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Thread: Bibles view on Homosexuality

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    Bibles view on Homosexuality

    Homosexuality—Is the Bible’s View Reasonable?

    ARE you a homosexual? If so, you may feel that you are the object of much unfair discrimination and that you suffer unjustly because of what you consider to be a personal matter—the choice of sex partners. The world at large, in your opinion, may be very narrow in its outlook on homosexuality.

    But there is an old saying that ‘a sword cuts two ways.’ So, one needs to be careful not to be guilty of the same bias that one sees in others. Have you taken time to examine carefully what the Bible has to say on the subject of homosexuality? Or, have you, as it were, cast the Bible aside as unworthy of your consideration?

    You may know that more religious people than ever who claim to represent the Bible are speaking out in favor of homosexuality. For instance, “Father” Henry Fehren says in U.S. Catholic magazine that anti-homosexual views have been “based on misinterpretations of stray Biblical texts written for another age and culture.” Echoing his words is Günther Hintze, a Lutheran Evangelical priest in Augustenborg, Denmark: “The Bible’s view on this matter cannot have any validity for us today.” And Jewish rabbi Philip Horowitz recently said in Cleveland, Ohio: “The modern homosexual would resent the fact that his behavior is considered immoral.”

    But why do these men turn away from the Bible? Notice, again, what they say: the Bible is for “another age,” and is not “modern” or “for us today.” The Bible is considered out-of-date for use in dealing with this problem. But is that the case? Fair-minded persons interested in the truth and in the approval of God are willing to find out.

    It is true that the Bible is a very old book. But that of itself does not disqualify it as a guide on personal moral matters like homosexuality; quite the opposite is the case. The Bible’s very age contributes to its value as a moral guide. Why do we say this?

    Well, for one thing, people are essentially the same now as they have ever been. Regardless of the time period when they lived, men have had the same basic physical and emotional needs. Logically, if the Bible is the Word of God by which men should direct their lives, is it not understandable that it would have a long history? Certainly. Thus the Bible’s age is a factor in its favor and lends weight to what it says on homosexuality.

    THE EFFECTS OF HOMOSEXUALITY

    The Bible is not oblivious to homosexual practices. Such things are specifically referred to several times in the Scriptures. For instance, we read at Romans 1:26, 27, according to The New Testament in Modern English by J. B. Phillips:

    “God therefore handed them over to disgraceful passions. Their women exchanged the normal practices of sexual intercourse for something which is abnormal and unnatural. Similarly the men, turning from natural intercourse with women, were swept into lustful passions for one another.”

    But thereafter, most importantly, it accurately details the effects of homosexuality:

    “Men with men performed these shameful horrors, receiving, of course, in their own personalities the consequences of sexual perversity.”

    Is the Bible’s diagnosis given here actually correct? Homosexuals by their words and actions say Yes. They point to the instability of homosexual “marriages,” of the promiscuity of searching for sex partners and of the dishonesty in trying to hide behind a facade of respectability while secretly carrying on homosexual activity. Not their enemies, but homosexuals themselves speak of the “dread of growing old alone.” The hopelessness of their future, homosexual William Carroll observes, leads to “cynicism, despair and even suicide.” Yes, homosexuals themselves admit that they receive “in their own personalities the consequences” of the homosexual way of life.

    The Bible therefore accurately depicts the results of this practice. But why do these adverse traits appear in “their own personalities”? The apostle Paul says it is because they engage in that which is “abnormal and unnatural.” Advocates of homosexuality say that what makes something “natural” or “unnatural” is purely subjective, and is a matter that must be decided by each person for himself. But is that really the case? Is it not obvious to virtually all persons that male and female are counterparts, opposites sexually? Is it not apparent that their sex organs were designed to “fit” together?

    On the other hand, does it seem “natural” to you for two lesbians to come together sexually? One of the pair must often use some type of artificial substitute for a male organ to satisfy the other. And consider male homosexuals. Both may claim to be men, but must not one assume a female role in some sense? In the case of male and female homosexuals, one way or another, a substitute must be supplied for what the opposite sex supplies “naturally.” How reasonable is that? The Bible correctly refers to the actions of homosexuals as “abnormal and unnatural.”

    The Bible therefore accurately depicts the results of this practice and informs us as to why these results appear. Consistently, would it not thereafter clearly condemn the practice? That would be reasonable.

    So we read at 1*Corinthians 6:9, 10: “Make no mistake: no fornicator or idolater, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion .*.*. will possess the kingdom of God.” (The New English Bible) Or, as the verse is paraphrased in The Living Bible: “Homosexuals—will have no share in his kingdom.”

