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Thread: The "I Hate Shakespeare" Thread.

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    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    The "I Hate Shakespeare" Thread.

    This has been the cause of many literary arguments, the statement being akin to saying "Death to librarians!", but I'm going to say it, because the subject has threatened to derail another thread.

    I feel that Billy is over-rated, over-blown and anti-Semitic.

    I'll just go and post this thread's link in the other thread while I prepare mmy nuclear-proof shelter for the storm about to descend upon me.

    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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    Registered User Zee.'s Avatar
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    Cur etiam hic es? Redzeppelin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    This has been the cause of many literary arguments, the statement being akin to saying "Death to librarians!", but I'm going to say it, because the subject has threatened to derail another thread.

    I feel that Billy is over-rated, over-blown and anti-Semitic.

    I'll just go and post this thread's link in the other thread while I prepare mmy nuclear-proof shelter for the storm about to descend upon me.

    People who wish to argue over this post are wasting their time. Authors are like food - everybody's got different taste. Why would anyone come along and tell you you're wrong, since you're fully entitled to see Shakespeare in whatever way pleases you? You're not alone in your criticism. A number of noted writers have taken a position similar to you on Shakespeare.
    "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else." - C.S. Lewis

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    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    I won't challenge your sweeping statements, except the antisemitic one - I doubt Shakespeare was anti-Semitic. It has been speculated he never met a Jew in his life, and it can be seen in his plays that Shakespeare never passes judgment on a character. All characters in Shakespeare's mature plays seem to be completely justified within their frame of reference. As such, Shylock is not a villain, merely a character, and a rather minor one at that. We must remember, he doesn't speak too many lines - though all his lines are too the point, and profound - and those which he does speak seem to make him more sympathetic if anything.

    Shakespeare never seems to pass judgment on any of his characters - I think that is why he is so enduring - because he doesn't claim to show truths, only drama, and characters - that is probably the reason why he is still the most enduring of all English writers. No matter what tastes come, no matter what politics come, Shakespeare's detachment from his characters, in terms of morals, put him above almost every dramatist, in the sense that there is no answer, there are no notions of right or wrong, there is merely drama.

    Really, people should read basic Shakespeare scholarship - especially if they intend to make accusations like anti-antisemitism. Besides which, beloved Dostoevsky was a million times the anti-Semite that even most mainstream anti-Semites were. Look at, for instance, the great William Hazlitt's essay on Shylock, to get a sense of the scope of interpretation of Shakespeare's character.
    Last edited by JBI; 01-25-2009 at 11:35 PM.

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    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    JBI... you beat me to the punch on Shakespeare and the continual charge of antisemitism... especially in relation to Dostoevsky. I also agree with your assertion as to his "detachment" or lack of judgment... especially on moral grounds... upon his characters. This was certainly the aspect of his work that Tolstoy railed against... that and the fact that he represented the sole figure that he knew he could never surpass on aesthetic terms... so he almost needed to attack him on moral grounds.
    Last edited by stlukesguild; 01-25-2009 at 11:57 PM.
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    Registered User semi-fly's Avatar
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    Can you cite the plays, etc. in which you believe William Shakespeare is being anti-Semitic? I've personally only read a few of his plays (specifically: Hamlet, King Lear, Midsummer Nights Dream, and Romeo & Juliet) and I believe I haven't come across anything considered anti-Semitic.
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    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Oh Atheist, I'm going to have to disagree. If you compare the level of drama and poetry of his peers in his era, you will see Shakespeare is head and shoulders above them. There never was anything quite like Shakespeare before him and frankly until the novel developed to capture the full psychological fullness of a character, there wasn't anyone to match him for centuries. As to the anti-semitism, the others have made an arguement that he wasn't. Not sure they are considering how anti-semitic Aaron of Titus Andronicus comes across. So Shakespeare was a man of his times. How is one to transcend certain things? No one in my opinion captures humanity as well as Shakespeare in his prime. And not just for one or two plays. There are literally a dozen to 18 plays that are shear masterpieces.
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    Registered User Zee.'s Avatar
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    Straying from the anti - Semitic comments and focusing on opinions and Shakespeare.

    I view Shakespeare's work like the people who the plays were originally written for. The plays written to be performed as just that, plays. A means for entertainment. And I personally do not enjoy his work. That being said, perhaps my opinion is more "valid" than the person ripping his work to shreds an analyzing the hell out of it. Because as the core of all of it, tragedy or comedy - they were a source of entertainment.

