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Thread: God and Love

  1. #1
    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    God and Love

    Well after time spent searching and studying and living, etc., I now find myself actually saying and thinking certain things which are the same as what blazeofglory has said for so long.

    God is above illusion. A harmonious relationship with God is necessary for a peaceful, successful life. But I am not speaking about Dogma. God is above all illusions. God is above the different religions. Not any one religion has a license on truth, yet all religions teach a perspective of truth.

    God is the infinite. We exist in the infinite but we are not aware of it, from our conditioning, and conditioned we are conditioned never to see out of our boxes of reality. It is like Einstein's free-falling elevator. We do not know if we are in a free-falling elevator, or just a box orbiting the earth. We cannot see outside or beyond our horizons. And yet it is possible to see beyond, because the light which we think is beyond our horizons is the source of our being, and we can access it within our own heart. In this way every one of us can become enlightened, we can speak dharma, we can become supremely enlightened and turn the very wheel of dharma ourself.

    Why are we part of God? Why are we part of the infinite? Because life is an illusion of separateness, it is an illusion of feeling empty. We aren't separate from God - we're not separate from reality. We are part of reality ourselves. In this way we are qualitatively the same as God - not quantitatively but qualitiatively. All things in the universe are interconnected. Being complete and whole ourselves - a unity - we are omnipotent in our own environment. Being enlightened as an organism, we can experience the infinite within our very immediate physical environment. We can experience the wholeness of God within our heart. We can experience the infinite of reality within our heart, because we are not separate from reailty.

    There is no one answer. This is exactly my point. There is not one religion, one view, which is true, while the others are false. My own view is there is One God, which is the source of everything else which exists. If we can fade our wayward desires, which mess up our qi, if we can live and purify our hearts and minds, then we can refine the energy of our qi, make it more subtle. Then if we can live in harmony with God, we can inherit what is in our nature. If we can live in harmony with God, then we will come closer to God, with more understanding. Then we can understand the real, as opposed to the unreal, and our karmic obstructions disappear. We stop the cycle of birth and death, and we realize wisdom and compassion.

    As I said in my knowledge there is One God, and infinitely far away from Him, there we are. It seems we are separated from a chasm. But we experience states of consciousness such as a meditative state - states of absorption. And again, it seems we are separated from those states. It seems they we are seeing "there" from "here." But actually "there" is always "here," what we are seeing as "there" is the source from which we came. It can be, and is, with us always. Every one of us has an inner law of light or love which can be our guide. We can understand the unity within the multiplicity. In this way we can completely transcend the physical and temporal (samsara) barriers and impressions. In this way we can experience the infinite ocean of God.

  2. #2
    Something's Gone hoope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post

    There is no one answer. This is exactly my point. There is not one religion, one view, which is true, while the others are false. My own view is there is One God, which is the source of everything else which exists. If we can fade our wayward desires, which mess up our qi, if we can live and purify our hearts and minds, then we can refine the energy of our qi, make it more subtle. Then if we can live in harmony with God, we can inherit what is in our nature. If we can live in harmony with God, then we will come closer to God, with more understanding. Then we can understand the real, as opposed to the unreal, and our karmic obstructions disappear. We stop the cycle of birth and death, and we realize wisdom and compassion.
    Oh Nikolai.. Blazeofglory has a big effect on the site.. i wonder where is he these days

    Anyway, Lets say that you are right there is more than one God & that there is more than one right religion.
    Lets imagine how the world would be if there is more than one God.. One God would like to let the sun rise from the east ; the other wants it from the west. One God wants its to be night now .. the other say " NO ! I want it day "
    There will be a big mess on the whole world.. Look around you & you will find that there are evidence on the Exitence of ONE GOD.. ( One Sun , One moon ..) how the earth is organised , how human being is created so perfectly so..PERFECT..
    Nothing is like coincidence on earth.. nothing is like we came into being out of no where..
    God is one ! He has no Children & He has not been Created.. And There is only ONE GOD TO WORSHIP.

    Do you believe in the life hereafter? Do you believe in the presence of hell or of heaven ?

    then you can get an answer to that logically.. "Living in harmony with God "
    "He is asleep. Though his mettle was sorely tried,
    He lived, and when he lost his angel, died.
    It happened calmly, on its own,
    The way the night comes when day is done."



  3. #3
    rat in a strange garret Whifflingpin's Avatar
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    "Anyway, Lets say that you are right there is more than one God & that there is more than one right religion."

