Did God create evil?

[IceM]

Yes, it would be evil. But that evil is not on par with God. I am only arguing that Evil is not a "being" like Good is. I have a post a few lines up that gives a more detailed response to your question.

Alas, Evil does not have to be on par with God to still suggest He created it. Consider this: God gave us the ingredients necessary to create a vaccine for the seasonal flu; that doesn't mean the flu still isn't deadly--in some cases, the vaccine is stronger than the virus, and sometimes the contrary holds true. Just because the depths of evil aren't as expansive as those of good doesn't mean evil still has divine origins. I take your "on par with God" analogy as just a suggestion that pure good brings one closer to par with God than pure evil can distance oneself from Him. While not equal on His scale, that doesn't eliminate whether or not He created it.

[Manalive]

Alas, Evil does not have to be on par with God to still suggest He created it. Consider this: God gave us the ingredients necessary to create a vaccine for the seasonal flu; that doesn't mean the flu still isn't deadly--in some cases, the vaccine is stronger than the virus, and sometimes the contrary holds true. Just because the depths of evil aren't as expansive as those of good doesn't mean evil still has divine origins. I take your "on par with God" analogy as just a suggestion that pure good brings one closer to par with God than pure evil can distance oneself from Him. While not equal on His scale, that doesn't eliminate whether or not He created it.

It does eliminate it. If evil is not a "thing" or a "being" then he did not create it. From a Catholic Christian perspective God did not create Evil. He only created Good. This good ranks from the Supreme Good all the way down to the lowest good. If you want to believe in dualism I suggest looking into Zoroastrianism.

You're arguing against the ying/yang duality by pointing out how even a murder has some good in it too. It appears to me as if you're arguing for it. That's what's unclear to me.

Well let's have your opinion on it mate. It seems to me from your point of view that you don't believe in ying/yang nor my assessment of Good vs. Evil. I want to hear what you believe now.

From an earlier post of mine:

Augustine observed that evil could not be chosen because there is no evil thing to choose. One can only turn away from the good, that is from a greater good to a lesser good (in Augustine's hierarchy) since all things are good. 'For when the will abandons what is above itself, and turns to what is lower, it becomes evil--not because that is evil to which it turns, but because the turning itself is wicked.

You're exactly right I'm arguing that a murderer receives pleasure from the act of murder he commits. There is no innate "evil" feeling he gets from it. There is no "Good vs. Evil" battle like you get in Star Wars. No Jedi's using the force to combat evil sith lords or what have you. We all agree that murder is an evil act, but to the murderer he's still getting a "good" out of it. He gets pleasure out of it. The last I remember pleasure is a feeling that feels good-- not evil. Give me an example of an evil feeling, that is, purely 100% evil. We're arguing in religious terms though, if that's possible for you.

Technically, nothing in biology cares whether the caterpillar population goes down or not, it's all about the genes themselves, no romantic 'good of the species' or 'good of the ecosystem'. There are interesting examples to illustrate this, but since you don't consider non-human animals relevant, let's turn to humans.

Then what is your point if it doesn't matter? Don't ask me about wasps and caterpillars if it doesn't matter. If it all comes down to genes then why do you care about a religious question having to do with the origin of Evil? It sounds like a topic for a different time mate. I'm not interested in the "how" of these things, but the "why". This is why I usually hate scientific questions in regards to religious matters. They're not of the same category-- I'm not going to ask a mathematician to grade me on an English paper having to do with Shakespeare and vice versa.

The Bible makes it very clear that homosexuality is a sin. Sin is evil. Genes determine to a great extent an individual's sexual orientation. Studies with identical twins raised separately have shown this, people are born gay. Do you see the problem?

I do, brother. The problem is gay people can't reproduce. It's not a normal thing. The act of homosexuality itself is the sin. Not the homosexual. Any more bible thumpers?


Now it's my turn for a few questions: I want you to take me back to the beginning of the cosmos. And then I want you to take me back just one minute before the universe began and tell me what was there? What set this whole thing into motion? I want something scientific and factual. I'd like to see the man behind the curtain-- or I mean the evolution that started this whole existence into being. What started this evolution into motion? Can biology or any science answer this for me? What was there before there was an organism that was aware that it was alive or that it functioned?

