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Thread: Satanic Verses

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    A ist der Affe NickAdams's Avatar
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    Satanic Verses

    Taken from wikipedia:

    Satanic Verses is an expression coined by the historian Sir William Muir in reference to a few verses delivered by Muhammad as part of the Qur'an and later retracted.

    Basic narrative

    There are numerous reports on the incident, which differ in the construction and detail of the narrative, but they may be broadly collated to produce a basic account. In its essential form, the story reports that Muhammad longed to convert his kinsmen and neighbors of Mecca to Islam. As he was reciting Sūra an-Najm, considered a revelation by the angel Gabriel, Satan tempted him to utter the following lines after verses 19 and 20 ("Have you considered Allāt and al-'Uzzā / and Manāt, the other third?")
    These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for.
    Allāt, al-'Uzzā and Manāt were three goddesses worshipped by the Meccans. Discerning the meaning of "gharāniq" is difficult as it is a word found only in one place. Commentators wrote that it meant the Numidian cranes, which fly at great heights[citation needed]. The Arabic word does generally mean a "crane" - appearing in the singular as ghirnīq, ghurnūq, ghirnawq and ghurnayq, and the word has cousin forms in other words for birds, including "raven, crow" and "eagle".
    The subtext to this allegation is that Muhammad was backing away from his otherwise uncompromising monotheism by saying that these goddesses were real and their intercession effective. The Meccans were overjoyed to hear this and joined Muhammad in ritual prostration at the end of the sūrah. The Muslim refugees who had fled to Abyssinia heard of the end of persecution and started to return home. Islamic tradition holds that Gabriel chastised Muhammad for adulterating the revelation, at which point [Qur'an 22:52] is revealed to comfort him,
    We have sent no messenger or apostle before you
    with whose recitations Satan did not tamper.
    Yet God abrogates what Satan interpolates;
    then He confirms His revelations,
    for God is all-knowing and all-wise.
    Muhammad took back his words and the persecution by the Meccans resumed. Verses [Qur'an 53:21] were given, in which the goddesses are belittled. The passage in question reads:
    Have you thought of Allāt and al-'Uzzā
    and Manāt, the other third?
    Are there sons for you, and daughters for Him?
    This is certainly an unjust apportioning.
    These are only names which you and your fathers have invented. No authority was sent down by God for them. They only follow conjecture and wish-fulfillment, even though guidance had come to them already from their Lord.
    In early Islam

    The Satanic Verses incident is reported in the tafsir and the sira-maghazi literature dating from the first two centuries of Islam, and is reported in the respective tafsīr corpuses transmitted from almost every Qur'anic commentator of note in the first two centuries of the hijra. It seems to have constituted a standard element in the memory of the early Muslim community about the life of Muhammad. The earliest biography of Muhammad, Ibn Ishaq (761-767) is lost but his collection of traditions survives mainly in two sources: Ibn Hisham (833) and al-Tabari (915). The story appears in al-Tabari, who includes Ibn Ishaq in the chain of transmission, but not in Ibn Hisham. Ibn Sa'd and Al-Waqidi, two other early biographers of Muhammad relate the story. Scholars such as Uri Rubin and Shahab Ahmed and Guillaume hold that the report was in Ibn Ishaq, while Alford T. Welch holds the report has not been presumably present in the Ibn Ishaq.
    Transmission of the narrative
    The tradition of the Satanic Verses never made it into any of the canonical hadith compilations (though see below for possible truncated versions of the incident that did). The temporary control taken by Satan over Muhammad made such traditions unacceptable to the compilers. This is a unique case in which a group of traditions are rejected only after being subject to Qur'anic models, and as a direct result of this adjustment. The reference and exegesis about the Verses appear in early histories. In addition to appearing in Tabarī's Tafsīr, it is used in the tafsīrs of Muqātil, ‘Abdu r-Razzāq and Ibn Kathir as well as the naskh of Abu Ja‘far an-Nahhās, the asbāb collection of Wāhidī and even the late-medieval as-Suyūtī's compilation al-Durr al-Manthūr fil-Tafsīr bil-Mathūr.
    Objections to the incident were raised as early as the fourth Islamic century, such as in the work of an-Nahhās and continued to be raised throughout later generations by scholars such as Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi (d. 1157), Fakhr ad-Din Razi (1220) as well as al-Qurtubi (1285). The most comprehensive argument presented against the factuality of the incident came in Qadi Iyad's ash-Shifa‘.[1] The incident was discounted on two main bases. The first was that the incident contradicted the doctrine of isma‘, divine protection of Muhammad from mistakes. The second was that the descriptions of the chain of transmission extant since that period are not complete and sound (sahih). Ibn Kathir points out in his commentary that the various isnads available to him by which the story was transmitted were almost all mursal, or without a companion of Muhammad in their chain. There exists a complete version of the isnad continuing to ibn ‘Abbās, but this only survives in a few sources. Uri Rubin states that the name of ibn ‘Abbās must have been part of the original isnad, and was removed so that the incident could be deprived of its sahih isnad and discredited.
    Those scholars who acknowledged the historicity of the incident apparently had a different method for the assessment of reports than that which has become standard Islamic methodology. For example, Ibn Taymiyya took the position that since tafsir and sira-maghazi reports were commonly transmitted by incomplete isnads, these reports should not be assessed according to the completeness of the chains but rather on the basis of recurrent transmission of common meaning between reports.
    ‘Urtubī (al-Jāmi' li ahkām al-Qur'ān) dismisses all these variants in favor of the explanation that once Sūra al-Najm was safely revealed the basic events of the incident (or rumors of them) "were now permitted to occur to identify those of his followers who would accept Muhammad's explanation of the blasphemous imposture" (JSS 15, pp. 254-255).
    By the time of Qurtubī (d. 1272), a series of ever more elaborate exculpations had accrued to the basic narrative. These variously claimed that:
    The entire incident is nothing more than a rumor started by Meccans.
    Muhammad uttered the Satanic Verses unaware.
    Satan deceived Muhammad into reciting the verses by delivering them in the guise of the angel Gabriel; this would cast all other revelations from Gabriel in doubt.
    Satan, while invisible, projected his voice so that the verses seemed to emanate from Muhammad.[citation needed]
    Some enemy of Muhammad (either satanic or human) recited the verses in Muhammad's voice to discredit him.