    NikolaiI certainly did not say that there was more than one God and more than one right religion. He said "My own view is there is One God." And he said "There is not one religion, one view, which is true," So, one true God & no true religions.

    "Lets imagine how the world would be if there is more than one God.. One God would like to let the sun rise from the east ; the other wants it from the west. One God wants its to be night now .. the other say " NO ! I want it day "
    There will be a big mess on the whole world.. Look around you & you will find that there are evidence on the Exitence of ONE GOD.. ( One Sun , One moon ..) how the earth is organised , how human being is created so perfectly so..PERFECT.."

    But there is "a big mess on the whole world" and human beings are far from perfect, so, by your argument alone there is evidence for at least two Gods.
    Voices mysterious far and near,
    Sound of the wind and sound of the sea,
    Are calling and whispering in my ear,
    Whifflingpin! Why stayest thou here?

  4. #4
    Something's Gone hoope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whifflingpin View Post

    But there is "a big mess on the whole world" and human beings are far from perfect, so, by your argument alone there is evidence for at least two Gods.

    Whateva you say Whifflingpin.. hope this will be able to please you .. this i got from the HOLY QURAN...

    ONENESS OF GOD


    Muslims believe in one God, Allah. None has the right to be worshiped but Allah; there is no partner unto Him. He has power over everything. Islam is based on this concept which Allah has expressed in The Qur'an:

    He is Allah, besides whom there is no other God, the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. Allah is the Most Benficent, the Most Merciful. He is Allah, the King, the Holy, the One, Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Guardian, the All-Mighty, the Compeller, the Supreme. Exalted be Allah from all that they associate as partner with Him. He is Allah, the Creator, the Originator of all things, the Bestower of forms. His are the most Gracious Names. All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty and the Wise One. [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 59:22-24]



    Blessed be He in Whose hand is the sovereignty, and He has power over all things. Who has created life and death, that He may test you which of you is best in conduct; and He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving. [Chapter 67:1-2]


    There is no god but He. It is He Who gives life and causes death, your Lord and the Lord of your forefathers. No, but they (unbelievers) divert themselves with doubts. [Chapter 44:8-9]


    Allah; there is no god but Allah, the Ever Living, the Eternal One. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. He is the Most Exalted, the Most Great. [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 2:255]


    To Him belongs all what is in the heavens and the earth. And those (angels) who are near Him do not disdain to worship Him, nor they ever weary of His service. They glorify Him night and day, tirelessly never intermit. Have they (people) chosen earthly gods who (they think) can restore the dead (to life)? If there had been either in the heavens or the earth other gods than Allah, both (heaven and earth) would have been ruined. So glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, far above what they attribute to Him. He cannot be questioned as to what He does, but they shall be questioned.

    Have they chosen other gods besides Him? Say: “Bring forth your proof. This is the Message (the Quran) of those with me, and the Message (the previous Scriptures) of those before me.” But, most of them do not know the truth, and so they turn away. And We did not send any Messenger before you without inspiration to him: “There is no god but I; so worship Me (alone).” And yet they say, “The Compassionate God has begotten offspring.” Exalted is He! No, those (whom they so designate) are only His honoured servants. They do not speak before He speaks, and they only perform His commands. He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot intercede for none, except for those whom He approves, and they tremble in awe of Him. And if any of them declares: “I am a god beside Him,” We shall requite such a one with Hell. Thus do We requite the wrongdoers. [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 21:19-29]
    "He is asleep. Though his mettle was sorely tried,
    He lived, and when he lost his angel, died.
    It happened calmly, on its own,
    The way the night comes when day is done."



  5. #5
    Registered User Wintermute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    God is the infinite. We exist in the infinite but we are not aware of it, from our conditioning, and conditioned we are conditioned never to see out of our boxes of reality. It is like Einstein's free-falling elevator. We do not know if we are in a free-falling elevator, or just a box orbiting the earth.
    Hi NikolaiI,

    But apparently some of us are blessed with being able to see what others can not. You for example. . .

    The only thing I'm fairly confident about is that no earth-bound human has a clue what is really going on in the universe. But that makes it fun 8-).