  9. #9
    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Yes, but he still is the most preformed dramatist, so clearly someone is entertained by him. Besides, we have a nice collection of poetry, which isn't drama, and is fantastic.

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    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    I would also note that while there are certain aspects of Shakespeare's plays that may benefit from live performance, there are others that demand reading.
    Beware of the man with just one book. -Ovid
    The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.- Mark Twain
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    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redzeppelin View Post
    People who wish to argue over this post are wasting their time. Authors are like food - everybody's got different taste.
    That's my point exactly. Won't stop them trying, though!

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    As such, Shylock is not a villain, merely a character, and a rather minor one at that. We must remember, he doesn't speak too many lines - though all his lines are too the point, and profound - and those which he does speak seem to make him more sympathetic if anything.
    You must be reading a different Merchant of Venice to the one I read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shylock
    I will buy with you, sell with you, talk with you,
    walk with you, and so following, but I will not eat
    with you, drink with you, nor pray with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shylock
    How like a fawning publican he looks!
    I hate him for he is a Christian,
    But more for that in low simplicity
    He lends out money gratis and brings down
    The rate of usance here with us in Venice.
    If I can catch him once upon the hip,
    I will feed fat the ancient grudge I bear him.
    He hates our sacred nation, and he rails,
    Even there where merchants most do congregate,
    On me, my bargains and my well-won thrift,
    Which he calls interest. Cursed be my tribe,
    If I forgive him!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shylock
    Express'd in the condition, let the forfeit
    Be nominated for an equal pound
    Of your fair flesh, to be cut off and taken
    In what part of your body pleaseth me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratiano
    Not on thy sole, but on thy soul, harsh Jew,
    Thou makest thy knife keen; but no metal can,
    No, not the hangman's axe, bear half the keenness
    Of thy sharp envy. Can no prayers pierce thee?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shylock
    These be the Christian husbands. I have a daughter;
    Would any of the stock of Barrabas
    Had been her husband rather than a Christian!
    Sympathetic? Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Shakespeare never seems to pass judgment on any of his characters - I think that is why he is so enduring - because he doesn't claim to show truths, only drama, and characters - that is probably the reason why he is still the most enduring of all English writers. No matter what tastes come, no matter what politics come, Shakespeare's detachment from his characters, in terms of morals, put him above almost every dramatist, in the sense that there is no answer, there are no notions of right or wrong, there is merely drama.
    What on earth is this?

    Shakespeare's plays, without the messages, are just meaningless bits of verse. The notions of right and wrong are central to his entire works!

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Really, people should read basic Shakespeare scholarship - especially if they intend to make accusations like anti-antisemitism.
    Patronising, and wrong. The anti-semitism is blatant.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Besides which, beloved Dostoevsky was a million times the anti-Semite that even most mainstream anti-Semites were. Look at, for instance, the great William Hazlitt's essay on Shylock, to get a sense of the scope of interpretation of Shakespeare's character.
    Ah, the old tu quoque!

    I don't like Dostoevsky either, but his anti-semitism still doesn't give Shakespeare a free pass on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by semi-fly View Post
    Can you cite the plays, etc. in which you believe William Shakespeare is being anti-Semitic? I've personally only read a few of his plays (specifically: Hamlet, King Lear, Midsummer Nights Dream, and Romeo & Juliet) and I believe I haven't come across anything considered anti-Semitic.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Oh Atheist, I'm going to have to disagree. If you compare the level of drama and poetry of his peers in his era, you will see Shakespeare is head and shoulders above them.
    Sure he was. I just don't think that applies any more - there are people far better able to express ideas and ideals to 2009 audiences than Billy S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    There never was anything quite like Shakespeare before him and frankly until the novel developed to capture the full psychological fullness of a character, there wasn't anyone to match him for centuries.
    Yep, and he should be rightly revered for that. I don't think that should extend to him having the place he does in Eng Lit in 2009.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    As to the anti-semitism, the others have made an arguement that he wasn't. Not sure they are considering how anti-semitic Aaron of Titus Andronicus comes across. So Shakespeare was a man of his times.
    Bingo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    How is one to transcend certain things? No one in my opinion captures humanity as well as Shakespeare in his prime. And not just for one or two plays. There are literally a dozen to 18 plays that are shear masterpieces.
    Well, I just disgaree here; I find most of his characters shallow and predictable. Take Lady McBeth as an example - she has no character development whatsoever, yet she is described as a foul beast or some such. I see Winnie the Pooh with more development - not to mention consistency!
    Last edited by The Atheist; 01-26-2009 at 03:05 AM. Reason: fix quotes
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Out of context, and not showing anything. It shows one character's inability to forgive, and turn the other cheek to a nation who has been abusing them for over a thousand years. Where is the antisemitism. Where does Shakespeare come out and say "I hate Jews" Where? It's an accusation without ground. Shylock is merely one character, and a particularly touching one, whose love for his daughter, and mistreatment, which is metaphorical for his "tribes" mistreatment, has led him to finally seek what he declares a "christian" would do. Where is the antisemitism?