    Biblically speaking, the matter is quite clear, is it not? The Bible just plainly shows that homosexuality is wrong. The Scriptures are thus consistent, not just showing the bad effects of this practice, but also properly condemning what produces those ill effects.

    But it has become fashionable among homosexuals to argue that primarily the apostle Paul, not Jesus Christ, spoke against homosexuality. How valid is that contention?

    JESUS AND HOMOSEXUALITY

    Well, to start with, those who so argue ignore the fact that the Bible refers to the words of Paul as part of ‘Scripture’ and thus beneficial for “setting things straight.” (2*Tim. 3:15-17; 2*Pet. 3:15,*16) But an honest examination of the words of Jesus shows that he, too, did indeed speak against homosexuality.

    He said, as recorded at Matthew 19:9 according to the Revised Standard Version (RSV): “Whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.” The Greek word for “unchastity” that Matthew here employs in penning Jesus’ words is por·nei´a. Por·nei´a is related to the verb por·neu´o, meaning “to give one’s self to unlawful sexual intercourse.”

    The best way to understand what is taken in by these terms is to find out how they are used in other places. A similar word appears in the Bible at Jude*7 in describing the sin of certain ancient cities: “Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally [an intensive form of por·neu´o] and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” (RSV) For what type of ‘immorality’ or por·nei´a were those at Sodom and Gomorrah condemned? The Bible narrative at Genesis 19:4, 5 answers:

    “The men of Sodom, surrounded the house, from boy to old man, all the people in one mob. And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: ‘Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intercourse with them.’”

    These men of Sodom and Gomorrah were homosexuals. In fact, the English word “sodomy,” which particularly means ‘intercourse between two men,’ is drawn from the name of the city of Sodom. The Bible would call their sin por·nei´a. Jesus said por·nei´a was so wrong morally that it was a basis for severing the marriage bond.

    Further, remember that Jesus was a Jew living under the law of Moses. His use of por·nei´a, says Edward Robinson’s Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament, apparently includes ‘all intercourse interdicted by the Mosaic Law.’ That Law included among its injunctions: “Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence.” (Lev. 18:22, The Torah, The Five Books of Moses, by the Jewish Publication Society of America) Por·nei´a, the word used by Jesus, obviously embraced this command of God.

    Also, it should be noted that homosexuality had been condemned by God before the law of Moses was even given. The account about Sodom and Gomorrah, referred to earlier, proves this fact; those cities were destroyed by God over 400 years before the law of Moses came into existence. Jesus was aware of that.—Luke 17:28, 29, 32.

    Beyond doubt, therefore, Jesus did in fact condemn all such ‘unchaste’ practices as homosexuality. As reason would indicate to us, the Bible is consistent on this matter. Paul’s words are backed up by the authority of the Son of God.

  2. #2
    Johnny One Shot Basil's Avatar
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    What is the Bible's position on hermaphrodites? Could you clear that one up for me as well?
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    Eccentric Rodent Dyrwen's Avatar
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    First off, seems like this isn't all your text, seeing as some of it has been reproduced word for word here. So if you're quoting an article, cite it, don't say it's yours. If that page belongs to you, then good, if not, well that's your problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by elliotfsl
    But there is an old saying that ‘a sword cuts two ways.’ So, one needs to be careful not to be guilty of the same bias that one sees in others. Have you taken time to examine carefully what the Bible has to say on the subject of homosexuality? Or, have you, as it were, cast the Bible aside as unworthy of your consideration?
    I do love when folks care to argue that some people just haven't examined the Bible thoroughly enough to be able to believe in it. It isn't like every homosexual is an atheist and casts the Bible aside. Some people have thoroughly looked into what the Bible has to say on homosexuality, hence all the discussion around the topic these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by elliotfsl
    But why do these men turn away from the Bible? Notice, again, what they say: the Bible is for “another age,” and is not “modern” or “for us today.” The Bible is considered out-of-date for use in dealing with this problem. But is that the case? Fair-minded persons interested in the truth and in the approval of God are willing to find out.
    Turn away from the Bible? They're reinterpretting it. Just like you are. If you wanted to follow it literally, then start stoning all the atheists, adulterers and homosexuals, but if you're willing to argue against doing that, then you've reinterpretted it again. It's a book of literature, so it's always going to be interpretted different ways.

