1858 Faber Foot of Cross (1872) 70 There were several false and counterfeit religions, which had troubled the church about this time.
transf.
1497 Bp. Alcock Mons Perfect. B iij, As hymself for his pryde and enuy was cast out of the holy relygyon of heuen.
† b. collect. People of religion. Obs.
1297 R. Glouc. (Rolls) 2812 şanne Şe religion & holi chirche worŞ ef sone ybro_t al adoun.
1375 Barbour Bruce xx. 162 Till religioune of seir statis, For heill of his saull, gaf he Siluir in-to gret quantite.
c1450 Holland Howlat 190 Alkyn chennonis eik of vther ordouris, All maner of religioun, the less and the mair.
† c. A member of a religious order. Obs.
13.. Cursor M. 22001 (Gött), Quatkin man sum euer it es..Or laued or religiun.
1303 R. Brunne Handl. Synne 7557 Specyaly Şat comandeŞ he.. to bysshopes, and persones, To prestys, an ouŞer relygyons.
c1325 Chron. Eng. 527 in Ritson Metr. Rom. II. 292 That on partie he sende..To thilke that were povre in londe; That other to povre religiouns; The thridde to povre cleregouns.
3. a. Action or conduct indicating a belief in, reverence for, and desire to please, a divine ruling power; the exercise or practice of rites or observances implying this. Also pl., religious rites. Now rare, exc. as implied in 5.
a1225 Ancr. R. 10 Cleane religiun..is iseon & helpen widewen & federlease children & from Şe worlde witen him cleane & unwemmed.
c1250 Kent. Serm. in O.E. Misc. 29 şer were vi. Ydres of stone..wer Şo gius hem wesse for clenesse and for religiun.
a1300 Cursor M. 12676 şis iacob..was o gret religiun, Hali liue he ladd al-wais.
1382 Wyclif Lev. xvi. 31 The holiday forsothe of restyng it is, and _e shulen traueil _oure soules thur_ perpetuel religioun.
1553 Eden Treat. Newe Ind. (Arb.) 27 They eate that fleshe with great religion.
1577 T. Vautrollier Luther on Ep. Gal. 151 They that trust in theyr owne righteousnes, thinke to pacifie the wrath of God by their..voluntarie religion.
1613 Purchas Pilgrimage iii. i. (1614) 232 They vsed yet some Religion in gathering of their Cinamon,..sacrificing before they beganne [etc.].
1667 Milton P.L. i. 372 The Image of a Brute, adorn’d With gay Religions full of Pomp and Gold.
1726 Leoni tr. Alberti’s Archit. II. 21/2 The Ancients used to found the Walls of their Cities with the greatest religion, dedicating them to some God who was to be their guardian.
1788 Gibbon Decl. & F. xlix. V. 89 The public religion of the Catholics was uniformly simple and spiritual.
1900 R. W. Dixon Hist. Ch. Eng. xxxvi. (1902) VI. 5 The religions of the religious orders..were swept away under the condemnation of superstition and abuse.
† b. A religious duty or obligation. Obs.
1537 St. Papers Hen. VIII, I. ii. 557 Thei thoght a religion to kepe secret, betwene God and them, certayn thinges.
1549 Latimer 5th Serm. bef. Edw. VI (Arb.) 135 The dutye betwene man and wyfe, whiche is a holy religyon, but not religiouslye kepte.
4. a. A particular system of faith and worship.
a1300 Cursor M. 18944 In Şat siquar was in Şat tun Men of alkin religioun.
1340 Hampole Pr. Consc. 4522 şe Iewes and cristen men,..Sal Şan..Assent in Crist als a religion.
1560 J. Daus tr. Sleidane’s Comm. 92 b, They neyther allure nor compelle any man unto their Religion.
1594 Hooker Eccl. Pol. iv. xi. §2 The church of Rome, they say,..did almost out of all religions take whatsoever had any fair and gorgeous show.
1625 B. Jonson Staple of N. ii. i, I wonder what religion he is of.
1662 Stillingfl. Orig. Sacræ ii. vi. §15 Whereby we plainly see what clear evidence is given to the truth of that religion which is attested with a power of miracles.