[IceM]

It does eliminate it. If evil is not a "thing" or a "being" then he did not create it. From a Catholic Christian perspective God did not create Evil. He only created Good. This good ranks from the Supreme Good all the way down to the lowest good. If you want to believe in dualism I suggest looking into Zoroastrianism.


You're exactly right I'm arguing that a murderer receives pleasure from the act of murder he commits. There is no innate "evil" feeling he gets from it. There is no "Good vs. Evil" battle like you get in Star Wars. No Jedi's using the force to combat evil sith lords or what have you. We all agree that murder is an evil act, but to the murderer he's still getting a "good" out of it. He gets pleasure out of it. The last I remember pleasure is a feeling that feels good-- not evil. Give me an example of an evil feeling, that is, purely 100% evil. We're arguing in religious terms though, if that's possible for you.


Now it's my turn for a few questions: I want you to take me back to the beginning of the cosmos. And then I want you to take me back just one minute before the universe began and tell me what was there? What set this whole thing into motion? I want something scientific and factual. I'd like to see the man behind the curtain-- or I mean the evolution that started this whole existence into being. What started this evolution into motion? Can biology or any science answer this for me? What was there before there was an organism that was aware that it was alive or that it functioned?

I start (read: create) a fire. The flame creates heat. I get warm. Suppose I put out the fire. The heat goes away. I get cold. By creating the fire, I create the possibility of warmth, as well as the possibility of becoming cold if I put out my fire.

Then, I donate money to a homeless person in dire need. He uses the money to buy essentials. I did a good thing. Suppose later I walk down the street and kill a man. I have taken his life and scarred his family. That is evil. It doesn't matter whether or not I find "good" or "pleasure" in this action, because, in the eyes of the 10 Commandments, I have defied God's laws, which is evil.

Understand my analogies? By creating heat, you create the possibility of being cold. By creating light, you create the possibility of finding darkness. By creating good, you create the opportunity to defy good (evil). God gave Man ten laws (the ten commandments); God also created Hell. People who break the religious law go to Hell because they have sinned. If everyone were "good," nobody would go to Hell, because, even if people committed lesser goods or minimal goods, they were still "good" actions, and would not be deserving of eternal damnation. To say God did not create evil would essentially say there is no Hell because there would be no need for eternal damnation.

And in regards to the "big bang" questioning, you're trying to draw this argument to a draw. Just as you ask what was there the moment before the explosion, I could ask you how God just came to be; and we both know our reasoning would seem radical to each other but perfectly sane to us. Your ability to defend your point has proven itself limited far more beyond mine; and while you'll probably claim faith in a higher power as the total answer, it doesn't answer anything here. If God, as you claim, created the Supreme Good, He also created the Supreme Evil. Satan exists, and he didn't create himself. Sin exists. The ten commandments present laws that can easily be broken by those who disregard them. And if any of those two prior statements are simply considered "lesser goods," then there is nothing barring us from Heaven, because no matter how petty the goodness may seem, it is still good nonetheless.

I respect your opinions and everything you've said, but your Supreme Goodness argument doesn't explain Hell, Sin, what happens with the violation of the 10 Commandments, Satan, or Adam and Eve's banishment (everything considered evil in Christian theology). It appears as if you're claiming to believe in a one-sided coin.

[Manalive]

I start (read: create) a fire. The flame creates heat. I get warm. Suppose I put out the fire. The heat goes away. I get cold. By creating the fire, I create the possibility of warmth, as well as the possibility of becoming cold if I put out my fire.

Then, I donate money to a homeless person in dire need. He uses the money to buy essentials. I did a good thing. Suppose later I walk down the street and kill a man. I have taken his life and scarred his family. That is evil. It doesn't matter whether or not I find "good" or "pleasure" in this action, because, in the eyes of the 10 Commandments, I have defied God's laws, which is evil.