    Peace,
    Doug
    “The air was soft, the stars so fine, the promise of every cobbled alley so great that I thought I was in a dream.” -Jack Kerouac

  6. #6
    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoope
    Anyway, Lets say that you are right there is more than one God & that there is more than one right religion.
    Lets imagine how the world would be if there is more than one God.. One God would like to let the sun rise from the east ; the other wants it from the west. One God wants its to be night now .. the other say " NO ! I want it day "
    There will be a big mess on the whole world.. Look around you & you will find that there are evidence on the Exitence of ONE GOD.. ( One Sun , One moon ..) how the earth is organised , how human being is created so perfectly so..PERFECT..
    Nothing is like coincidence on earth.. nothing is like we came into being out of no where..
    God is one ! He has no Children & He has not been Created.. And There is only ONE GOD TO WORSHIP.
    I am not sure if you read my post, Hoope.


    I said there was One God more than once in my post.


    I don't know why you are implying I said something else, I can only assume it is a language difficulty.

  7. #7
    Jai Keshava NikolaiI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermute View Post
    Hi NikolaiI,

    But apparently some of us are blessed with being able to see what others can not. You for example. . .

    The only thing I'm fairly confident about is that no earth-bound human has a clue what is really going on in the universe. But that makes it fun 8-).

    Peace,
    Doug
    Hi Doug,

    My view is a bit esoteric I know. A member who's been inactive around the forums a bit lately, islandclimber, described it as well as I can. "Everything is nothing, and nothing is everything," he said. He said he saw everything to be one, singular, infinite possibility. In his view and in mine as far as I agree with him, the construct of time is an illusion. In the infinite, yet singular, possibility which is everything, time does not exist, and all the past, the present and the future, are all connected in one single possibility. I may not be doing his
    words justice, so I give my own perspective and experience.

    The way I've found to escape Eintstein's falling elevator paradox, which might be the same as the horizons effect, is this; to see unity in multiplicity. This is a concept which is found many places in the Vedas. In my understanding, we can know what is beyond the horizon, or know what is beyond our construct, by understanding that our construct is false. It is, entirely, possible to make new growth, new evolution in our consciousness.

    The box which we are in, and which in Einstein's paradox we cannot see beyond, is our own limitations, our own conditioning. Largely, it is our own ego, but it is also our understanding based on our senses.

    What I know, what I can tell you is that I see unity in multiplicity; primarily and foremost in the depictions of the sages. Sages from all times and places have given similar views of what is Truth. They say, in their own words, that we are part of the infinite light of the One. The One is the original source, it is complete knowledge. Everything which is closest to it is completely self-enjoying blissful, and knowledge. Forget this for a moment. Now - consider people searching for truth. Set aside all ideas of truth or ego or form or anything like this; now just, considering the people searching for truth; I can tell you they say the same thing. They say there is a truth beyond words, beyond explanation, and it is a joyful beyond joyful thing. In it one, when realized, sees the light of the transcendent within everything. Sees at every moment, all returning to its source. Sees that nothing can be separate from its source; and in this, sees that all is eternally existing, all is connected, all comes from the light of the source, or the soul. As Alan Watts put it in describing a revelatory experience, "The sure foundation upon which I had sought to stand has turned out to be the center from which I seek." We are seeking God, the infinite, the source, reality - the source of reality - we realize that the search for the source of reality must be the highest search for truth; and in the end, we find that we are not separate from the source of reality. How can reality ever be separated from its source? In other words, how can we die? This is what all sages found, in it we find the transcendence of the illusion of time, as well as those illusions such as ego, form, form grasping, emptiness.

    So when I say that All returns to God, and that God is One, and that God is infinite, and that God is real, while the rest of this is illusion; that is basically what I mean. We don't see God with our eyes, No. Nor do we see the soul. Nor do we see -------------- the center of our being. The soul is the center of our being. God is infinite One, and the source.

    We are not separated from the source of reality - we cannot be, we cannot ever be, except for in ignorance, illusion (samsara). Reality can't be separated from its source, so we have nowhere to go, no "non-existence" to go to, except for the transcendental, infinite Source, from which we came in the first place. In this we realize that these mundane forms are false, while the soul which is in the heart is true.

