The Death Fear is lessoned by killing another

[coberst]

The Death Fear is lessoned by killing another

How can we, the “man on the street”, Tom & Jane, gain an insight into the meaning of this dread of death? A dread so strong that we kill to prevent that death and that we are so dedicated to repressing that dread that many things we do is done in that behalf.

I suspect most of us have experienced the feeling we call ‘claustrophobia’. I have experienced that feeling and I am confident that I would do almost anything to stop that experience. I suspect that it was the dread of death that caused the inmates of the Nazi concentration camps to tolerate such terror as daily existence must have been.

I suspect that dread of death is the reason that ‘water-boarding’ is such a popular form of torture. Torture is, I suspect, an effort to induce that same dread that we experience in a claustrophobic episode. I think that we might properly use the metaphor ‘dread of death is claustrophobia’ or perhaps ‘dread of death is water-boarding’.

The ‘curse’ is anything that lies about the creatureliness of wo/man. Any effort to make a lofty spiritual character out of sapiens represents an ‘occultism’, i.e. an ‘occult’ is anything that attempts to make supernatural the creatureliness of humans, which is the constant preoccupation of human society.

Jung and Adler recognized from the beginning that Freud was wrong in his dogmatic insistence regarding wo/man’s innate instincts of sexuality and aggression; however, they also recognized that Freud had correctly diagnosed and emphasized wo/man’s creatureliness.

Freud “reflected the true intuitions of genius, even though the particular intellectual counter-part of that emotion—the sexual theory—proved to be wrong. Man’s body was a “curse of fate”, and culture was built upon repression—not because man was a seeker only of sexuality, of pleasure, of life and expansiveness, as Freud thought, but because man was also primarily an avoider of death.”

Not sexuality, as Freud theorized, but the consciousness of death is the primary repression. Freud recognized the curse early and dedicated his life toward exposing it. However, he missed the correct scientific fact that was the source of the curse; this being the repression upon which society is constructed.

Becker theorizes that Freud’s mistake is reveled in one key idea, which emerged in his later writings. “Death instinct” was introduced by Freud in “Beyond the Pleasure Principle”. This theory was an attempt to patch up his libido theory, which he was very reluctant to reject. The death instinct was “a built in urge toward death as well as toward life”. He theorized that the death instinct was an instinctive urge to die, which was redirected outward into the desire to kill. Wo/man defeats this instinct by killing others.

Psychology has rejected Freud’s death instinct theory for a simpler one. Killing represents a symbolic solution that results from a fusion of animal anxiety with the death fear of the human animal. Rank says “the death fear of the ego is lessoned by the killing, the sacrifice, of the other; through the death of the other, one buys oneself free from the penalty of dying, of being killed.”

Churchill said something to the effect that “there is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at and missed”.

Quotes from “The Denial of Death”; Pulitzer Prize winner for nonfiction by Ernest Becker.

[country doctor]

interesting.

myself? the fear of death has greatly lessoned as i move up in age. oblivion seems not such a daunting place to be when i inevitably get there. i feel no need to kill. i feel the need to live. oblivion all in good time, my friend, all in good time.

[mono]

In terms of death itself, I have to side more with Michel de Montaigne, who proposed, in rough terms, that few individuals fear death in itself, but more fear suffering. Admitting his skepticism of what exists 'on the other side,' so to speak, or what does not exist, he asked how fear plays a role in fearing something beyond our understandings. Epicurus took a similar stance, thousands of years previous to Montaigne; though considered the 'Father of Hedonism,' and basing much of his philosophy off of sensation, pleasure, and displeasure, he wrote that death should not concern the living nor the dead, 'since to the former [death] is not, and the latter are no more.'
In a killed-or-be-killed situation, such as in combat, whether the fear of death seems lessened by killing another seems only temporary; no doubt, in combat, a death would come with suffering, too, and one must wonder, what seems worse - pain or death? The soldier in combat will no doubt realize that, even if s/he wins the battle against an opposing soldier, repercussions will come, and other soldiers will seek revenge, since most combat troops consist of more than one troop.
Personally, I would like to know whether killing an individual purposely or accidentally would have different effects upon the fear of death; the witnessing of the death has a trauma in itself, but an accidental death would likely come with more immediate remorse than a purposeful death, which could come delayed or not at all. Personally, in associative thinking, the individual committing the accidental death will forever carry a personal scar, and his/her conscious will own the curse of empathy, thereby making the fear, perhaps not worse, but more intense.