1732 Berkeley Alciphr. iv. §25 The Christian Religion, which pretends to teach men the knowledge and worship of God.
1791 Paine Rights of Man (ed. 4) 79 If they are to judge of each others religion, there is no such thing as a religion that is right.
1849 Macaulay Hist. Eng. vi. II. 65 All religions were the same to him.
1862 Max Müller Chips (1880) I. ix. 186 All important religions have sprung up in the East.
transf.
1849 Longfellow Kavanagh xvi. 78 The memory of that mother had become almost a religion to her.
1872 Liddon Elem. Relig. i. 23 We hear men speak of a religion of art, of a religion of work, of a religion of civilization.
† b. the Religion
[after F.]: the Reformed Religion, Protestantism. Obs.
1577 F. de Lisle’s Legendarie G viij, There was a noise raised that the Admiral had endeuoured to expel the Masse, and to plant the Religion in France.
1601 R. Johnson Kingd. & Commw. 106 They againe are deuided into 13 Cantons, 8 whereof are catholike, the residue of the religion.
1642 Howell For. Trav. (Arb.) 46 They of the Religion, are now Town-lesse and Arme-lesse.
a1674 Clarendon Hist. Reb. xv. §153 Those of the Religion possessed them~selves with many arm’d Men of the Town-House.
c. religion of nature: the worship of Nature in place of a more formal system of religious belief.
1902 W. James Var. Relig. Exper. iv. 91 In that ‘theory of evolution’ which..has within the past twenty-five years swept so rapidly over Europe and America, we see the ground laid for a new sort of religion of Nature, which has entirely displaced Christianity from the thought of a large part of our generation.
1961 D. G. James Matthew Arnold i. 22 The essay itself is given up chiefly to a warm exposition of her religion of nature.
5. a. Recognition on the part of man of some higher unseen power as having control of his destiny, and as being entitled to obedience, reverence, and worship; the general mental and moral attitude resulting from this belief, with reference to its effect upon the individual or the community; personal or general acceptance of this feeling as a standard of spiritual and practical life.
c1535 in Burnet Hist. Ref. (1679) I. Rec. iii. 140 That true Religion is not contained in Apparel,..singing, and such other kind of Ceremonies; but in cleanness of mind [etc.].
1560 J. Daus tr. Sleidane’s Comm. 46 b, Amonges the Suyces encreased dayly contention for Religion.
1597 Hooker Eccl. Pol. v. lxv. §16 The tribe of Reuben..were..accused of backwardness in religion.
1613 Purchas Pilgrimage (1614) 20 True Religion is the right way of reconciling and reuniting man to God.
1651 Hobbes Leviath. i. xii. 52 There are no signes..of Religion, but in Man onely.
1704 Nelson Fest. & Fasts ix. (1739) 587 It keeps a lively Sense of Religion upon our Minds.
1776 Adam Smith W.N. v. ii. (1869) II. 459 So slender a security as the probity and religion of the inferior officers of revenue.
1832 H. Martineau Hill & Valley iii. 45 The best part of religion is to imitate the benevolence of God to man.
1849 Macaulay Hist. Eng. ii. I. 176 About two thousand ministers of religion..were driven from their benefices in one day.
1877 Sparrow Serm. vii. 90 True religion, in its essence and in kind, is the same everywhere.
personified.
1597 Shakes. Lover’s Compl. 250 Religious love put out Religion’s eye.
1607 — Timon iii. ii. 83 Religion grones at it.
c1652 Milton Sonn. to Sir H. Vane, Therfore on thy firme hand religion leanes In peace, & reck’ns thee her eldest son.
1717 Pope Eloïsa 39 There stern Religion quench’d th’ unwilling flame.
1781 Cowper Expost. 492 Religion, if in heavenly truths attired, Needs only to be seen to be admired.
1844 A. B. Welby Poems (1867) 72 ’Tis then that sweet Religion’s holy wing Broods o’er the spirit.
b. to get religion: see get v. 12 d.