Understand my analogies? By creating heat, you create the possibility of being cold. By creating light, you create the possibility of finding darkness. By creating good, you create the opportunity to defy good (evil). God gave Man ten laws (the ten commandments); God also created Hell. People who break the religious law go to Hell because they have sinned. If everyone were "good," nobody would go to Hell, because, even if people committed lesser goods or minimal goods, they were still "good" actions, and would not be deserving of eternal damnation. To say God did not create evil would essentially say there is no Hell because there would be no need for eternal damnation.

And in regards to the "big bang" questioning, you're trying to draw this argument to a draw. Just as you ask what was there the moment before the explosion, I could ask you how God just came to be; and we both know our reasoning would seem radical to each other but perfectly sane to us. Your ability to defend your point has proven itself limited far more beyond mine; and while you'll probably claim faith in a higher power as the total answer, it doesn't answer anything here. If God, as you claim, created the Supreme Good, He also created the Supreme Evil. Satan exists, and he didn't create himself. Sin exists. The ten commandments present laws that can easily be broken by those who disregard them. And if any of those two prior statements are simply considered "lesser goods," then there is nothing barring us from Heaven, because no matter how petty the goodness may seem, it is still good nonetheless.

I respect your opinions and everything you've said, but your Supreme Goodness argument doesn't explain Hell, Sin, what happens with the violation of the 10 Commandments, Satan, or Adam and Eve's banishment (everything considered evil in Christian theology). It appears as if you're claiming to believe in a one-sided coin.

Your argument doesn't explain free will. God cannot be good if he knowingly created evil. Simple as that.

God created Satan. He gave him free will. Satan used that free will and he defied God.

I'm only arguing against the "Star Wars" theme of the nature of Good and Evil. God is good, if you turn away from God, you sin. If you are not repentant you are damned. You cannot go off and "join the dark side" and then start living an "Evil" life full of only purely evil things. The turning away from God to something lesser is what is wicked (or evil). That's where Hell and sin come in.


And thank you for answering the question I posed to him. Can you tell me what point you were talking about in regards to this question? You said "Your ability to defend your point has proven itself limited far more beyond mine". What point of yours are you talking about? I posed to him that question so he could give me a better reason to believe in Atheistic evolution rather than God. I'm sorry if you got some other message out of it.

And I do believe in a one-sided coin, my friend. It's either God or it's nothing.

(And by nothing I mean hell, I'm not the annihilationist/Jehovah Witness type)

[blazeofglory]

This is an illogical and immature idea that free will exists. If God is really powerful and permeates all animate and inanimate substances in the universe why he does not change the mind of Satan. Is it just a cosmic or divine drama and we all are puppets in the Hand of the Great Heavenly Father? How do you define or relate free will logically? Do external factors not influence the way we behave? Can man always stand by ethical and religious codes of conduct and behave immaculately? This is one of the tools atheists or those who stick to organized religions trying to defend themselves in the age of reason and science in point of fact. There are other religious theorists in other nations who totally subscribe to determinism. In Hinduism they believe in determinism and man sins because his destiny overpowers him. In the Mahabharata, Krishna explains to Arjuna precisely when the latter wanted to withdraw from the battlefield since killing a Grandfather, a Guru, an Uncle is a great sin. Arjuna was firm and not to give on anything. Finally Krishna illuminated his mind through his divine theories and stated that neither Arjuna can slay a person nor anybody will be slain. There is a divine hand in every act. Does this not endorse the divine play and we mortals are just tolls? Where is your free will gone?

[Dodo25]

You're exactly right I'm arguing that a murderer receives pleasure from the act of murder he commits. There is no innate "evil" feeling he gets from it. There is no "Good vs. Evil" battle like you get in Star Wars. No Jedi's using the force to combat evil sith lords or what have you. We all agree that murder is an evil act, but to the murderer he's still getting a "good" out of it. He gets pleasure out of it. The last I remember pleasure is a feeling that feels good-- not evil. Give me an example of an evil feeling, that is, purely 100% evil. We're arguing in religious terms though, if that's possible for you.

