Please Help

[zannie]

Hi There

I've really been struggling for the past few days with John Keats' ode "To Autumn" especially the last stanza.Here if goes:

"Where are the songs of Spring?Ay, where are they?
Think not of them, thou hast thy music too
While the barred clouds bloom the soft dying day,
And touch the stubble-plains with rosy hue,
'Then in a wailful choir the small gnats mourn
Among the river sallows, borne aloft
Or sinking as the light wind lives or dies;
And full grown lambs loud bleat from hilly bourne:
Hedge-crickets sing; and now woth treble soft
The redbreast whistles from a garden croft;
And gathering swallows twitter in the skies."

Okay the first line suggests that the speaker is longing for spring.Perhaps because "clouds bloom the soft-dying day" instead flowers that bloom in spring.Clouds are symbolic of darkness, gloomy...but what effect does this have on the poem.
The tone is dispodent e.g "AY, where are they"(line 1), and images of
"gnats mourning...wailing...dying day" all creates a mournful mood.But why, is there mourning?I don't know i just can't seem to capture the meaning.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

[mir]

i just see it as an idyllic portrayal of spring, not melancholy, but one of those days which isn't quite hot but pleasantly cool, maybe near a river or swamp; not a perfect day, so the poem isn't perfectly happy . . . maybe near the end of spring because of the "where is the song of spring" bit and the melancholy mood. it's a beautiful poem.

[Bandini]

Hi There


Okay the first line suggests that the speaker is longing for spring..

He is being dismissive of songs of spring - a reference to the Romantic's preoccupation with it. He prefers Autumn.

'Ay where are they?' Is like saying ' yeah - so what?'

The '...full grown lambs...' is also a, kind of ironic reference to this - why not say sheep!

"clouds bloom the soft-dying day" - suggesting they are as beautiful as the flowers of spring.


"gnats mourning...wailing...dying day" the gnats are mourning the passing of summer.

This stanza also appeals to the sense of hearing - the 'b's and 'l's echoing the lambs bleat, the crickets, swallows and Robin (which reminds us that Winter is on the way.

Anyhow - lunch over - must dash!

Good luck.

[zannie]

Thank you mir for the reply.

I should have perhaps given the whole poem, because that was just the 3rd stanza. The poem is an ode to Autumn.it being an ode to autumn it seems to me that the speaker is making some sort of a comparison between spring and autumn and my lecturer asked that we explore the contrast between spring and autumn, hence from my perspective autumn is represented to be "blooming with clouds" however we understand that spring blooms with flowers...As the poem develops in each stanza the representation of autumn changes for example in the first stanza autumn is "blessing with fruit the vines...swelling the gourds" images of harvest, ripiness etc, in stanza 2 however the representation of autumn changes, autumn is no longer active as in the first stanza,autumn is now Tranquil hence images of "sleep...drowsed" etc...the third stanza is what i want to get to...
overall the poem perhaps potrays changes in season as the stanzas develop.but i don't get the feel for the thrid stanza...perhaps autumn's come to an end...hence the images of "gnats mourning"...and a longing for spring..."where are the songs of spring".


Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness,
Close bosom-friend of the maturing sun;
Conspiring with him how to load and bless
With fruit the vines that round the thatch-eves run;
To bend with apples the moss'd cottage-trees,
And fill all fruit with ripeness to the core;
To swell the gourd, and plump the hazel shells
With a sweet kernel; to set budding more,
And still more, later flowers for the bees,
Until they think warm days will never cease,
For summer has o'er-brimm'd their clammy cells.
Who hath not seen thee oft amid thy store?

Sometimes whoever seeks abroad may find
Thee sitting careless on a granary floor,
Thy hair soft-lifted by the winnowing wind;
Or on a half-reap'd furrow sound asleep,
Drows'd with the fume of poppies, while thy hook
Spares the next swath and all its twined flowers:
And sometimes like a gleaner thou dost keep
Steady thy laden head across a brook;
Or by a cyder-press, with patient look,
Thou watchest the last oozings hours by hours.

Where are the songs of spring? Ay, where are they?
Think not of them, thou hast thy music too, -
While barred clouds bloom the soft-dying day,
And touch the stubble-plains with rosy hue;
Then in a wailful choir the small gnats mourn
Among the river sallows, borne aloft
Or sinking as the light wind lives or dies;
And full-grown lambs loud bleat from hilly bourn;
Hedge-crickets sing; and now with treble soft
The red-breat whistles from a garden-croft;
And gathering swallows twitter in the skies.

[zannie]

[QUOTE=Bandini]He is being dismissive of songs of spring - a reference to the Romantic's preoccupation with it. He prefers Autumn.

Thank you Bandid..this all makes sense. i suppose lambs are associated with innocence hence Jesus Christ is the Lamb...ties in with the romantics' sentimental nature.

I like what you say mir that this is "not a perfect day, so the poem isn't perfectly happy", one can see how the poem develops,the mood starts on a high and slowly detoriates...i suppose to the poet the process of nature is reflective of the cycle of our lives...the up and downs.