    I'll give you the fact that people looking to seek the approval of God on the subject will continue to look into the ideas involved, but that doesn't mean that some people won't just notice that the book is in fact out of date in terms of practices. When you don't sacrifice lambs at the altar, yet still go to church every sunday, one has to realize that some "modern tuning" of the religion is going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by elliotfsl
    It is true that the Bible is a very old book. But that of itself does not disqualify it as a guide on personal moral matters like homosexuality; quite the opposite is the case. The Bible’s very age contributes to its value as a moral guide. Why do we say this?

    Well, for one thing, people are essentially the same now as they have ever been. Regardless of the time period when they lived, men have had the same basic physical and emotional needs. Logically, if the Bible is the Word of God by which men should direct their lives, is it not understandable that it would have a long history? Certainly. Thus the Bible’s age is a factor in its favor and lends weight to what it says on homosexuality.
    The same now? It's been translated thousands of times, by hand, and many of the originals were lost over time. It isn't the same as it ever was. The Bible's age means about as much as any old book and by your own idea of age being meaningful, I could leave a Star Wars book in the ground and in 2,000 years call it useful accurate religion. If you want to live by the "Word of God" (even if it was transcribed by men, around people whom were illiterate and didn't know any better) then go ahead, but you might want to stop interpretting it and start following it.

    Quote Originally Posted by elliotfsl
    Is the Bible’s diagnosis given here actually correct? Homosexuals by their words and actions say Yes. They point to the instability of homosexual “marriages,” of the promiscuity of searching for sex partners and of the dishonesty in trying to hide behind a facade of respectability while secretly carrying on homosexual activity. Not their enemies, but homosexuals themselves speak of the “dread of growing old alone.” The hopelessness of their future, homosexual William Carroll observes, leads to “cynicism, despair and even suicide.” Yes, homosexuals themselves admit that they receive “in their own personalities the consequences” of the homosexual way of life.
    Oh come on now. "The instability of homosexual 'marriages'"? Christian, straight, marriage divorce rates average at 24% and even higher at 30% for Jewish couples. In the US alone the divorce rate is somewhere around 60% last time I checked and the majority of the US population is Christian and straight. Homosexuals are only carrying out "secret homosexual activity" because of the overwhelming discrimination against them in today's age. Luckily it's been getting lessened as of late, so that some can at least be open about who they are. It isn't like gays weren't around in the Roman times. There's plenty of research alone about the genetic traits of homosexuality being passed on through parents. And to your final statement there, everyone has a fear of dying alone. It isn't like they become gay because they can't find a straight partner, they're not attracted to the opposite sex, so they find people of the same sex whom are attracted to them and vice versa. It's quite the strawman to try to insinuate that homosexuals have chosen their "way of life" for some magical reasoning of fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by elliotfsl
    The Bible therefore accurately depicts the results of this practice. But why do these adverse traits appear in “their own personalities”? The apostle Paul says it is because they engage in that which is “abnormal and unnatural.” Advocates of homosexuality say that what makes something “natural” or “unnatural” is purely subjective, and is a matter that must be decided by each person for himself. But is that really the case? Is it not obvious to virtually all persons that male and female are counterparts, opposites sexually? Is it not apparent that their sex organs were designed to “fit” together?
    Designed to "fit" together doesn't mean that it is purely natural. There's gay animals all over the world and they find it quite natural to try and fit together. Men happen to "fit" because they've got a hole to stick themselves into, which is all that thing was designed to do. It gives pleasure, not reproduction, but that doesn't make it any less natural.

    Quote Originally Posted by elliotfsl
    On the other hand, does it seem “natural” to you for two lesbians to come together sexually? One of the pair must often use some type of artificial substitute for a male organ to satisfy the other. And consider male homosexuals. Both may claim to be men, but must not one assume a female role in some sense? In the case of male and female homosexuals, one way or another, a substitute must be supplied for what the opposite sex supplies “naturally.” How reasonable is that? The Bible correctly refers to the actions of homosexuals as “abnormal and unnatural.”
    You apparently don't know anything about lesbians or the female body. A woman can please another without a penis, or even a dildo. It's called a clitoris and it only takes a nimble tongue or a talented finger. Your claim that some male couples have a female-like partner is only right in some cases, a lot of the time they act exactly the same or hey, how about this, just like normal couples of people that are good friends. They've just got benefits to their relationship and merely because some happen to act more male or more female doesn't make their love for another any less natural, but good try, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by elliotfsl
    Biblically speaking, the matter is quite clear, is it not? The Bible just plainly shows that homosexuality is wrong. The Scriptures are thus consistent, not just showing the bad effects of this practice, but also properly condemning what produces those ill effects.