† c. Awe, dread. Obs. rare1.
a1642 Bedell Erasmus in Fuller Abel Rediv. (1867) I. 78 He took a general view of most parts of Italy as far as Cumae, where (not without some religion and horror)..he beheld the cave of Sibylla.
6. transf.
† a. Devotion to some principle; strict fidelity or faithfulness; conscientiousness; pious affection or attachment. Obs.
1592 Shakes. Rom. & Jul. i. ii. 93 When the deuout religion of mine eye Maintaines such falshood, then turne teares to fire.
1600 — A.Y.L. iv. i. 201 Ros... Keep your promise. Orl. With no lesse religion, then if thou wert indeed my Rosalind.
1630 B. Jonson New Inn i. i, Out of a religion to my charge, And debt profess’d, I have made a self-decree.
1640 Habington Edw. IV 182 The ancient league observ’d with so much Religion betweene England and the Low Countries.
1691 Wood Ath. Oxon. I. Pref., An old Word is retain’d by an Antiquary with as much Religion as a Relick.
b. In phr. to make (a) religion of or to make (it) religion to, to make a point of, to be scrupulously careful (†not) to do something.
(a)
1599 B. Jonson Cynthia’s Rev. v. ii, Let mortals learn To make religion of offending heaven.
1622 Peacham Compl. Gent. 44 Nor bee so foolish precise as a number are, who make it Religion to speake otherwise then this or that Author.
(b)
1606 Shakes. Ant. & Cl. v. ii. 199 By your command (Which my loue makes Religion to obey) I tell you this.
1869 W. M. Baker New Timothy 199 (Cent.), Its acidity sharpens Mr. Wall’s teeth.., yet, under the circumstances, he makes a religion of eating it.
† 7. The religious sanction or obligation of an oath, etc. Obs.
a1619 M. Fotherby Atheom. i. vi. §2 (1622) 42 Vnder the religion of an Oath.
c1645 Howell Lett. (1650) II. 117 According to the rules and religion of friendship.
a1694 Tillotson Serm. (1742) II. xxii. 65 If the religion of an oath will not oblige men to speak truth, nothing will.
1704 J. Blair in W. S. Perry Hist. Coll. Amer. Col. Ch. (1870) I. 107, I shall under the same religion of an oath acquaint your Lordships with..what I remember.
8. attrib. and Comb., as religion-complex, -dresser, -game, -making, -mender, -monger, -shop; religion-arousing, -infectious, -masked, -raptured adjs.;
† religion man = sense 1 b.
1957 J. S. Huxley Relig. without Revelation (rev. ed.) vii. 174 Potential *religion-arousing objects.
1922 Brit. Jrnl. Psychology Oct. 117 Such complexes clearly exist in the normal mind with perfectly free access to consciousness, e.g. the ‘*religion complex’.
a1640 Day Peregr. Schol. (1881) 72 This new vicker was made out of an olde ffrier that had bene twice turnd at a *Religion-dressers.
1961 J. Wilson Reason & Morals ii. 120 Thus J. R. Lucas..even puts in a good word for the *religion-game.
1706 A. Shields Inq. Ch. Communion (1747) 51 Such as are..*religion-infectious, like to spread and leaven all in communion with such a congregation.
1888 Mrs. H. Ward R. Elsmere xlix, We are in the full stream of *religion-making.
c1430 Lydg. Min. Poems (Percy Soc.) 57 *Religioune men alwey wonnyng in the Court,..It may wele ryme, but it accordith nought.
1633 Ford ’Tis Pity v. iii, Your *religion-masked sorceries.
1824 W. E. Andrews Crit. Rev. Fox’s Bk. Mart. I. 380 The irreligious and blasphemous pretentions of those *religion-menders.
1698 Fryer Acc. E. India & P. 366 The Antiquaries..who have searched more narrowly into this up~start *Religion-Monger.
1718 Entertainer 253 The Fathers [are represented as]..a Parcel of old passive Religion-Mongers.
1796 Southey Lett. fr. Spain 341 The fervid soul of that blest Maid, *Religion-raptur’d.
1811 L. M. Hawkins Countess & Gertrude (1812) II. xxvii. 79 Well may scoffers talk of the *religion-shops of London.
Last edited by JBI; 05-12-2009 at 10:56 PM.