[Bandini]

i suppose to the poet the process of nature is reflective of the cycle of our lives...the up and downs.

Yes - and perhaps Keats is reflecting on the (premature) Autumn of his years? The funereal imagery of the gnats and the dying wind suggest both Autumn and Keats' passing?

[Grumbleguts]

The three stanzas each show an aspect of autumn.

The first links it closely to summer, implying that autumn is the fulfilment of summer, its coming to fruition.
The second shows the traditional jobs of summer through the poetic trick of personification, representing the people undertaking the tasks as if they were Autumn himself.
The third is a counter to the first and links autumn with the approach of winter.

Reread the poem with this in mind and I am sure that you will see many more of the references in it.

As Bandini says, Keats died young. Although he was in the springtime of his life in respect of his years he was also in the autumn in respect of his early death from TB.

However he did not have TB at the time that this poem was written in 1817. He contracted the condition while attending his dying brother the following year, so any allegory that exists is probably imposed upon the poem by the reader's hindsight. (Sorry Bandini.)

[Xamonas Chegwe]

You've got the first line of the second stanza stuck on the end of the first Zannie. there should be 11 lines in each. This won't make understanding it any easier.

[zannie]

thanks Xamonas...good observation Bandid but it's true that we need be careful that what we know about the writer does not cloud our analysis besides we need to separate the poet from the speaker...
Thank you all for your contributions...i'm new hear i actually lost the thread, had to do a search to find it...i'm not good with the rhythm thing, i can tell there is some Rhythm in the first stanza for example "with fruit the vines...bend with apples...i know there is a way to identify the rhythm/meter but i can't seem to grasp that...can someone help me identify the rhythm/meter in the poem...

[Loqurent]

The most often used meter; the iambic pentameter, which encompasses a large number of english poems.
Very simple: five 'feet': | ^ - | is one foot so the line is:

short long s l s l s l s l
^ _ ^_^_^_^_

[Bandini]

The three stanzas each show an aspect of autumn.

The first links it closely to summer, implying that autumn is the fulfilment of summer, its coming to fruition.
The second shows the traditional jobs of summer through the poetic trick of personification, representing the people undertaking the tasks as if they were Autumn himself.
The third is a counter to the first and links autumn with the approach of winter.

Reread the poem with this in mind and I am sure that you will see many more of the references in it.

As Bandini says, Keats died young. Although he was in the springtime of his life in respect of his years he was also in the autumn in respect of his early death from TB.

However he did not have TB at the time that this poem was written in 1817. He contracted the condition while attending his dying brother the following year, so any allegory that exists is probably imposed upon the poem by the reader's hindsight. (Sorry Bandini.)

He could have had a subconscious insight! OK point taken. I sort of knew that might be the case - but it sounded so good.

[Bandini]

thanks Xamonas...good observation Bandid but it's true that we need be careful that what we know about the writer does not cloud our analysis

Perhaps - received wisdom, but I'm not always so sure.

[mono]

Where are the songs of Spring?Ay, where are they?
Think not of them, thou hast thy music too
While the barred clouds bloom the soft dying day,
And touch the stubble-plains with rosy hue,
'Then in a wailful choir the small gnats mourn
Among the river sallows, borne aloft
Or sinking as the light wind lives or dies;
And full grown lambs loud bleat from hilly bourne:
Hedge-crickets sing; and now woth treble soft
The redbreast whistles from a garden croft;
And gathering swallows twitter in the skies.

Ah, I love Keats, never growing tired of his verse!
In my opinion, you really seem on the correct track in interpretation, zannie, but, yes, neither of the Romantics seem necessarily easy to understand.
From the first few lines, yes, I agree, Keats longs for spring to arrive, when everything, in essence, comes back to life from the cold, barren winter. Notice, however, how Keats refers to the "songs of Spring" in the first line, yet refers to his own "music," too. Keats merely compares his melancholic perspective of everyday life with what seems the opposite - spring. Pay much attention to the undertones of death and less pleasant words, such as "wailful choir," "lambs loud bleat," and "gathering swallow twitter" - all of them carry an element of struggle, weakness, and vulnerability. Most of all, the "music" of which Keats refers to in the second line refers to these elements; in essence, despite the seemingly depressing atmosphere, he attempts seeing the bleak life in his surroundings, the "music," though he yearns for spring.

[Bandini]

I really don't see any yearning for Spring. I see only a dismissal of those who yearn for it. Can you point out where he yearns for Spring?

[Bysshe]

Ah, this is interesting - we started studying this poem in English at school today...

I can't see him yearning for Spring, either.

"Where are the songs of Spring?Ay, where are they?
Think not of them, thou hast thy music too"

It seems to be fairly dismissive of Spring, and as far as I can see, it's only focusing on Autumn's beauty. There's some negative imagery, especially in the third stanza, but I don't think that's because he's yearning for Spring.

Still, what do I know? - I'm only fourteen and I know very little about Keats or poetry.