    But it has become fashionable among homosexuals to argue that primarily the apostle Paul, not Jesus Christ, spoke against homosexuality. How valid is that contention?
    Just because the Bible says its wrong, doesn't mean it is. Though I suppose if you're going to adhere to the Bible, you've got me there. To your phrase about Jesus, one is supposed to follow Him to get to Heaven, not the Bible, as some are told. But then again, that's up for interpretation, now isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by elliotfsl
    Beyond doubt, therefore, Jesus did in fact condemn all such ‘unchaste’ practices as homosexuality. As reason would indicate to us, the Bible is consistent on this matter. Paul’s words are backed up by the authority of the Son of God.
    Whatever you say, just don't go into public office with that on your mind for the lawbooks.
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    Why do we argue over what we believe and dont believe in we all agree on differneces we just cant accept them i am aginst homosexuality and i voice my opinion but i don not shoot people down who have it
    you cannot control your feelings i think we all know that we are homos bc we have done evilly wrong and god has punished us horribly and that is that

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    Agree with Dyr's point there about "it's all about one's interpretation". When I was in college, I know this guy who is a gay and he's a Christian as well. He told me that once when he was still a teenage, he went to church and the priest who gave the sermon, was preaching about homosexuality...that God is against the homesexuals and the Bible is strongly stated God's stand on this issue (the punishment of Sodom and Gommorah, is one of the examples). Then he told this matter to his family, who are all Christians as well, but totally supported him for his sexual prefference. His father said "that priest can say anything he likes. He doesn't have any right to judge other people and he doesn't own heaven or hell. Long as you trust on Jesus and do good towards others, then it never matter whether you're gay or not.".

    Same goes with the issue of celibacy I think. Paul once stated that being married is good but not getting married according to him is better. (I think more or less thats what he said). So I think that's only Paul's personal intepretation cause God himself never stated that.
    Last edited by subterranean; 03-29-2005 at 08:14 PM.

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    The Yodfather Stanislaw's Avatar
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    I tink the issue that is being adressed in the Bible, is the lustfull nature of Homosexual (don't thinkI can say it here, age limits and all) uhm, bedchameber business. The business between a man and a woman is for that of producing children, however that of the homosexual variety is just to fullfill a lustfull desire, it can't possibly lead to children. So Homosexuals, along with heterosexuals, who engage in leasure, uhm, bedroom business are both considered to be breaking a holy sacrament.


    However, if these are not your own words, don't plagerise then eh?

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    The Yodfather Stanislaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil
    What is the Bible's position on hermaphrodites? Could you clear that one up for me as well?


    real mature bradly.

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    Stanislaw Lem
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    "Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible"

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    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Oh the humanity...
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    dancing before the storms baddad's Avatar
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    Okay, I'll admit it. I'm confused. The bible suddenly becoming the final word on homosexuality?? Is there anything that most fabled book cannot do???

    Sexual persuasion/preference is dominated by brain development. Not religious doctorine.

    While some people may decide to try 'same-sex' sex as an exploration of sexual fantasy, a little harmless exploration of self, homosexuals make no such choices. And of course, all segments of a society have people who are promiscious, and this is not limited to homosexuals. And this is neither startling, or new. It happens today, it was happening in biblical times. I think the lord may have destroyed a city or two over some such thing..........

    But back to the biology of brain development:

    People with homosexaul tendencies don't suddenly wake up one day and decide that it would be fun to live a life that invites descrimination, prejudice, taunting, ridicule, persecution, threats, deadly virus's, incredible amounts of stress and social outcasting. Females don't go to great efforts to accentuate attributes that are more commn to men. Men don't go to great efforts to accentuate attributes that are more more common to women. Some people of both genders have opposite attributes as a matter of course from birth , just as a matter of the great differences amongst us all.

    Those with a proclivity toward their own gender are completely normal, in the sense the they were born with the tendency towards sexual attraction to either males, or females, regardless of their own gender.

    This is not a crime under any curcumstances, and certainly not a crime against nature as is proposed here, for nature made these people who they are. They are as 'natural' as anyone else.

    The reality of homosexuality is scientificly solid, much moreso than that legendary 'Virgin birth"....

    People in glass houses........