Yes it's possible, I can hypothetically assume that the Bible is true. I already said sin is evil, and if god creates humans that are born homosexual, they're evil in nature. Perversely, if they fall in love, normally god's favorite feeling, they are being evil and according to the Bible, need to reject this love. If I may quickly jump out of my hypothetical assumption, it is God's hatred against homosexuals that is evil. Or his reward for people like Ghandi who don't believe in god (eternal hellfire).

Then what is your point if it doesn't matter? Don't ask me about wasps and caterpillars if it doesn't matter. If it all comes down to genes then why do you care about a religious question having to do with the origin of Evil? It sounds like a topic for a different time mate. I'm not interested in the "how" of these things, but the "why". This is why I usually hate scientific questions in regards to religious matters. They're not of the same category-- I'm not going to ask a mathematician to grade me on an English paper having to do with Shakespeare and vice versa.

It doesn't matter to me, because I don't hold views about a benevolent creator. It should matter to you because it contradicts some important passages from the Bible. And saying 'religion and science aren't the same category' is of course true, yet your having it the wrong way around. Science has the evidence on its side, so religion can't just ignore science and the implications it brings.

I do, brother. The problem is gay people can't reproduce. It's not a normal thing. The act of homosexuality itself is the sin. Not the homosexual. Any more bible thumpers?

Still you contend that god 'created' beings with permanently evil thoughts. This would really bother me if I was a Christian. "It's not a normal thing." So?? First of all, many primates do it too, look at bonobos, they have sex with any other bonobo pretty much (I don't mean this offensively towards bonobos by the way). Additionally, what exactly is 'normal'? I recently saw a chimp forcing a toad/frog to have oral sex with it. Is that normal? Even if was 'unnatural', so what? Nature can't tell us what is ethical, think back to the wasps. We use condom, a very unnatural thing. Yet are you seriously going to advocate banning condoms? I know some Catholics do, and the result is millions of people in Africa dying of HIV, and the population explosion just brings more suffering to this world.

Now it's my turn for a few questions: I want you to take me back to the beginning of the cosmos. And then I want you to take me back just one minute before the universe began and tell me what was there? What set this whole thing into motion? I want something scientific and factual. I'd like to see the man behind the curtain-- or I mean the evolution that started this whole existence into being. What started this evolution into motion? Can biology or any science answer this for me? What was there before there was an organism that was aware that it was alive or that it functioned?

Fair enough. The term 'minute' doesn't have a bearing before the big bang, for time as we know it did not exist. I don't know what exactly happened, the thing is, I don't claim I do.

My hypothesis (as it is shared by many particle physicists working on it) is that it started as fluctuations of energy. Matter and anti-matter annihilating itself most of the time, yet in statistically rare circumstances, there is not enough anti-matter and it produces a big bang. The name of the phenomenon I'm talking about is the 'Casimir Effect'. Even a 'perfect' vacuum is not entirely empty, there are particles popping in and out of existance all the time. A better way to describe it is if we assume that 'zero' or 'nothing' just doesn't exist apart from pure mathematics. There is always this quantum action going on.

Anyway, somehow, and I'm admitting I have no idea how or why, this set off the big bang. One out of billions of big bangs (and for this there is actually some scientific (or mathematical in string-theory) evidence, albeit not conclusive one (yet). The reason why are universe is life-friendly is thus only a matter of statistics. There are probably billions of dead universes, we just happen to be in one that permits life, for we're here talking about it.

I admitted 'I don't know', so why am I satisfied with this answer? I'm not 100% satisfied, I would love to know more. Yet I know for sure that God doesn't solve the problem.

How could you think postulating an incredibly complex conscious being would solve the problem? It is much easier to explain where the universe came from
(and even that is hard) than where God came from. God, with all his powers, is statistically improbable to 'just happen' to the highest degree. The beginn must have been something simple (relatively speaking of course). If we only need to postulate matter and energy, that is one thing compared to consciousness itself. The human mind wonders 'why are we here', 'why are we conscious?' and then postulates another super-conscious being to solve the problem? Not only this, it also took away all the time for evolution the human mind had, and postulates consciousness from the very beginning. This didn't solve the problem at all, it made it much worse.

[IceM]

Your argument doesn't explain free will. God cannot be good if he knowingly created evil. Simple as that.