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    Yes Nick

    We are aware of this event, of course. I just wanted to know your comments about it.

    I would rather write my comment after you tell us your impression about knowing this story of these three satanic verses.
    Where is the voice of Humanity?

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    A ist der Affe NickAdams's Avatar
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    I apologize for not putting my goal for this thread in the first post, I will correct that, but I would like to know more about it. I'm not interested with authenticity, I just like collecting small amounts of information before reading a text and since I plan on reading the Quran within the next month or two, I figured I'd get the ball rolling. I am skeptical of wikipedia, so I posted it hear to see what people had to say about, what references they may produce and just different view points.

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    Lady of Smilies Nightshade's Avatar
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    Humm I have never heard of the satanic verses ( other than the Rushdie book which I have yet to get around to reading and as its about number 400 on my list it will be a while I guess before I do get round to it!) , but it is intresting there are a few things Id like to add but I need to double check them first, and I guess Im going to have to digg out a copy of Tafseer al tabiri to look at too... But wiki is really quite far from the most reliable of sources so any other refferance would also be intresting
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    Yeah. I know also about this myth.

    For instance its not surprising that Tabari is one of the most used sources of Muir.

    By the way Nightshade. Good luck with finding an english translation of Tabari. I dont think there is one. There is Ibn Kathir (most used tafseer in the muslim world) in english. But Ibn Kathir and most of the other tafsir doesn`t mention these socalled "satanic" verses which Tabari is mentioning. Tafseer = commentary of the Quran, ergo tafseer is not actually holy scripture.
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    Well, according to what I know, these verses are not verses in Al-Najm chapter, whehter they were before or not.

    In fact the three verses in their place totally reject the idea of polytheism and intercession through "lumps of stone" or any other thing of course.

    whether the event truly occured or not therefore does not truly matter, but if it did then, I would say that this is a good point for Muhammad. There is nothing to hide, and when he wrongly recited them, he had the courage to correct what he had heard.

    Of course Nick you don't have to apologize.

    I wanted to ask you something, relating to the closed thread. I wanted to know what would you expect the word of God to be. I was thinking about that for a while, and I wondered what are you expecting?
    Where is the voice of Humanity?