    In response to your post on another thread, your question - how can God exist when there is suffering? My question for you is how can silence exist when we are in a crowded room? The universe is 99.999999% empty. This is the vastness of the universe. We are intimately connected with the cosmic whole of the universe, because we are the universe, or the Dao, relearning about itself. At first, as children, we learn to place things within categories of form, including ourselves, which separates us from the Dao. Hopefully or ideally, we will be able as we grow into adults, to come to understanding, to see unity within multiplicity, to see that we are reality itself, and each action affects the whole universe like a ripple in a pond, all are connected - and since we are so intimately connected to the cosmic whole, and the source of all; we are also, when we are nothing before us except for this source, completely transcendent of time. In this way we don't see any difference between one lifetime or a thousand - one action or a thousand, and in this way we can become enlightened in our Buddha nature. As for the question of the existence of God (who is the One), what I can say to you is that we are not in a crowded room. We are in an infinitely vast, almost entirely empty universe. The nature of all things, including suffering, is emptiness or self-lessness. We are ourselves the greatness of the cosmos, divine beings, masquerading as ignorant of our unity with the Dao, with the Silence, withe God. As much as actors on a stage; imagining our most superficial cloak to be the whole of our being. Playing these forms and pretending ignorance of our fluid, infinite nature.

    To quote Jack Kerouac, "And you have been forever, and will be forever, and all the worrisome smashings of your foot on innocent cupboard doors it was only the Void pretending to be a man pretending not to know the Void--"
    Last edited by NikolaiI; 02-28-2009 at 12:47 AM.

  8. #8
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    God and love are one and the same thing.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

  9. #9
    Something's Gone hoope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    I am not sure if you read my post, Hoope.


    I said there was One God more than once in my post.


    I don't know why you are implying I said something else, I can only assume it is a language difficulty.
    yea ur right .. u said that.. Sorry i dnt know what i was thinking..
    maybe i was trying to emphasis it ... though i read the whole thing
    Forgive me ..
    "He is asleep. Though his mettle was sorely tried,
    He lived, and when he lost his angel, died.
    It happened calmly, on its own,
    The way the night comes when day is done."



  10. #10
    rat in a strange garret Whifflingpin's Avatar
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    Whiff: "But there is "a big mess on the whole world" and human beings are far from perfect, so, by your argument alone there is evidence for at least two Gods. "

    Hoope: "Whateva you say Whifflingpin.. hope this will be able to please you .. this i got from the HOLY QURAN..."

    Thank you, but no. I do not find it convincing.
    Voices mysterious far and near,
    Sound of the wind and sound of the sea,
    Are calling and whispering in my ear,
    Whifflingpin! Why stayest thou here?

  11. #11
    Moon Goddess crystalmoonshin's Avatar
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    If there's a big mess on the whole world, it's all because of stupid human beings like you and me who do not care at all and whose self always comes first no matter what. Though someone has said that if there are multiple gods, chaos would surely ensue, it doesn't follow that there must be two gods since the present world's chaotic.

    I beg to differ. It all boils down to how we abuse the free will given to us. We've taken too much liberty believing we are the gods of this planet. But no, we are sons and daughters of the Great One, and He is God. (Though I still don't understand why people are egoistic and egocentric.)
    Vanitas vanitatum, dixit Ecclesiastes, vanitas vanitatum, et omnia vanitas.

    Yo sé quién soy, y sé que puedo ser no sólo los que he dicho. - Don Quixote

  12. #12
    rat in a strange garret Whifflingpin's Avatar
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    "Though someone has said that if there are multiple gods, chaos would surely ensue, it doesn't follow that there must be two gods since the present world's chaotic."

    Logically that is correct. However, I think the original argument was that that perfection of the universe proved that there was one god. The fact that the universe is not perfect negates that argument, and allows, at least, the possibliity of multiple gods. As you say, the imperfections of the universe may be accounted for, or explained away, in other ways. The most commonly used explanations in this forum seem to be "The universe is perfect, but we can't see it" and "the universe is not perfect, and it's all our fault."

    Believing in one or multiple gods is just a personal choice, and either choice is equally supported by the evidence, as is the possibility that there are no gods.

    "But no, we are sons and daughters of the Great One, and He is God. (Though I still don't understand why people are egoistic and egocentric.)"

    Indeed, there is an apparent contradiction. Even given free will, it might be expected that the sons and daughters of a God-who-is-Love would choose altruism rather that egoism. An open minded person would. at least, consider the possibility that the God-who-is-Love might not provide the whole explanation for the state we are in.
    Voices mysterious far and near,
    Sound of the wind and sound of the sea,
    Are calling and whispering in my ear,
    Whifflingpin! Why stayest thou here?