    The truth is, we know nothing about Shakespeare, nothing. Everything is assumption - even his Sonnets display a negative reasoning, that is, a reasoning built on "this is not" rather than a "this is". We simply know virtually nothing, and to assume that he was an anti-Semite because you don't particularly like one play is your loss. Shakespeare will prevail, and, ironically, many of the greatest Bardolators have been Jewish. In truth, he is even taught in classrooms within Israel. You seem to be the only one who is ranting, on a thin argument. Shakespeare doesn't judge, because Shakespeare is outside of his works, he is invisible. The Plays follow conventions of drama, but there is no right and wrong. I think Iago's victory is proof enough of that.


    But of course, you won't address the most central arguments and quotes against you:

    Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.
    Last edited by JBI; 01-26-2009 at 01:22 AM.

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    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    The Atheist, please properly quote, I know you did it by accident, but I don't wish to have Virgil's excellent comments attributed to me. I don't want to get into the good or bad argument, as I am fed up with good and bad arguments, I merely wish to debate false assumptions, and false-truths.

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    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Out of context, and not showing anything. It shows one character's inability to forgive, and turn the other cheek to a nation who has been abusing them for over a thousand years. Where is the antisemitism. Where does Shakespeare come out and say "I hate Jews" Where? It's an accusation without ground. Shylock is merely one character, and a particularly touching one, whose love for his daughter, and mistreatment, which is metaphorical for his "tribes" mistreatment, has led him to finally seek what he declares a "christian" would do. Where is the antisemitism?
    Out of context? You want me to quote the entire play, or just link to it? I'd expect readers to be able to place them in context.

    Whether or not the antisemitism is intentional, or just the result of ignorance isn't the point - I'm not blaming Shakespeare for his apparent anti-semitism any more than I'd blame Darwin for his racism; he was a product of his world.

    The bad news is, that world's several hundred years gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    We simply know virtually nothing, and to assume that he was an anti-Semite because you don't particularly like one play is your loss.
    See above.

    As far as not liking it goes, that's just rubbish. I actually think TMOV is one of Billy's best efforts. I'd probably rate it in the top 100 books in English.

    Just.

    I'm not assuming anything about Shakespeare - I'm telling you what it says.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Shakespeare will prevail, and, ironically, many of the greatest Bardolators have been Jewish. In truth, he is even taught in classrooms within Israel. You seem to be the only one who is ranting, on a thin argument. Shakespeare doesn't judge, because Shakespeare is outside of his works, he is invisible. The Plays follow conventions of drama, but there is no right and wrong. I think Iago's victory is proof enough of that.


    But of course, you won't address the most central arguments and quotes against you:
    Have you asked the Israeli kids how they see Shakespeare? I'd be interested to know.

    As to what arguments I'm avoiding, I have no idea, so please let me know.

    The anti-semitism isn't the only reason for my dislike, in fact, it isn't even a major one.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    The Atheist, please properly quote, I know you did it by accident, but I don't wish to have Virgil's excellent comments attributed to me.
    Sorry, fixed.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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    I think you're being a little disingenuous here Atheist. Can you honestly tell me that you're not made to feel sympathy for Shylock with that classic speech? How is that being anti-semitic? Those words in the mouth of a great actor should move you immensely. I see it as a plea for tolerance. Shakespeare was telling it how it was, and Shylock's revenge, although brutal, is the act of someone pushed to the edge. You can love or loath Shakespeare as you wish, but please don't try to attack him unjustly.

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