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    Lady of Smilies Nightshade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saladin View Post
    By the way Nightshade. Good luck with finding an english translation of Tabari. I dont think there is one.
    It's a good thing I can read arabic then isn't it? Also I am fairly certain Ive seen a copy of it Ive just got to rember whose book shelf I saw it on...
    And yes I do realise tafseer are just inturrpritations and ccommentry , which is why I have yet to really get into them, I am planning on buy the complete Sheik Sharawy tafseer and reading them, for lots of reasons but mainly because he used clear simple languge and I reeeeeeeeeeally like the cover.
    I did read something last night though in surrat el imran that made me think about this thread or rather the incedent, or rather it reminded me of the passagages in suurat el baqarrah about the change in quiblah and how things occur in stages.
    Im not explaining this right I guess I need to formulate my ideas better
    Last edited by Nightshade; 01-30-2009 at 12:11 PM.
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    A ist der Affe NickAdams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by planet earth View Post
    I wanted to ask you something, relating to the closed thread. I wanted to know what would you expect the word of God to be. I was thinking about that for a while, and I wondered what are you expecting?
    If I believed in a God, I would figure his "word" would be something that could be understood by anyone. Without the difficulty of interpretation. It would be understood by children, adults, the best minds, the deprived minds, every race and creed. If I believed in a God and wanted to know what his word was I would observe people with different mental handicaps and see what moral concepts they had in common. God's word should be understood by those of the lowest comprehension. God's word should not have to be taught. That's what I think about the matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickAdams View Post
    If I believed in a God, I would figure his "word" would be something that could be understood by anyone. Without the difficulty of interpretation. It would be understood by children, adults, the best minds, the deprived minds, every race and creed. If I believed in a God and wanted to know what his word was I would observe people with different mental handicaps and see what moral concepts they had in common. God's word should be understood by those of the lowest comprehension. God's word should not have to be taught. That's what I think about the matter.
    Great Nick

    Your Reply is wonderful. I think this is the God I worship. I really don't want to go into the trap of preaching so I will not say anything. You will read and judge for yourself
    Where is the voice of Humanity?

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    A ist der Affe NickAdams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by planet earth View Post
    Great Nick

    Your Reply is wonderful. I think this is the God I worship. I really don't want to go into the trap of preaching so I will not say anything. You will read and judge for yourself
    I don't think his word can be found in books, because then God's teachings won't reach the illiterate. It also won't reach tribes dwelling in the depths of the jungle. I will read though. Whether I'm a believer or not, religion is a serious part of peoples lives and I won't be able to understand them without reading these text myself. I'm tired of divisions. I am in search of peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickAdams View Post
    I don't think his word can be found in books, because then God's teachings won't reach the illiterate. It also won't reach tribes dwelling in the depths of the jungle. I will read though. Whether I'm a believer or not, religion is a serious part of peoples lives and I won't be able to understand them without reading these text myself. I'm tired of divisions. I am in search of peace.
    I cannot describe to you how happy I am with your reply and with the way you think. You are one way or another aiding me through.

    I am not sure if you are aware that my beloved prophet Muhammad was illiterate.

    He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them transcend, and to teach them the Scripture and wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest, Quran 62:2

    So the Quran was not read before. It descended upon a forty year old unlettered man, in a tribe, called Quraish. So it reached them. Allah is Justice. He would never punish someone he did not Convey the message to. So He did. It was through recitation then that the Quran was told. The very first followers of Islam were illeterate poor men of the tribe. Some of the rich followed too, but some did not because of arrogance and pride of leaving the lumps of stone they worshipped. Later on those who learned it by heart started writing it so it would not be forgotten.

    Finally we are all tired of divisions, and if you are looking for peace, I would love to tell you that one of Allah's names is The peace, and Heaven is the Mansion of Peace, and His Message was of Peace, and all His message carriers were men of Peace.

    I swear, I am speaking out of my heart and have no intentions other than to tell you what I know and believe.
    Where is the voice of Humanity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by planet earth View Post
    Finally we are all tired of divisions, and if you are looking for peace, I would love to tell you that one of Allah's names is The peace, and Heaven is the Mansion of Peace, and His Message was of Peace, and all His message carriers were men of Peace.
    Why does he hate the Jews so much then?
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickAdams View Post
    Taken from wikipedia:

    Satanic Verses is an expression coined by the historian Sir William Muir in reference to a few verses delivered by Muhammad as part of the Qur'an and later retracted.