Yes, Sigmund Freud first thought of 'thanatos' (the death instinct, in opposition to 'eros,' the life instinct) in Beyond the Pleasure Principle, and carried that theory into his later works, most remarkably his darkest work, Civilization and its Discontents. From how Freud initially described thanatos, however, seemed less destruction, and more an innate desire to 'restore things as they once were,' previous to an individual's existence. In cognitive psychology, the feeling that one may leave the world entirely unaffected, unremembered, and 'as they once were' may feel terrifying! Inherently, I think we all have a desire to 'leave something behind,' whether offspring and grandchildren, thereby a legacy, something written, a built house, even some sort of object to restore everyone's memory of the deceased self, hence not so much the fear of death, but more the fear of feeling forgotten after the instinct of thanatos has completed its drive.

[NikolaiI]

I disagree. The only thing people would repress is the fear of a painful death.

[weltanschauung]

The only thing people would repress is the fear of a painful death.

a painful death is surely a dreaded thing by anyone, but the fear of death period is the universal torment. dying is the ultimate horror. because what then? what and how? and where...

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. (woody allen)

[skasian]

Nope. Sometimes a person may kill someone else since they feel their own life being threatened. If another person comes along that threatens that murderer, the feeling returns, learning nothing from it.

[Equality72521]

I disagree. The only thing people would repress is the fear of a painful death.

I agree. Death does not seem bad. I almost see it as a peacful release into....whatever is beyond death. As my religious views are a little skewed, there is no definite existance to what happens after death to me. I have this envisionment that it will be something that keeps me at peace.

However, I think that there is not necessarily a fear of DEATH itself, but a fear of a painful death. I just do not want to imagine what some people go through before death.

As well as a fear of the pain, I think that many people suffer from the fear of what will happen to their family and friends. I think that the loss of the connections with people would cause a great impact of fear in the name of death. Or something similar to that...I think the point is extended across.

[Eugenie]

It all depends upon what you believe from your heart, not your intellectual head, what death actually is. If you believe Darwin and all that well it might be rather a hopeless thing. I don't really, myself believe for a moment that people just think, oh that will be nice, just the nothingness. I honestly don't believe that. Else why do people spend any amount of money to make them selves well if they are sick or think their life is in mortal peril from say, cancer. Or that people spend years upon years studying, learning, travelling, only to say , oh how nice , oblivion. When there is infinitely so much more to know and think and feel.
I think that is a sort of comfort, nothing more.
I believe, if you believe from observing the world, a birth, the miracle of how an eye works and think, "chance and evolution are silly, nonsense" and believe there is a Master Builder who loved us so much He sent his Son into a dying corrupt world, to pay the price of our sin and offer us life forever to do all those things we feel inspired to do that are good and peaceable and gorgeous-well then death is but a portal after a lifetime of slogging it out on this earth. It is finishing the race or the work we are called to do and then moving on.
That is not to say the experience of death is going to be any happier or without fear, for it is something unknown and totally new, a struggling and then a release, something we have no control over. And we like to have control. But the knowing you have walked with Him and done your best and are "going Home' well that is something else.
There is a scripture I read once, where, I cannot remember, and it said " Death where is thy sting?"
So, really it depends upon what you believe really. I don't think you have to wonder if it lessens the fear by watching someone die or killing someone, wow that is sick to me. I believe killing someone would certain sear one's conscience and dull the senses because hate, that is what it would be, an act of hate-hate seems to do that. All roaring and venting and harming and then a certain dullness, something valuable has been diminished.But in the end I don't think it makes dying easier. Look at the coward Hitler, he certainly feared any sort of lingering death or harm to him. I am quite certain he wanted to live to see another sunrise. But he took the quick and easy way out.

[country doctor]

for everything there is a season...a time to be born, a time to die...once you get to a certain age, oblivion isn't going to seem all that bad. i mean a person eventually wears out and that eternal rest (or nothingness) doesn't seem so bad. and, of course, there is the eternal hope...
but back to the first point, i think there gets to a point in everyone's life (granted for most of us, we might never get there before we go.) where the weariness of living gets to a place where we will find death a blessing no matter what is on the other shore.

[The Comedian]

interesting.

myself? the fear of death has greatly lessoned as i move up in age. oblivion seems not such a daunting place to be when i inevitably get there. i feel no need to kill. i feel the need to live. oblivion all in good time, my friend, all in good time.

I feel the exact opposite -- the older I get the more I fear death. I think my fear of death increased because I have so many more people depending on me now: wife, two young daughters. Really, my big associative fear of death is that of letting everyone down, of not being there to help.