  13. #13
    Don't worry, Be Happy
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI
    They say there is a truth beyond words, beyond explanation, and it is a joyful beyond joyful thing. In it one, when realized, sees the light of the transcendent within everything. Sees at every moment, all returning to its source. Sees that nothing can be separate from its source; and in this, sees that all is eternally existing, all is connected, all comes from the light of the source, or the soul. As Alan Watts put it in describing a revelatory experience, "The sure foundation upon which I had sought to stand has turned out to be the center from which I seek.
    Today, many amongst us prod the path complaining and doubting, and seeing suffering/treachery/selfishness and such things all around. These are real problems and we can not sweep them under a carpet. In our daily lives we see job uncertainties, shouting bosses, violence, illnesses, terminal diseases, physical disabilities, distrust among lovers/friends/relatives etc. Such a scenario bogs us down and makes us suspect the presence of a benevolent God.

    One reason for this I like to think it is that we have limited knowledge. A worldly-wise person may have knowledge to be a success in the world, but may not be spritually inclined.

    A frog raised as a tadpole in a well, may see the well as his whole world. The vegetation and the insects and his siblings and water, that is all, that exists for him. He can not imagine that there is a huge living world outside his well.

    Similarly, with us. When somebody dies, that is the end of it or so we think. The person can’t communicate with us, the dead person can not support us, and the person can not harm us. From a living entity the person becomes a body. But how we are, when we are fit and kicking. In Mahabharat one of the main Hindu epic, there is a fascinating Question-Answer session between Yudhistra and Yakha. When Yaksha asks Yudhistra, What is the greatest wonder in the world, Yudhistra replies: Everyday a person sees people dying all around him/her and yet he/she somehow believes that he/she may live for ever. There is something to think deeply here.

    I like to think that God has given us memory for one lifetime only, but we undergo numerous births and deaths. God alone is having a complete dossier on each one of us (our each thought, word and deed for all our births), in addition to everything that exists in the Universe. And based on our karmas the benevolent God is guiding all of us towards Him through this drama of our daily lives.

    As pointed in your post, NikolaiI, I too live with a belief that a pure joy whose intensity we can not even imagine awaits all of us. This blissful state has been described as indescribable which seems to mean it is much, much beyond than being madly in love state or the highs one get from sex, drugs or liquor. It has been termed as God realization or union with God, or the awakened state, wherein you also have all the knowledge. It may take many lifetimes to get there, for first, we would have to reach a state where we are free of desires and are pure beings without an ego, with only a longing for God.

    When we see things from practical view point, a person does not change much in a single lifetime. So we woud have to go through a vicious circle of many lives and deaths. After we have become losers and winners, men and women, poor and rich, famous and infamous and obscure, and done so repeatedly again and again, then slowly, in our sub-consciousness we will begin to see the impermanence of everything in the world; we will begin to become truly selfless, compassionate and inclined towards God. Then God who was all through you in this drama will guide us towards Him. I like to see God as love and all bliss, along with complete knowledge and complete power. Another way I like to believe that there is a veil about us that shields us from God. Once that veil is removed, we become one with God.
    This is in a nutshell, in plain and simple English are my present beliefs about God and the way towards God.


    Do I now need a big, iron umbrella to save myself from the brickbats of non-believers ?

  14. #14
    Registered User Wintermute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laidbackperson View Post
    It may take many lifetimes to get there, for first, we would have to reach a state where we are free of desires and are pure beings without an ego, with only a longing for God.
    Hi laidbackperson,

    Why? Assuming God is omni-everything, why go through all of this. It already knows the eventual outcome. Why make so many suffer through so much pain and confusion simply to reach a known point. Why not just fast-forward to the point it desires?

    I'm agnostic--uncertain--so I could be wrong. I do understand hope however. Hoping that folks we know who've died are in a gentle paradise is perfectly understandable. I hope. I'm just not certain. Are you?

    Blessings,
    Doug
    “The air was soft, the stars so fine, the promise of every cobbled alley so great that I thought I was in a dream.” -Jack Kerouac

  15. #15
    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    In point of fact God omnipresence, ubiquity is unquestionable and we understand God as an epitome of compassion, love and empathy. We do not align his presence as a mere philosophical proposition or idealization. It is the presence or manifestation of him through love and compassion. We cannot deny the presence or existence of love as long as we are in this world, and the fact that when it comes to a question of love there is sacrificial issues that kind of resonates the presence of both love and God

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

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