    Basic narrative

    There are numerous reports on the incident, which differ in the construction and detail of the narrative, but they may be broadly collated to produce a basic account. In its essential form, the story reports that Muhammad longed to convert his kinsmen and neighbors of Mecca to Islam. As he was reciting Sūra an-Najm, considered a revelation by the angel Gabriel, Satan tempted him to utter the following lines after verses 19 and 20 ("Have you considered Allāt and al-'Uzzā / and Manāt, the other third?")
    These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for.
    Allāt, al-'Uzzā and Manāt were three goddesses worshipped by the Meccans. Discerning the meaning of "gharāniq" is difficult as it is a word found only in one place. Commentators wrote that it meant the Numidian cranes, which fly at great heights[citation needed]. The Arabic word does generally mean a "crane" - appearing in the singular as ghirnīq, ghurnūq, ghirnawq and ghurnayq, and the word has cousin forms in other words for birds, including "raven, crow" and "eagle".
    The subtext to this allegation is that Muhammad was backing away from his otherwise uncompromising monotheism by saying that these goddesses were real and their intercession effective. The Meccans were overjoyed to hear this and joined Muhammad in ritual prostration at the end of the sūrah. The Muslim refugees who had fled to Abyssinia heard of the end of persecution and started to return home. Islamic tradition holds that Gabriel chastised Muhammad for adulterating the revelation, at which point [Qur'an 22:52] is revealed to comfort him,
    We have sent no messenger or apostle before you
    with whose recitations Satan did not tamper.
    Yet God abrogates what Satan interpolates;
    then He confirms His revelations,
    for God is all-knowing and all-wise.
    Muhammad took back his words and the persecution by the Meccans resumed. Verses [Qur'an 53:21] were given, in which the goddesses are belittled. The passage in question reads:
    Have you thought of Allāt and al-'Uzzā
    and Manāt, the other third?
    Are there sons for you, and daughters for Him?
    This is certainly an unjust apportioning.
    These are only names which you and your fathers have invented. No authority was sent down by God for them. They only follow conjecture and wish-fulfillment, even though guidance had come to them already from their Lord.
    In early Islam

    The Satanic Verses incident is reported in the tafsir and the sira-maghazi literature dating from the first two centuries of Islam, and is reported in the respective tafsīr corpuses transmitted from almost every Qur'anic commentator of note in the first two centuries of the hijra. It seems to have constituted a standard element in the memory of the early Muslim community about the life of Muhammad. The earliest biography of Muhammad, Ibn Ishaq (761-767) is lost but his collection of traditions survives mainly in two sources: Ibn Hisham (833) and al-Tabari (915). The story appears in al-Tabari, who includes Ibn Ishaq in the chain of transmission, but not in Ibn Hisham. Ibn Sa'd and Al-Waqidi, two other early biographers of Muhammad relate the story. Scholars such as Uri Rubin and Shahab Ahmed and Guillaume hold that the report was in Ibn Ishaq, while Alford T. Welch holds the report has not been presumably present in the Ibn Ishaq.
    Transmission of the narrative
    The tradition of the Satanic Verses never made it into any of the canonical hadith compilations (though see below for possible truncated versions of the incident that did). The temporary control taken by Satan over Muhammad made such traditions unacceptable to the compilers. This is a unique case in which a group of traditions are rejected only after being subject to Qur'anic models, and as a direct result of this adjustment. The reference and exegesis about the Verses appear in early histories. In addition to appearing in Tabarī's Tafsīr, it is used in the tafsīrs of Muqātil, ‘Abdu r-Razzāq and Ibn Kathir as well as the naskh of Abu Ja‘far an-Nahhās, the asbāb collection of Wāhidī and even the late-medieval as-Suyūtī's compilation al-Durr al-Manthūr fil-Tafsīr bil-Mathūr.
    Objections to the incident were raised as early as the fourth Islamic century, such as in the work of an-Nahhās and continued to be raised throughout later generations by scholars such as Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi (d. 1157), Fakhr ad-Din Razi (1220) as well as al-Qurtubi (1285). The most comprehensive argument presented against the factuality of the incident came in Qadi Iyad's ash-Shifa‘.[1] The incident was discounted on two main bases. The first was that the incident contradicted the doctrine of isma‘, divine protection of Muhammad from mistakes. The second was that the descriptions of the chain of transmission extant since that period are not complete and sound (sahih). Ibn Kathir points out in his commentary that the various isnads available to him by which the story was transmitted were almost all mursal, or without a companion of Muhammad in their chain. There exists a complete version of the isnad continuing to ibn ‘Abbās, but this only survives in a few sources. Uri Rubin states that the name of ibn ‘Abbās must have been part of the original isnad, and was removed so that the incident could be deprived of its sahih isnad and discredited.
    Those scholars who acknowledged the historicity of the incident apparently had a different method for the assessment of reports than that which has become standard Islamic methodology. For example, Ibn Taymiyya took the position that since tafsir and sira-maghazi reports were commonly transmitted by incomplete isnads, these reports should not be assessed according to the completeness of the chains but rather on the basis of recurrent transmission of common meaning between reports.
    ‘Urtubī (al-Jāmi' li ahkām al-Qur'ān) dismisses all these variants in favor of the explanation that once Sūra al-Najm was safely revealed the basic events of the incident (or rumors of them) "were now permitted to occur to identify those of his followers who would accept Muhammad's explanation of the blasphemous imposture" (JSS 15, pp. 254-255).
    By the time of Qurtubī (d. 1272), a series of ever more elaborate exculpations had accrued to the basic narrative. These variously claimed that:
    The entire incident is nothing more than a rumor started by Meccans.
    Muhammad uttered the Satanic Verses unaware.
    Satan deceived Muhammad into reciting the verses by delivering them in the guise of the angel Gabriel; this would cast all other revelations from Gabriel in doubt.
    Satan, while invisible, projected his voice so that the verses seemed to emanate from Muhammad.[citation needed]
    Some enemy of Muhammad (either satanic or human) recited the verses in Muhammad's voice to discredit him.
    this is sheer nonsense concocted by none other than some sects of Muslims, particularly the Shias (Kharijees). Tabari and Kathir are not recognized by sunnis as authentic traditionalists.
    Quran was compiled almost 80 years after the death of holy prophet and that too by Khalif Umar so that Quranic verses and traditions dont get mixed up. In those days many muslims knew quran by heart and so did the Caliphs. Traditions were screened out from the Quranic verses and stress marks were placed on its words for uniform understanding. Quran collected in this way was sent to the rulers of all Muslim empires of that time and this is the reason no one finds any difference in any edition of Quran. It was only disputed by the Shias, who claimed inheritance of prophethood for Ali and his progeny, and here all the trouble in the Muslim world started. The shias accused the Caliphs of destroying some chapters of the holy Quran as well as inducting some chapters of their own. This controversy exists till this day ,,,,and there is no way to sort it out. On top of this the hypocrites also took advantage of the rift between different sects of Islam and invented certain traditions and stories to malign Islam and the holy prophet.