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    The Yodfather Stanislaw's Avatar
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    *cough* *cough*

    I am not stating that the Bibal is the determining factor on homosexuality, I am merely stating what is infact housed in the Bibal, sex for the sake of sex is not an encouraged thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baddad
    And of course, all segments of a society have people who are promiscious, and this is not limited to homosexuals. And this is neither startling, or new. It happens today, it was happening in biblical times.
    Well I think that is what I said when I stated that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    So Homosexuals, along with heterosexuals, who engage in leasure, uhm, bedroom business are both considered to be breaking a holy sacrament.
    People with homosexaul tendencies don't suddenly wake up one day and decide that it would be fun to live a life that invites descrimination, prejudice, taunting, ridicule, persecution, threats, deadly virus's, incredible amounts of stress and social outcasting.
    That in itself is a very narrow minded statement, Homosexual people are not actively discriminated against in this fashion, to my knowledge they are the only group wich demands to celebrate a pride day. Also much of the prejudice is directed to those who flaunt there sexuality infront of others. ie, those who dress pornographically on pride days, those who make out at bustops, airports etc. Personally I am prejudice towards anyone who flaunts there sexuality, I could really care less what you and your partner do in the bedroom.

    Those with a proclivity toward their own gender are completely normal, in the sense the they were born with the tendency towards sexual attraction to either males, or females, regardless of their own gender.
    well scientifically speaking, some cases are due to hormonal imbalances, not all Homosexuals are naturally homosexual by nature.

    The reality of homosexuality is scientificly solid, much moreso than that legendary 'Virgin birth"....
    As in scientific terms none could produce an offspring???

    Also this is one area of strong belief within the christian world (now apparently very much seperate from the "real" world) which is solely based on faith and belief of a holy text.

    People in glass houses........
    heh, I'll give you that one: Judge not lest ye be judged. This is just a flashbang topic anyways, ment to get a rise out of people, looks like we didn't let em down now?




    Another forgotten point is that though Homosexuality, like promiscuity, is condemmed in the Bibal Jesus Christ taught us not to judge, and to love our neighbour, so though we may not personally engage in these activities, we musn't judge, because each of us if far from perfect.


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    "Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible"

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    dancing before the storms baddad's Avatar
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    ...cute little icon there Stan. Love his peace sign sign!

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    The Yodfather Stanislaw's Avatar
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    'twas the least I could do, besides, nothing would come of the debate, just arguing.

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    "Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible"

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    Fresh, Fair and Innocent Adelheid's Avatar
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    The Bible should be the basis for our lives. (For christians and those who believe in it at least.) Since it is the Word of God, and all His commands and warnings are lovingly written in it, we should take care before doing something that God warns us about. That includes homosexuality and other sins.
    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Romans 10:9-11


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    Memories of Nuremburg... Miss Darcy's Avatar
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    Oh dear...Christianity makes me want to laugh and cry at the same time.

    Firstly, let's get this straight (no pun intended) - homosexuality makes me squirm. I don't like it. I think it's pretty horrific. But then again, gays...can't really help being gay. They are either born that way or reared in an environment that makes them so. For example, take Tchaikovsky. Brilliant man. A genius. Pure music. And? He went to an all-boys' school that had a lot of homosexuals and became one himself. He was extremely guilty about it - he didn't want to. But it happened. He did his very best to suppress it. He even married a woman to try to change - unhappily, she was mentally unstable and he felt a sort of repugnance towards her. He called her "the serpent". So poor old Tchaikovsky. And the same goes for Oscar Wilde - a brilliant mind, literary genius. And he got imprisoned for being gay. Do you think it was his fault?!

    Now that is a *lot* longer than I had intended. It's not the kind of subject I enjoy writing about. But I felt I had to defend the poor guys, at least for the sake of the two genii I talked about.

    *Shakes head at herself* No more, now, no more.

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    Eccentric Rodent Dyrwen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislaw
    So Homosexuals, along with heterosexuals, who engage in leasure, uhm, bedroom business are both considered to be breaking a holy sacrament.
    If the issue of promiscuity was a higher priority than homosexuality then I guess people would make a point of it, though I feel your mentioning of that idea in the Bible is pertinent, since if one is to follow the Bible's word on homosexuality, one also has to follow its word on heterosexuality. If one isn't trying to have a child, then one shouldn't be having sex, so sayeth the Lord, if I do say so myself, heh.

    Personally I'm all for promiscuity in terms of getting out there and finding people you like, so long as you aren't willfully cheating on folks in the process, though to force gays to be celibate merely for the fact that they cannot produce children is a bit much. What if they manage to get a test tube baby or adopt? Heh, aren't they entitled to some degree of pleasure from their lover while they father/mother their child?

    Also, although Basil may have appeared smart-assed, I'd say that it is a pertinent question, since they have both sexual organs (hermaphrodites, that is) and therefore will be one or the other, or just bi, depending (as I understand it) so how would their actions be justified in any case?
    To think is to blog is to distract is to stop is to destroy is to die is to think therefore I am not good enough

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