I don't know if my fear would be lessened if I killed another human. What about animals? I've killed tons of them -- if we count killing animals, then my fear of death in numbed in some ways and become more acute in others; I'm more aware of death as a part of our life cycle but also that life is fragile, sudden, and sad.

[NikolaiI]

I agree. Death does not seem bad. I almost see it as a peacful release into....whatever is beyond death. As my religious views are a little skewed, there is no definite existance to what happens after death to me. I have this envisionment that it will be something that keeps me at peace.

However, I think that there is not necessarily a fear of DEATH itself, but a fear of a painful death. I just do not want to imagine what some people go through before death.

As well as a fear of the pain, I think that many people suffer from the fear of what will happen to their family and friends. I think that the loss of the connections with people would cause a great impact of fear in the name of death. Or something similar to that...I think the point is extended across.

I agree. Death isn't scary, only if we don't think about it. Thinking about it, it's the one thing we can't know until it happens. From my own experiences I believe that even if in this life we feel we are awakened, or spiritual, no matter what, there is always an infinitely a greater knowledge. At least for 99.99% of humans' lives, actually living in form and ego prevents us from the reality, which is that we are unbounded, by form or ego. We're part of the ocean that is nirvana.

So death is just a passage; when we die we'll see the light of the soul. We'll see that there was never any reason to fear, never any reason to worry or feel pain. And we'll know that no matter how peaceful we were in life, it was not as peaceful as by rights, we should have been, once we would know how peaceful the nirvana, bliss, and light awaiting every living soul is, at the end of earthly life.

I was reading a book by a woman who had spent countless hours with dying people, and talked with and done studies with many many people who had near death experiences, and or who died and came back to life, and her works based on the evidence of their testimony agrees with my experience. The woman I am speaking of is Dr. Ross. The book had four essays, I only read the first two because I think I understod her point by then.

Of course my belief of death is tempered by my religion, by my studies of philosophy, which indicate that perhaps, nirvana, or reality, we may only truly experience after this life - that our nature is cosmic, eternal, divine - that we cannot, cannot ever imagine the true expansiveness of our soul, our soul is actually as infinite and the same nature of the cosmos. Anyway we are separate from that reality, only by our illusion or ignorance; we're not aware, we're dreaming. Dying is waking up to the ocean of dharma, nirvana, reality, and light; coming from the samsara of shadows, illusion, darkness, and forms.

We can get glimpses in transcendence, by feeling what it is like to be a tree, by feeling, realizing the tree is part of us... it's something which is rare... I can only say, I am grateful to have experienced it. And also, be at peace. Because after life, if you can't understand it any other way, is peace.

[coberst]

I think that we must place our common sense reactions on hold when we are trying to learn something about a new domain, for us, of knowledge. If we allow our naive common sense to guide us before we gain some comprehension we will never be able to gain knowledge in a new domain of knowledge.

[country doctor]

I feel the exact opposite -- the older I get the more I fear death. I think my fear of death increased because I have so many more people depending on me now: wife, two young daughters. Really, my big associative fear of death is that of letting everyone down, of not being there to help.

I don't know if my fear would be lessened if I killed another human. What about animals? I've killed tons of them -- if we count killing animals, then my fear of death in numbed in some ways and become more acute in others; I'm more aware of death as a part of our life cycle but also that life is fragile, sudden, and sad.

is that so much a fear of death or a fear that your financial house is on shaky ground. suggestion: a life insurance policy.
but i would add that you are still at an age that life offers so much that you don't want to leave it. read my next post on this thread. i think there comes a time when death is a blessing...you haven't reached that age yet.

btw, i fight against the inevitablity factor everyday with a healthy lifestyle. there's more that i want to see, because i too have kids. and, really it is for them that really drives my will to live.

but i've come to terms with oblivion. no pain. nothing.

[Eugenie]

But you may be very wrong about oblivion , and with it pain and suffering or joy and peace. So you are able to cope then, by telling yourself there is just nothing.?
Nothing. I know people that believe that and it just traumatizes them to think they will never think another thought, feel another thing. So that does not work for everyone with that philosophy probably.

[country doctor]

no. oblivion should give anyone a notion of hesitation before going there. it comes with age for people to become more accepting of that fate. i know that oblivion can still give me a shiver, but that is because i'm not quite ready for it. but i'm getting more accepting as the days, weeks, months and years go past. i'm sure some day i'll be ready. a life cut short is a tragedy. surely the deceased wasn't ready for oblivion.
and, of course, some people can never come to terms with it. see woody allen. he claims that he still wakes up in a cold sweat when thinking about his long term fate.
he works just to keep his mind off these depressing thoughts.