    Even a child of common intelligence will note that a Prophet like ours wouldn't err in terming idols of laat o manaat with reverence when infact he believed in the sunnah of Ibrahim who destroyed idols and spoke of one God!
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    Why does he hate the Jews so much then?
    Who is he?
    Do you mean Allah?
    Allah does not hate anyone. How will he hate those whom He created?
    Allah did not even use the word hate about Himself to someone in the Quran.
    And when the word "hate", Arabic "kariha" he said not he hated them, but hated their deeds.

    There is a huge difference between hating someone and hating the bad doings he does. I love my daughters but I hate their nagging for example. I love my daughters but if they do something wrong I am upset with them. I love my daughters but I will punish them if they do something wrong. My daughters may then think that I hate them, because simply they are not aware I am doing this for their sake, because I really want them to be better.

    Aren't the Jews, children of Israel? Then I would just introduce a few verses containg what He said about them

    And verily we gave the Children of Israel the Scripture and the Command and the Prophethood, and provided them with good things and favoured them above (all) peoples; 45:16

    Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. 2:62

    Verily, it is We who bestowed from on high the Torah, wherein there was guidance and light. On `its strength did the prophets, who had surrendered themselves unto God, deliver judgment unto those who followed the Jewish faith; and so did the [early] men of God and the rabbis, inasmuch as some of God's writ had been entrusted to their care; and they [all] bore witness to its truth. Therefore, [O children of Israel,] hold not men in awe, but stand in awe of Me; and do not barter away My messages for a trifling gain: for they who do not judge in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high are, indeed, deniers of the truth! 5:44

    And who told you that if the Muslims or Christians did deeds that would upset our beloved Creator he would not set punishments upon them. This would never ever mean He hates us.
    Where is the voice of Humanity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by planet earth View Post
    Who is he?
    Do you mean Allah?
    That would be the one, yes, since he gave the instructions on what to write, and it contains these bits:

    O ye who believe! Take not the jews and the Christians for friends.
    Not exactly love thy neighbour, is it?

    Lo! many of the (jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah.
    Jews (and christians) are avaricious.

    Because of the wrongdoing of the jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way,
    Jews are wrongdoers who lead people from Allah.

    and of the jews: listeners for the sake of falsehood,
    Jews eavesdrop and spread lies.

    How many more would you like?

    Quran quotes taken from here.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

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