I am all flued up and foggu so forgive me - say what?explain this again please JBI perhaps a little clearer?
Im not seeing the difference, except that I know that the Koran was written down at the time while the Bible wasnt written down until later. Then again Islam also has a strong oral tradition, oh its all written down now and has for at least the last thousand years, but the most generally acceptted book of Hadith wasnt collected and written till something like 400.H
I think...
Also just as a side note next time you use the OED , do you really need to use all the examples? the definition alone should more than suffice.
keep smiling people
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The Koran is written, so when you want to deal with an issue, you turn to the authoritative text - the words of Muhammad, or the generations of scholarship. The Koran, as I understand it, teaches many lessons on how to be, and how to go about - therefore, being written down, in Islam, with a degree of flexibility because of interpretation and later rulings (which too are written), one can turn to a text, as apposed to a memory for the answer. The text, within a frame, codifies what must be done, and how it should be done, as do the rulings, whereas if things were oral in form still (since Muhammad, as I understand it, recited everything, and therefore it was copied), the law would be subject to gradual changes over time and space. Of course, oral components and different interpretations are able, or perhaps were better able in the past, to offer oral components and interpretations, but the authoritative text still sits in the background, creating a solid foundation.I am all flued up and foggu so forgive me - say what?
Im not seeing the difference, except that I know that the Koran was written down at the time while the Bible wasnt written down until later. Then again Islam also has a strong oral tradition, oh its all written down now and has for at least the last thousand years, but the most generally acceptted book of Hadith wasnt collected and written till something like 400.H
I think...
Also just as a side note next time you use the OED , do you really need to use all the examples? the definition alone should more than suffice.
keep smiling people
The great shame is that so many religions have their texts, all of which are there to improve life, but yet so very few of them stick to the basic precepts. Sunni v Shire, Catholic v Protestant, the arguments between various protestant factions, persecution of Quakers, Mennonites, Hugenots, the list goes on and on. Sad, isn't it? Pne comes to the almost inevitable conclusion that the scripture is only important when it is convenient.
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I see yes there is a great stress on the written nature of th quoran, and reading. In fact the first ayah, indeed first word was Read, (suurah 96). one of the significasnt factors in this being that muhammed was illiterate and couldnt read or write.
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I think what's really important is the idea of having the guidance of ethics or the basis for doctrines. As one mentioned before, in primal religions where written words were not yet known, the oral traditions played the same role as the scriptures. The fact that in the old days many believers are illiterate and didn't have access to scriptures also implies that the written text itself is not a determining factor to make a religion works.
Last edited by subterranean; 05-14-2009 at 04:07 PM. Reason: typo, as always
I think religion is a combination of two main elements:
1. belief (theology)
2. Legislation
Belief, is the simple part, if the theology of a religion is simple it does not need to be written. If a belief simply states There is only one Creator, and that no one shares any part anywhere with Him, this does not need to be written, simply because belief should be shared by all levels of a community. The summary of the belief is contained in one chapter of the Quran that does not exceed 4 short verses, known by all muslims, I think so.
As for legislation, it must be written down to be followed. A people who believe a certain belief should follow a very well defined legislation that must be written down without alteration or variance since the very first time it was legislated. It is very detailed, it actually teaches how the lifestyle of those believers should be.Say He is Allah, Odd
Allah The Solid,
Had not delivered
Was not Delivered
And Worthy of Him, was nobody
As for the Quran, surely it is a book of both belief and legislation. It defines what belief a muslim should follow, and show how to follow. As it is a book containing both, then the following orders are included in it to Muhammad.
Firt as Nightshade said, "Read"
and abundantly found "Say" and "Recite"
The Quran was initially recited of course, for the simple reason that it came on a nation that was mainly unlettered. Soon, many of this unlettered nation gathered what was recited upon them and wrote it first during the life of Muhammad.
Personally, as a muslim, I don't know what could have happened to my life, without the Holy Scripture. However, I am sure that unlettered people today are not affected as well as long as it is still recited and as long as they know what the simple belief is.
Where is the voice of Humanity?
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