God created Satan. He gave him free will. Satan used that free will and he defied God.

I'm only arguing against the "Star Wars" theme of the nature of Good and Evil. God is good, if you turn away from God, you sin. If you are not repentant you are damned. You cannot go off and "join the dark side" and then start living an "Evil" life full of only purely evil things. The turning away from God to something lesser is what is wicked (or evil). That's where Hell and sin come in.


And thank you for answering the question I posed to him. Can you tell me what point you were talking about in regards to this question? You said "Your ability to defend your point has proven itself limited far more beyond mine". What point of yours are you talking about? I posed to him that question so he could give me a better reason to believe in Atheistic evolution rather than God. I'm sorry if you got some other message out of it.

And I do believe in a one-sided coin, my friend. It's either God or it's nothing.

(And by nothing I mean hell, I'm not the annihilationist/Jehovah Witness type)

In regards to the science question first: your point was to explain scientifically that the big bang is more fact-based than God's creationism. My point was to say that, you know this cannot be factually proven, and in asking this question, are trying to cause a stalemate in this debate. Because, just as easily, I could ask you a similar series of questions that have no definitive answer, and we would be gasping at air. Our answers would seem logical to ourselves and irrational to each other.

I'll be brief. As you say, turning away from God is evil, but it isn't descending into something lesser--like a lesser good--but instead an evil. In the eyes of the sinner defying the Ten Commandments, he is doing good; but it is not the sinner who decides his afterlife destination--meaning, he cannot decide to murder his entire life and send himself to Heaven. That judgment is reserved for God. The sinner is not doing lesser goods, because that would still be "good" and worthy of entrance into Heaven, but evil, meriting his damnation in Hell.

I will defend you on free will because blaze has a misinterpretation. I consider free will as an airplane flying over a highway and seeing the infinite number of roads stemming from it; just because God knows the results for each of the infinite paths you could take doesn't mean that he forces you anywhere. You choose your own path. He knows the consequences. The Sisters of Fate aren't weaving your destiny.

However, as I have BEEN saying, by creating good (and the opportunity to do evil), you create evil. Evil does not have to be as equal as good in order for God to have created it. It was still created nonetheless.

[hellsapoppin]

''This is an illogical and immature idea that free will exists. ''

We had a discussion on this before -- if free will exists then a fetus can walk away from an abortion, victims could have walked away from Hitler's death camps, and slaves could walk away from slavery. They didn't because free will does not exist. But if people choose to believe in the myth of free will that is their choice, not a fact.

[LMK]

If one is talking theistically about God, either as one God, or the conglomeration of pantheistic Gods, then I would suggest, Yes, God the creator, created all, excluding nothing. However, this can quickly turn circular should one choose to make it so.

Free will, in this poster's opinion, does not indicate super power that allows me to will a bullet away from it's aim and trajectory, or that one can choose to fly.

Is it better to have good intensions or for end result to be good?
Is one person better than another if they live the same life of loving, giving, kindness; even if one is a believer and the other is not?

There are endless questions that can be asked similarly, and just because they can be asked, does that mean we should ask them?

[Manalive]

I'll be brief. As you say, turning away from God is evil, but it isn't descending into something lesser--like a lesser good--but instead an evil. In the eyes of the sinner defying the Ten Commandments, he is doing good; but it is not the sinner who decides his afterlife destination--meaning, he cannot decide to murder his entire life and send himself to Heaven. That judgment is reserved for God. The sinner is not doing lesser goods, because that would still be "good" and worthy of entrance into Heaven, but evil, meriting his damnation in Hell.

However, as I have BEEN saying, by creating good (and the opportunity to do evil), you create evil. Evil does not have to be as equal as good in order for God to have created it. It was still created nonetheless.

Everything God has created is inherently good. Since evil is not good, it cannot have been "created" by God. There is no way around this in Church theology. Evil is not a "thing". It does not have being, and it doesn't "exist". Evil is a privation of something that should be present but is not. Sin is not directly choosing something bad, but it is choosing a lesser good when there is another greater good that should have been chosen. In your example the sinner doing the lesser goods would merit hell because he chose the "lesser good" rather than the greater good. He didn't chose "evil" as a option in equal contrast to good because "evil" does not have a being.

[IceM]

Everything God has created is inherently good. Since evil is not good, it cannot have been "created" by God. There is no way around this in Church theology. Evil is not a "thing". It does not have being, and it doesn't "exist". Evil is a privation of something that should be present but is not. Sin is not directly choosing something bad, but it is choosing a lesser good when there is another greater good that should have been chosen. In your example the sinner doing the lesser goods would merit hell because he chose the "lesser good" rather than the greater good. He didn't chose "evil" as a option in equal contrast to good because "evil" does not have a being.

In Church theology, there is also no way around the story of Adam and Eve, even though it'd be genetically impossible for every known ethnicity to derive from two people.

God created the Ten Commandments because He saw these laws as "inherently good." Defying these laws allow the felon to turn away from God. He (the sinner) has turned away from God. He has turned away from good. He is evil. After all, if an arsonist ran through the rain forest destroying what God considered "inherently good," he would be committing an "inherent evil:" turning away from God.

[Manalive]

In Church theology, there is also no way around the story of Adam and Eve, even though it'd be genetically impossible for every known ethnicity to derive from two people.

Yes, regardless of what secular scientists may speculate about human origins, the Catholic Church believes in Adam and Eve. Some take it literal; some take it metaphysically. That said, I don't see the "Out of Africa" theory as genetically impossible-- but again-- these are natural sciences theories; not theology. As long as a Catholic believes in the "Fall of Man" and "Original sin", then a literary, metaphysical interpretation of Genesis is permissible. Suffice to say, Catholic theology provides a structure in which the belief in Adam and Eve makes sense, given the foundational system in which the question arises. This is all I will say on the matter, the question isn't relevant to "Did God create Evil".

God created the Ten Commandments because He saw these laws as "inherently good." Defying these laws allow the felon to turn away from God. He (the sinner) has turned away from God. He has turned away from good. He is evil. After all, if an arsonist ran through the rain forest destroying what God considered "inherently good," he would be committing an "inherent evil:" turning away from God.

Breakthrough! (If we agree that "inherent evil" is the turning away from God, not the turning to the "dark side/Evil".)


By the way: are you some secular evolutionist or a quasi-Christian of some sort? Your initial posts on specific Church doctrine led me to believe you were a Protestant. However, your recent posts aren't quite of the Christian viewpoint.

[blazeofglory]

In fact God is the maker of everything according to some theologies and since God created everything how come everything does not include evil. If God is not the creator who is? Maybe God created evil on purpose to punish humans. Is this a good motive or right thing to do for God? Why God created us and wants us in troubles?

[caddy_caddy]

God created everything including evil.
Well Haribol there is a wisdom behind everything .

[blazeofglory]

If there is wisdom behind everything, is the disaster, the flood in Pakistan that killed 1500 people has some wisdom? Is God right to kill the Innocent? Is God right to punish the poor and reward the culprit? This is hard to understand and in fact I fail to understand.

Mother Teresa, the indisputable person of great charity at the end of her life questioned the very existence of benevolent God. She famously said that if there was a god, and if the God was merciful too, why there were so many poor people and why the few rich and corrupt are advantaged in the kingdom of God. She failed to understand this.

Some adherents of God advocate that the world was created by God and all that God did was for the benefit of his creatures. But this is untrue.

There is no cosmic justice and the mighty have the dominance over the weak in this world.

We follow a particular faith based on our superstitious notion of God. We have Adam, Eve, Abraham, Gabriel and the like. In other religions there are Allah, Buddha, Vishnu. There is Confucianism, Taoisms, Jainism, Zen and the like and all have their own theologies and they fabricate their own sets of theories. As everyone has his own ego, so does every religious group has their own dogmas.

Therefore I question the very basis of creation and I am not convinced that any bigotry's ideas can be right at all. I infer that Darwinism is more convincing. Religious opinions have fragmented and annihilated the human race than irreligious opinions. If there was no religion the world would have behaved better. At least there would have not been fundamentalists who force indoctrinate people to behave violently.